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The Great Op Debate


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#41 adamts01

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 11:52 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 January 2018 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'd just run the 78 alpha Hellbringer instead. Same speed, same ECM, better cooling and hardpoints. And doesn't die to sneeze.
Of course a heavy is better than a light, this is MWO after all. It's just ridiculous that power creep has come this far.

#42 FupDup

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 12:19 PM

View Postadamts01, on 10 January 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

Of course a heavy is better than a light, this is MWO after all. It's just ridiculous that power creep has come this far.

It's not even power creep in this situation. It's the base mechanics taken out of Battletech TT. The core advantage of light mechs is that they can achieve high speeds using smaller and efficient engine sizes compared to the big boys who get "taxed" if they want to go turbo speed (i.e. compare Gargoyle to Clan heavies).

The problem is that the engine tonnage/speed curve has diminishing returns from both directions; you get a mathematically and objectively bad deal if you go too big (i.e. XL400 on the Gargles) but you also get a very bad deal if you go too small (i.e. the Cougar). Going as low in the engine ratings as the Cougar does not only prevents it from outmaneuvering mechs above its size, but it also doesn't even give it any worthwhile pod space in exchange.

When you're that low on the engine spectrum, each downgrade of 5 ratings has only a tiny benefit of tonnage but a huge loss of speed. There comes a point when you can lose 10-20 kph for just 0.5 extra tons. Literally, the Cougar could go up to a Clan XL195 (from 175) at the cost of 0.5 tons and gain about 9 kph of speed from it.

The only way to fix it without rebuilding the entire construction system (and rebuilding all stock mechs as a result) is to give the Cougar artificial, extrinsic buffs (quirks) to counteract its weaknesses because it does not have any intrinsic/innate strengths under our current construction system.

#43 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 12:40 PM

View Postoneda, on 10 January 2018 - 06:36 AM, said:

I like harder, more ruthless, manly games.

Id make the game brutal. Hard.

Thats where the real fun starts.

Just start deleting any 'mech that gets destroyed in a match, to simulate perma-death.

Brutal difficulty achieved.

#44 FupDup

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 12:41 PM

View PostJay Leon Hart, on 10 January 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:

Just start deleting any 'mech that gets destroyed in a match, to simulate perma-death.

Brutal difficulty achieved.

Any headshot kills should result in a permanent account ban because your pilot died.

#45 adamts01

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 12:45 PM

View PostFupDup, on 10 January 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

It's not even power creep in this situation. It's the base mechanics taken out of Battletech TT.
Just because this game's power creep mirrors Battletech's power creep doesn't mean that it isn't power creep.

#46 FupDup

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 12:48 PM

View Postadamts01, on 10 January 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

Just because this game's power creep mirrors Battletech's power creep doesn't mean that it isn't power creep.

The Cougar was released in both MWO and BT later than a lot of the mechs it gets compared to and yet it still falls short. Power creep would imply that the more recently released unit would be the better unit...The Cougs is power regression if anything.

#47 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 12:53 PM

View PostFupDup, on 10 January 2018 - 12:41 PM, said:

Any headshot kills should result in a permanent account ban because your pilot died.

Of course, I thought that was implied?

#48 adamts01

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 08:02 PM

View PostFupDup, on 10 January 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

The Cougar was released in both MWO and BT later than a lot of the mechs it gets compared to and yet it still falls short. Power creep would imply that the more recently released unit would be the better unit...The Cougs is power regression if anything.
If the Cougar with its 74 point alpha were in Beta, there would have been a **** storm.

#49 El Bandito

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 08:56 PM

View Postadamts01, on 10 January 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

Of course a heavy is better than a light, this is MWO after all. It's just ridiculous that power creep has come this far.


I suppose Cougar's low tonnage can be an asset when you play GQ or FP. Other than that...

#50 Relishcakes

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 10:18 PM

View Postadamts01, on 10 January 2018 - 08:02 PM, said:

If the Cougar with its 74 point alpha were in Beta, there would have been a **** storm.

The cougar and its 74pt alpha was in the beta...they released it at the same time as the tech upgrade. Thus far theres only been a **** fall.

Edit: corrected the auto correction, correctly this time.

Edited by Relishcakes, 10 January 2018 - 10:19 PM.


#51 Yosharian

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 10:21 PM

View PostRelishcakes, on 10 January 2018 - 10:18 PM, said:

The cougar and its 74pt alpha was in the beta...they released it at the same time as the tech upgrade. Thus far theres only been a **** fall.

Edit: corrected the auto correction, correctly this time.

What the heck are you talking about

#52 Judah Malganis

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 10:24 PM

The reason why most players feel that certain mechs are OP is due to inherent differences in the tech bases. As others pointed out, it's carry over from table top. Works well there since IS makes up for it by usually fielding more mechs than its Clan opponent. Doesn't work so well in the game when IS mechs feel inferior. They should focus on making the tech bases feel different but wind up having similar performance. As it is, Clan is usually the clear winner in a discussion.

IS weapons weight more, do less damage, and have less range. Could have been fixed by allowing IS weapons to do better sustained DPS, so like "hey your MCII-1 with 2 Gauss, 2 HLL and 2 HML can 86 alpha twice? Cool. My Mauler with 2 Gauss and 6 ML can hit for 60 three times in the same time span."-type balancing, as an example. Adding to that, when they nerf a Clan item, they usually nerf its IS counterpart to ensure no one feels left out, and the gap remains.

IS heat sinks, compared to Clan ones, take up more space in mechs that are already usually starved for slots due to IS gear being more bulky, so they should be much better individually, but they're really not, which further cuts into their ability to sustain DPS.

XL is deadly for IS mechs, but they don't see a benefit. Some of that has been made up via light engines, but most players feel there should be some perk to using XL in an IS mech, since the risk is great. I kind of agree.

They've quirked IS mechs to make up some of the gap, but it's not enough usually. Some mechs work very well, but most are pretty subpar. Usually, instead of adding more buffs to subpar mechs, they just go back and nerf the ones that do well. Clan mechs don't tend to have good quirks, but it's almost immaterial. Most are omni, so by swapping pods, a single CT can have a ton of different pod configurations. At least a few will be ridiculously awesome in most cases.

TL:DR

They didn't do a good job of balancing tech bases, and they balance by nerfing, which always leads to a new weapon becoming New OP Flavor Till Next Patch.

#53 Relishcakes

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 10:58 PM

View PostYosharian, on 10 January 2018 - 10:21 PM, said:

What the heck are you talking about

Dude said had there been a build with cougars having a 74pt alpha in beta people would have lost their minds. I pointed out that its been able to do so for its entire lifespan(that i know of) but instead of people losing it over such a horrifying damage per ton people have for the most part just kind of **** on the cougar because of its armor, speed, and hitboxes. Hell in my opinion the hate for this thing is shadowed only by the disappointment in the uziel from everything that has ever played a video game.

#54 adamts01

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:10 AM

View PostRelishcakes, on 10 January 2018 - 10:58 PM, said:

Dude said had there been a build with cougars having a 74pt alpha in beta people would have lost their minds. I pointed out that its been able to do so for its entire lifespan(that i know of) but instead of people losing it over such a horrifying damage per ton people have for the most part just kind of **** on the cougar because of its armor, speed, and hitboxes. Hell in my opinion the hate for this thing is shadowed only by the disappointment in the uziel from everything that has ever played a video game.
I'm talking about Beta as in pre-release of the game. The Jenner was very lethal with its 30 point alpha, the Centurion with 48 was a monster when it got close, and the Atlas with 68 was terrifying. The Cougar is underwhelming these days because 60-70 point laser alphas are everywhere. Plus it runs insanely hot at 74 points. It's very cool running at 42, and ice cold at 35, and that's not bad for such a small ECM mech with great hit boxes that people just don't notice, but it's nothing to really write home about. The point is how out of hand mechs have gotten with damage. Just look at assaults, double the firepower of an Atlas is standard. All of that pinpoint damage is the reason this game can't be balanced, and why we're stuck with this timid gameplay of peaking till one side has an unbeatable advantage.

#55 Kanil

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:44 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 January 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:


I suppose Cougar's low tonnage can be an asset when you play GQ or FP. Other than that...

Matters in QP too, doesn't it? You bring the Hellbringer, you're going to be going up against the other team's Night Gyr or something. Run a Cougar and the other team will have like a Cheetah or a Wolfhound instead.

The example's less awkward when you consider a slow 40 tonner. Is a laser vomit Arctic Wolf a thing? 5 more tons probably doesn't offset the potential of the other team having a HBK IIC.

Edited by Kanil, 11 January 2018 - 02:45 AM.


#56 adamts01

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:57 AM

View PostKanil, on 11 January 2018 - 02:44 AM, said:

Matters in QP too, doesn't it? You bring the Hellbringer, you're going to be going up against the other team's Night Gyr or something. Run a Cougar and the other team will have like a Cheetah or a Wolfhound instead.

The example's less awkward when you consider a slow 40 tonner. Is a laser vomit Arctic Wolf a thing? 5 more tons probably doesn't offset the potential of the other team having a HBK IIC.

It's basically a free medium mech. But I'd rather have a Hellbringer than a Night Gyr, any time. It puts out the same alpha without taking any return fire, plus the team gets ECM. These stupid nerfs are a joke at this point. Well, I guess PGI and their dart board has always been a joke.

#57 Spam Lanwalker

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:50 AM

View Postoneda, on 09 January 2018 - 05:23 PM, said:

Bad players (cannonfodder) have been whining about basically any and all weapon system in mwo.

Ppc/Gauss op.

Lasers op.

Ac op.

LRMS (hahahaha) op.

Wait....lemme repeat that.

Thousands of thousands of ppl actually complained about L R Ms being op.

The weapons system that even a drunk turtle that is completly koed would evade with ease and not even taking one single scratch.

Yeah.

Ppl actualyl whined that lrms are op.

In taht light and with consistent whining for more than half a decade, you have mechs nowdays that simply wont die.

Urban mechs (hahaha omg) absorb as much dmg as the friigging vip mech. More even.

Mechs take thousands of hits from ppcs and keep walking.

Its gotten so ridiculous that by now.....i dont even recognize anything I read in the books. That was so different, taht this has nothing to do with lore any more.

Those are mechs with advanced energy shields taht absorb basically any and all kind of dmg. No matter what they are hit with.

Light mechs (wolfhound) that take double gauss hits as if its nothing. Multiple double gauss hits. Np. They shrug it off.

Light mechs.

Its gotten kinda pathetic.

Completly dumbed down game where even the worst players can just stand int he middle on open field and survie 12 mechs hammering them for many seconds.

So unrealistic that its not the same feeling it used to be.

Weapons were deadly in mwo. Big huge BFGs taht would devastate mechs. Even the bigggest mechs would crumble.

Now?

Weapons are a joke.

Mechs immortal.

Thats because you ppl are always whining how unfair and too strong this and that is. Crying like babies. Instead of fighting and playing like a real man.

Not like a crybaby.

Crybabies destroyed mwo.


yes because everybody should be as godly as you right ? your point may have validity but your delivery makes you seem like an arse sir!

#58 Relishcakes

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:56 AM

View Postadamts01, on 11 January 2018 - 01:10 AM, said:

I'm talking about Beta as in pre-release of the game. The Jenner was very lethal with its 30 point alpha, the Centurion with 48 was a monster when it got close, and the Atlas with 68 was terrifying. The Cougar is underwhelming these days because 60-70 point laser alphas are everywhere. Plus it runs insanely hot at 74 points. It's very cool running at 42, and ice cold at 35, and that's not bad for such a small ECM mech with great hit boxes that people just don't notice, but it's nothing to really write home about. The point is how out of hand mechs have gotten with damage. Just look at assaults, double the firepower of an Atlas is standard. All of that pinpoint damage is the reason this game can't be balanced, and why we're stuck with this timid gameplay of peaking till one side has an unbeatable advantage.

Thats my cognitive failure then. I figured there was a closed beta they had where they test mechs shortly before they release them to the people who bought them explaining why there is such a gap between paying for mech and being able to play mech. It made sense to me..





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