276 replies to this topic

[Dee Eight]

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

PGI if you're going to do events that are so specific in the use of weapons, then you have to be more specific in terms of EXACTLY which weapons qualify for the event.

The MG fiasco has been and gone.
Today it's SRM6's. Why not just "all types of SRM"? Why Specifically SRM6's WITHOUT ARTEMIS?!
I've played two matches and upon checking I see that my event score is still 0/150.

THEY DID...four days before...it isn't their fault you couldn't be bothered to read that information.


(only IS SRM 6 count and Clan SRM 6 Count)
(using Artemis with IS or Clan SRM 6 will not count)

Edited by Dee Eight, 21 January 2018 - 08:44 PM.

[Max Von Lakes]

I actually enjoyed this event. It was fun driving different mechs (with different loadouts) to what I normally run, for a rewarding change
Might run a random mech for the match score part, to keep in spirit

Edited by Max Von Lakes, 21 January 2018 - 10:35 PM.

[MrKvola]

I was not really responding to you, but since you insist...

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

PGI if you're going to do events that are so specific in the use of weapons, then you have to be more specific in terms of EXACTLY which weapons qualify for the event.

Stated what the problem is.

You merely stated that you do not understand how the event system functions. The required weapons were EXACTLY defined in the events. No LMGs, HMGs or ASRM6s were mentioned anywhere. They are all different weapons systems to MGs and SRM6s. Still, if you paid attention to your progress during day 1, it would take you a maximum of two matches to figure out that other than regular MGs do not work.

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

The MG fiasco has been and gone.
Today it's SRM6's. Why not just "all types of SRM"? Why Specifically SRM6's WITHOUT ARTEMIS?!
I've played two matches and upon checking I see that my event score is still 0/150.

Gave details about what happened. From a dev perspective, this is known as "user experience".

Why not all types of SRMs? Why no Artemis? Because the event was defined this way. The SRM requirement was also described in full on the main page post which you are commenting on. In addition to that, the MG event may have tipped you off already on how strict the requirements are.

While I agree on the point that it may be wise to include a description line in the event engine so that such limitations and caveats can be sufficiently described in the future, I still believe there is a more constructive way to state that and suggest improvements.

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

Honestly I'm not going to participate any longer, and after this and the similar MG day 1 fiasco I am no longer "hyped for the Piranha".
You've succeeded in dangling a carrot and then making people LESS INTERESTED than they were before.

Explained what the consequences are. Sure losing one paying customer for a while isn't a big deal - The point is I'm sure there were others who feel the same.

Nobody cares. Apparently the general population enjoys the event and is able to cope with it's restrictions. A few whiners do not make a difference, there are always some. You can't please everybody, there were people whining even during the holiday giveaway...

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

You would have been better off just giving people 10 MC per KMDD throughout the week and calling it a day.

An alternative suggestion. Okay, I admit this was a bit sarcastic, but still a reasonable suggestion. I would have been pushing hard to rack up as much damage as possible if this was the event criteria.

As PGI was apparently seeking to accomplish certain goals with these challenges, your "suggestion" is pointless. Also having some variety in event goals makes sense overall. Better user experience, and stuff.

Racking up 500 MG damage per faction was an easy enough goal, took me 3 matches for the IS (one of those being a really bad roflstomp) and 2 matches for clans. What led to these metrics is hard to guess without any additional information. Yes, this is my personal experience, but I still do not believe it was that hard to fulfill the goals, just perhaps took more time.

On the other hand scoring 150 damage with SRMs should take no more than a single match per side.

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

See? No whining. Also no strawmanning.

I will let everybody else be the judge of that.

[Generic Internetter]

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

I was not really responding to you, but since you insist...

...if you paid attention...

...the MG event may have tipped you off already...

...there is a more constructive way to state that and suggest improvements...

...Nobody cares...

...A few whiners do not make a difference, there are always some. You can't please everybody, there were people whining even during the holiday giveaway...


...your "suggestion" is pointless...

...Better user experience, and stuff...

...I will let everybody else be the judge of that.

WATCH OUT BOIS, THE SASS IS STRONG WITH THIS ONE

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

You merely stated that you do not understand how the event system functions.

Correct. It should be made clear so that everyone understands clearly straight on the event score page.

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

The required weapons were EXACTLY defined in the events.

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

The SRM requirement was also described in full on the main page post which you are commenting on.

Yes, but only AFTER the fact. The text "(only IS SRM 6 count and Clan SRM 6 Count) (using Artemis with IS or Clan SRM 6 will not count)" was only added afterwards. When I visited the page with the links to the 7 days, and in each page, this text was not there.

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

No LMGs, HMGs or ASRM6s were mentioned anywhere. They are all different weapons systems to MGs and SRM6s. Still, if you paid attention to your progress during day 1, it would take you a maximum of two matches to figure out that other than regular MGs do not work.

Correct. But being reasonable, "Machine Gun" and "Short Range Missles" are umbrella terms that naturally encompass all varieties of their form, which would include LMG's HMG's, SRM4's etc.

Really, we're getting off point here. It's simple: They should have been more specific in the webpage text from the moment the page was put online. Not asking for magic popups to hold my hand... I'm a big boy. Just thought it was careless to neglect to add text on a webpage.

Think about the workflow. Somebody at PGI said "only SRM6's, not any other type of SRM". So wouldn't it be logical to state that from the start?

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

In addition to that, the MG event may have tipped you off already on how strict the requirements are.

Correct, and admittedly I neglected to make that mental leap to SRMs.
However my point still stands: Players shouldn't have to do any of that when it can be prevented with just a line or two of text.

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

While I agree on the point that it may be wise to include a description line in the event engine so that such limitations and caveats can be sufficiently described in the future, I still believe there is a more constructive way to state that and suggest improvements.

Honestly I think I've been clear and logical throughout. I don't see how anything I've said comes across as "whining".

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

Nobody cares. Apparently the general population enjoys the event and is able to cope with it's restrictions. A few whiners do not make a difference, there are always some.

Well I'm glad I didn't resort to whining. I just stated clearly what my issue was in the hopes that PGI actually read about it and act a little more carefully next time.

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

You can't please everybody, there were people whining even during the holiday giveaway...

Strawman Alert!
For the record, this is the first time I have complained about an event.

Let me guess... You weren't talking about me directly, just going for a passive approach to imply that I whine about other events too, without committing to actually saying it directly.

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

As PGI was apparently seeking to accomplish certain goals with these challenges, your "suggestion" is pointless.

Suggestions are all pointless until somebody sees value in them enough to take influence from them.

MrKvola, on 22 January 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

Racking up 500 MG damage per faction was an easy enough goal, took me 3 matches for the IS (one of those being a really bad roflstomp) and 2 matches for clans. What led to these metrics is hard to guess without any additional information. Yes, this is my personal experience, but I still do not believe it was that hard to fulfill the goals, just perhaps took more time.

On the other hand scoring 150 damage with SRMs should take no more than a single match per side.

I had a similar experience for the other event days. It's just the MG and SRM days that caught me out on a caveat.

Let's try a thought experiment:
- Imagine an event that rewards the player for using XL engines.
- So you spend time (possibly PREMIUM time) in the mechlab rebuilding a Clan mech with an XL engine.
- Then after playing a round you see no score update on the event page.
- Fair enough, the score takes time to route back to the webpage from the game server, so you play another round.
- Then you realize your event score is still zero on the event page.
- Then you go through the event pages and find nothing, then only after "whining" on the forums someone tells you that "Clan XL Engines are totally different from XL Engines"
- Then when you say "that should have been made clear on the event page" you get people coming back with sass.

gg wp PGI thx

Edited by Generic Internetter, 22 January 2018 - 04:45 AM.

[WarmasterRaptor]

Man, with all the salt, I feel like I must be some kind of genius for understanding right away that Machine Gun meant well, MACHINE GUN and nothing else !!

Same for the ER meds and again for the SRM6, not Artemis Srm nor SSRM6!

[LordFatman]

don't for get the part were they add it to web page after the start

[LordFatman]

WarmasterRaptor, on 22 January 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Man, with all the salt, I feel like I must be some kind of genius for understanding right away that Machine Gun meant well, MACHINE GUN and nothing else !!

Same for the ER meds and again for the SRM6, not Artemis Srm nor SSRM6!

mg and er med don't have to change on left side of my mech or cost me 600,000 cbills to change to non Artemis then back when done for a 500,000 prize that wsy I lost 100,000 cbills.

when told to use srm 6 I used my srm 6 mech artemis is not in the weapon side so when installed it is on your mech so if it was not good to use they should tell you

Edited by LordFatman, 22 January 2018 - 08:48 AM.

[MovinTarget]

WarmasterRaptor, on 22 January 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Man, with all the salt, I feel like I must be some kind of genius for understanding right away that Machine Gun meant well, MACHINE GUN and nothing else !!

Same for the ER meds and again for the SRM6, not Artemis Srm nor SSRM6!

Check out the 2nd post in this thread... called it

For all we know PGI was paid to conduct a social experiment to determine how many of us want to assume something and how many of us want clarification of the nebulous...

[Generic Internetter]

lol at this whole thread full of fanboys who are clearly missing the point.

LordFatman, on 22 January 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

don't for get the part were they add it to web page after the start

LordFatman, on 22 January 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

after

LordFatman, on 22 January 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

after

That's the point, Einstein.

WarmasterRaptor, on 22 January 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Machine Gun meant well, MACHINE GUN and nothing else !!
Same for the ER meds and again for the SRM6, not Artemis Srm nor SSRM6!

This is so basic I am guessing you are not an English native speaker.
When you state something in English, it automatically includes all sub-types of the thing unless stated otherwise.
Red mechs, Blue mechs, and Orange mechs are all mechs. So if I say "mechs", it means all of those colours and any other sub-type of the word I said.

The confusion arises when one of the sub-types uses the same exact wording as the general category.
For example, "MG" means Machine Gun. LMG and HMG are both types of MG, so when someone says "MG" it means all types of MGs.

I'm glad you mentioned ER Medium Lasers, because that proves my point - I had absolutely no problem with that event because somebody at PGI had the foresight to press the "E" and "R" buttons when typing the information onto the event page.
This enabled players like me to read those letters off the screen and notice that the event is only based on the use of Extended Range Medium Lasers, which logically excludes non-ER lasers.

If it was a non-ER event, then it would have been the same problem as the SRM6s and MGs.

Basically the whole issue is that PGI were careless in how they used words to name categories and sub-categories using the same exact wording (omg it is so ret**ded how did they miss it?).

Following PGI's careless wording, they might as well release a new mech called "Mech" and a new piece of weapon called "Weapon". Then we can all fail events together as one big happy family for not using the specific mech called "mech" or the specific weapon called "weapon", despite the event page saying "ONLY VALID USING MECHS WITH WEAPONS" lol

PGI put effort into making webpages describing each day of the event to inform players.
PGI neglected to inform the players exactly what equipment is or is not valid for the event.
PGI realized they made a mistake, so they corrected it by adding the text afterwards.
PGI have proved me right by adding the text (albeit later than they should have done) - By doing so they're acknowledging that the text needed to be there in the first place.

All the fanboys so protective of MWO getting offended, saying I should have trawled in advance through places other than the event page to find extra information about the event just in case PGI forgot to add something into the place it was supposed to be in. /facepalm

I made a clear and reasonable point, and you got all offended and sassy. You need to wash the salt out of your mouths.

Proving you wrong with logic in a little bit of forum-sparring is turning out to be more rewarding than the MG event was lol
I actually enjoy this, I confess

PS: I noticed nobody acknowledged or responded the "XL Engine" hypothetical example I gave earlier. Why? Because you know I'm right about this whole damn thing.

Edited by Generic Internetter, 22 January 2018 - 10:24 AM.

[MovinTarget]

@Generic,

This is assuming English is a language of clear, perfect specificty. It is not.

"Machine Gun" vs "machine gun" ...are these different? Yes! One is a proper noun/name indicating something with the title Machine Gun which would not be confused with "Heavy Machine Gun" because, well, that is a different title. The other is a generalization that yes, could be any type of machine gun.

Another way to muddy there waters would be to confuse the name of a "class" with the name of an actual thing.

i.e. Battleship Eisenhower vs. an Eisenhower Class Battleship

That is English for you...

If you look at that Challenge, its even worse because according to the challenge page IN GAME it says "MACHINE GUN" thereby stripping us of the ability to ASSUME they mean Machine Gun *or* machine gun.

So I am not excusing PGI, yes it could have been clearer, but please don't insult others online stating they don't know Engrish simply because they did not interpret the same text the same way.

This is why, back as the 2nd post of this thread...

MovinTarget, on 15 January 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

Only regular MG or *any* MG for day 1?

[Dee Eight]

When I went to Hawaii in 1980, it was pointed out by one of the native descent islanders that there are at least five different meanings to the word "aloha" depending on how its said/pronounced or tone of voice when saying it.

Now myself, i read Machine Gun and knew without having to ask they meant the Machine Gun...proper name. Had they intended any other, they'd have said Light Machine Gun, or Heavy Machine Gun, or all three.

"500 IS Machine Gun Damage in Quickplay"

See... M and G are capital letters...hence proper noun.

[Reposter]

Hi dev team, just wondering could you put up a Road map as well as a Calendar of events for referencing? Or is there already another post for my requests?

[Generic Internetter]

MovinTarget, on 22 January 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

@Generic,

This is assuming English is a language of clear, perfect specificty. It is not.

"Machine Gun" vs "machine gun" ...are these different? Yes! One is a proper noun/name indicating something with the title Machine Gun which would not be confused with "Heavy Machine Gun" because, well, that is a different title. The other is a generalization that yes, could be any type of machine gun.

Another way to muddy there waters would be to confuse the name of a "class" with the name of an actual thing.

i.e. Battleship Eisenhower vs. an Eisenhower Class Battleship

That is English for you...

If you look at that Challenge, its even worse because according to the challenge page IN GAME it says "MACHINE GUN" thereby stripping us of the ability to ASSUME they mean Machine Gun *or* machine gun.

Dee Eight, on 22 January 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

When I went to Hawaii in 1980, it was pointed out by one of the native descent islanders that there are at least five different meanings to the word "aloha" depending on how its said/pronounced or tone of voice when saying it.

Now myself, i read Machine Gun and knew without having to ask they meant the Machine Gun...proper name. Had they intended any other, they'd have said Light Machine Gun, or Heavy Machine Gun, or all three.

"500 IS Machine Gun Damage in Quickplay"

See... M and G are capital letters...hence proper noun.

You've both made very good points there. I admit I hadn't thought of the capital letters / proper name perspective.
And yes, you're right that PGI putting it in all caps just removed the ability to make a distinction, and I totally missed the part where they used capital letters to form proper names.

Still that's a pretty microscopic way to communicate. I still think someone at PGI could have taken the time to inject a little convenience into it.

So back to my first post: PGI need to be more specific when stating the terms of an event.
Proper names, capital letters, categories vs items contained within said category, etc.
It just boggles my mind that they put the effort into making the event page without making the effort to think about the receiving end of what they type onto it.

MovinTarget, on 22 January 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

So I am not excusing PGI, yes it could have been clearer, but please don't insult others online stating they don't know Engrish simply because they did not interpret the same text the same way.

Yeah that wasn't worded in the best way. I was trying to base my argument on my interpretation of the structure of the English language but it came off more like "first language superiority"... sorry about that.

I still think my "mechs called mechs and weapons called weapons" thing was pretty lulzy though

Edited by Generic Internetter, 22 January 2018 - 12:41 PM.

[Mercules]

Baron Blitz Fokheimer, on 17 January 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

Once again, you aren't providing a reason for why the event should be this way; all you're doing is describing a cause-effect relationship.

Instead of telling me "you made the decision to play only one faction, therefore you shouldn't be able to complete this event because ________," you are telling me "you made the decision to play only one faction, therefore you aren't able to complete the event."

Do you understand the difference there? The difference between "is" and "should be"? I don't know how to describe it in terms any simpler than that.

Actually I did. It was that "Self Imposed" part. See, PGI doesn't design events by pausing and thinking through all the ways an end user can and/or will limit their use of an otherwise open system. They don't datamine for the obscure minorities and then develop careful plans for events making sure that people who have chosen to self limit an open system because of some arbitrary vow they have taken are going to benefit or be able to participate in the event.

Imagine if PGI decided to make an event where you had to play a mech in every weight class. Oh but wait, I play mostly lights and mediums and barely own heavies. I don't play assaults, sure I could grab a Trial assault but maybe it has to use Lasers and the trial assaults all currently have PPCs. Seems very similar, doesn't it? Well I'm not going to whine about how unfair it is that -I- never bothered to pick up assault mechs and how horrible PGI is for giving free stuff to people who have and take part in their event. I just go about my life not taking part in their event and understand it was MY CHOICE to not play that way.


See, PGI doesn't need a reason to include you because they already did; they never excluded you. YOU excluded YOU but you want to blame someone else. That is the loonacy here.

[Mercules]

Generic Internetter, on 21 January 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

PGI if you're going to do events that are so specific in the use of weapons, then you have to be more specific in terms of EXACTLY which weapons qualify for the event.

It's how many years into MWO and people still haven't learned that you have to go to the forums if you want more details and continue to make assumptions then complain when they are wrong? I swear I had discussions just like this back in closed Beta. PGI isn't going to change so learn to read people.

[PocketYoda]

The rewards money wise could have been higher.