54 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Siegegun, on 17 January 2018 - 07:31 AM, said:

I care.

Unfortunately, PGI doesn't
Which is a shame

[topgun505]

You want to give my Artic Wolf and Cheetah Stealth Armor?? Are you SURE you want that to happen??

Be careful what you wish for.

[Stinger554]

Mcgral18, on 17 January 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

Unfortunately, PGI doesn't
Which is a shame

Actually they do...They've said they don't want to invalidate any of the equipment of either tech base somewhere. IIRC it was Paul who said that.

I could be wrong though.

[Mcgral18]

Stinger554, on 17 January 2018 - 07:59 AM, said:

Actually they do...They've said they don't want to invalidate any of the equipment of either tech base somewhere. IIRC it was Paul who said that.

I could be wrong though.

Their actions don't match their words, unfortunately

STDs have been worthless for 3 years
They've competed with cXLs since their inception, but have never been an actual choice (which would be the case where all equipment is useful)


Give quirks to STD engines, agility, heat or durability
That can make them a choice over other engines, even the cXL, if balanced properly.



It is not balanced properly

[Armored Yokai]

Siegegun, on 17 January 2018 - 07:31 AM, said:

Mixtech is a horrible idea. It would limit choices and invalidate a ton of IS equipment.

We do not need mixtech. We need PGI to balance better.



I care.

I.S tech has always been invalid compared to clan, PGI isn't going to balance better with paul on the team...just look at jumpjets,CW,ghost heat, gauss charge.

[Cade Windstalker]

November11th, on 16 January 2018 - 10:36 PM, said:

@Noni: yes.
@Hazeclaw: and yes.

You both have a correct conclusion.
We can solve part of this issue by ridding ourselves of GH and instituting a power drain, not draw, system instead. Works essentially the same but one has to let the Fuzion reactor spool up a bit before firing again.

Snub PPCs would do real work for the clan side with alot less heat.

This doesn't actually work out the same because ghost-heat is pro-active and prevents many weapon combos from being used effectively at all. Just instituting a longer firing delay means the abusive weapon combos still work, they just have their DPS lowered. Since heat already does that the only thing you're doing is making it possible to do something like fire off 5-6 PPCs at once without cooking off your mech.

Basically what you're proposing has all of the issues GH has but fails to keep stuff like pop-up-PPC-surprise under control.

[Shard Phoenix]

The game is imbalanced and heavily meta driven as it is.

Why in the FNEB would anybody want to make the game even more so? Totally agree with the posts that went to some length as to why mix tech in this game would be, for lack of a better term... OMEGALUL.

[SpessMarine]

Let me put RACs and Snubs on my clan mechs pls lawd.

But seriously no mixtech will be the end of everything

[Bud Crue]

Mcgral18, on 17 January 2018 - 08:03 AM, said:

Their actions don't match their words, unfortunately

STDs have been worthless for 3 years
They've competed with cXLs since their inception, but have never been an actual choice (which would be the case where all equipment is useful)


Give quirks to STD engines, agility, heat or durability
That can make them a choice over other engines, even the cXL, if balanced properly.



It is not balanced properly

Nonsense.

And I quote:
-ahem-
“We are constantly monitoring performance”
“When there is something that needs improving we will certainly address it.”

Now, my good man. If we accept that these past statements are not out right lies or the feverish delusion of a raving lunatics, we are forced to accept the inescapable conclusion that standard engines are and always have been performing perfectly relative to other engines, because if they were not performing perfectly relative to other engines then PGI would have addressed any possible deficiency that they exhibit.

PGI’s diligent monitoring of in game metrics and their precise balancing efforts regarding all things can provide no other outcome than this. They have said so repeatedly, and only a truly cynical person would doubt them. The metrics do not lie and certainly they do not so obviously your subjective views to the contrary are clearly in error.

[ANOM O MECH]

Khobai, on 16 January 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

so youd let IS mechs use clan tech

but you wouldnt let clan mechs use IS tech

why would you ever play clans then

Um because they are better.

Like my idea suggests, IS mechs with mixtech would be limited so as to not make all IS weapons and chassis obsolete.

An Ebon Jag wouldn't be garbage because a Roughneck variant is allowed to carry two clan lasers.

[ANOM O MECH]

Brain Cancer, on 16 January 2018 - 11:32 PM, said:

Actually, the first mixtech was the (C) refits of Inner Sphere robots for garrison duty. By the Clans. There's also beasts like the Ha-Otoko, most notably the -1C and -HR.



Mixtech basically destroys plenty of choices that only exist as "good" because they're only able to use one set of tech. The meta would narrow drastically.

I did not know that about the first usage.

When I read another tread about omni's, one of them had mixtech but locked IS meds.

To avoid meta issues, I think it would be possible to introduce it in a manner that was limiting and not all encompassing. That is why I would never want the barn door open.

Really think however that there could be a place and make it interesting if mixed tech was mixed and limited.

[ANOM O MECH]

Luminis, on 17 January 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

I just want a WHM-6R with a cXL300, 2x cGauss, 6x cERML and 15 cDHS. That's a 72 dmg alpha with a 42% heat efficiency - basically a true baby Deathstrike.

/edit:
The amount of firepower you can field if your equipment is light and compact is amazing, isn't it?

Yeah that would be nuts and completely not where my idea is going.

To not be stupid OP or just wipe out the relevance of all IS weapons, that Whammy would have to be a new variant and it wouldn't have all clan weapons. Perhaps only the ballistics or lasers were updated with the heatsinks but not both.

topgun505, on 17 January 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

You want to give my Artic Wolf and Cheetah Stealth Armor?? Are you SURE you want that to happen??

Be careful what you wish for.

No I would like it if people had better reading skills.

[Brody319]

I see Mixtech killing Clan ballistics beside the LB-X and Gauss and IS energy.

I think the overall number of viable mechs would be the same or increase. The only problem I see is it would heavily increase the dominance of IS meds and Lights since they could now pack more firepower for less weight using clan tech. While most clan medium and light mechs wouldn't gain any inherent benefit for using IS tech.

Clan heavies and assaults would also gain a lot of firepower with access to Heavy Gauss Rifles.

[Metus regem]

November11th, on 16 January 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

true but battletech has always been about mixed tech, loss tech, new tech, jihad tech, comstar tech, ad infinum.

No?

Mixed tech units (Clan and IS tech) were a very, very, very rare thing before Dark Age.... and even when they finally put Mixed Tech in, it is often seen as Marry Sue and as a dumpster fire....

Now Mechwarrior games are the exception to this, as they have mostly been single player focused, so there was no real need to properly balance them against one another....

[MechaBattler]

It would be a clustercuss from a balance point of view. It'd have to be very limited if it was done at all.

[Luminis]

tker 669, on 17 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

Yeah that would be nuts and completely not where my idea is going.

To not be stupid OP or just wipe out the relevance of all IS weapons, that Whammy would have to be a new variant and it wouldn't have all clan weapons. Perhaps only the ballistics or lasers were updated with the heatsinks but not both.

The 6R is a variant that has a canonical Clan Tech retrofit, the 6R (C) - if a retrofit makes sense for any 'Mechs, it'd have to be the ones that have a (C) variant in BT:TT, no?

But anyway, I think this highlights the primary issue with the idea: You'd have to impose severe, arbitrary mix tech limits on 'Mechs depending on their overall capabilities. That's another huge balancing factor and it's only going to make balance more of a mess, I believe.

[Lykaon]

Luminis, on 17 January 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

I just want a WHM-6R with a cXL300, 2x cGauss, 6x cERML and 15 cDHS. That's a 72 dmg alpha with a 42% heat efficiency - basically a true baby Deathstrike.

/edit:
The amount of firepower you can field if your equipment is light and compact is amazing, isn't it?

or a pudgy slower Hellbringer without ECM. Clans still do it better with 100% clantech.


As for cannon mixed tech examples.

House Kuritas Omnimech designs incorperated adaptors to allow clan equipment to be loded into omni pods. It is of specific mention in the TRO that export versions of these same omnimechs lacked the clan adaptors.

Phelen Kell Ward piloted his wolfhound even when he became a Clan mechwarrior. Ulric Kerensky had Phelen's mech refitted with clan tech.

Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Ghost Bear both have examples of mixed tech mechs (DiamondShark for export sales and Ghost bear for Inner Sphere manufacturing within the captured territory in the Ghost Bear Dominion)

By the Fedcom civil war several house and mercenary units fielded smalled numbers of captured clan mechs. These mechs were not mixed tech but were clantech in service to the Inner Sphere. Even before that several clan omnimechs were gifted to the Successor State Scions by Jamie Wolf at the Outreach summits mid clan invasion (3051?) Victor Stiener-Davion piloted his Direwolf for much of the remaining clan invasion conflict.

Early in the clan occupation many captured Inner Sphere Battlemechs were repaired/refitted for clan use many used clan weapon refits. These mechs were almost exclusivley reigated to garrison duty and piloted my freebirth mechwarriors.

So most of the time in cannon mixed tech was a either a rare exception (Phelan's Wolfhound) Specific to the mech design (Kurita Omnis) a poor compromise ( Clan refits of I.S. mechs for second line garrison duty) or probably most commonly a clan mech utilizing all clantech in service to an Inner Sphere house or merc unit.


My opinion of the only acceptable "mixedtech" compromise is that any faction may utilize any chassis but that chassis MUST use it's native tech base.

So if some Clanner wants to pilot a Warhammer 6R have at it but that Warhammer can not have clantech.

Edited by Lykaon, 17 January 2018 - 12:44 PM.

[blood4blood]

Video gamer opinion: free for all allowing mix-tech equipment/weapons/chassis along with cross-faction tech (Clanners taking IS chassis and vice-versa) would be balanced since anyone could take anything, but would almost certainly lead to even more specific meta builds for people who want to min/max performance. As a gamer, that's OK by me because it would be the most effective way to level the playing field for all players (anyone can take anything), but it would place even more emphasis on buying the meta "best" mechs and weapons.

Mixed with lore opinion - if you allowed it but only on a limited basis to reflect the timeline and MW/BT lore, it would likely throw balance way off and be even worse re: creating certain mechs that are either meta must-haves, or complete trash.

[Stinger554]

blood4blood, on 17 January 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

Video gamer opinion: free for all allowing mix-tech equipment/weapons/chassis along with cross-faction tech (Clanners taking IS chassis and vice-versa) would be balanced since anyone could take anything, but would almost certainly lead to even more specific meta builds for people who want to min/max performance. As a gamer, that's OK by me because it would be the most effective way to level the playing field for all players (anyone can take anything), but it would place even more emphasis on buying the meta "best" mechs and weapons.

The "issue" with allowing mixtech is that clan tech is straight up superior than IS 90% of the time so it'll mostly be people running clan tech which would kill "diversity". I mean I'm fine with that but a crap ton of people would be PO'd over it.

It IMO would make for a more balanced game overall. IS mechs wouldn't necessarily need the armor + weapon quirks that currently have, though there are some exceptions and IS mechs would at least be able to compete in general with clan firepower, though again there are exceptions cause some clan mechs have a large number of hardpoints compared to IS mechs.

Edited by Stinger554, 17 January 2018 - 01:36 PM.

[Mechteric]