70 replies to this topic

[ThreeStooges]

I like the assault snipers. They do more that the assault lrm boats since they actually have to move into line of sight to fire and hit their targets. Both make great shields for my lights.

If they weren't so horrible with torso twisting you'd be able to loose those 60-80 armored arms to the clans' 70-80 laser alphas and get maybe two or three alphas off before dying. 90 alpha atlas s (l) isn't good when it can only alpha once.

I watched some closed beta game play and really miss how much slower the ttk was and how tanky all the mechs were. Not a single clan mech any where. Atlas vs atlas slug fest and the K2 able to fire two ppcs at the same time (!) without 50% heat spike.

[Daggett]

Of cause you can snipe with assaults. The only thing you have to keep in mind is to not get isolated and to keep moving to positions where you are actually effective.

Take Frozen City for example:
Here you often have the situation that both teams snipe each other from the hills until one team gets bored and starts pushing. When this happens sniping assaults tend to stay back and continue to do their thing. That's bad because:

• You are very vulnerable to lights. They will see you and they will come for you.
  
• The enemy will not pop up that often anymore because they are now running between buildings trying to attack your pushing team. So you deal much less damage. By staying with your team you can find much better angles to hurt the enemy.
  
• Your team gets focused down more easily because they are missing an assault where damaged mechs can fall back behind.
  
• Your team has also less intimidating power. It makes a difference if only one assault is rushing towards you or three. A match is often decided when one team manages to intimidate the other well enough so that they start to retreat which is very often accompanied by panic. So even if you are not in the frontline you can have a psychological effect as long as the opponent sees you moving towards him with your entire team.

So as long as both teams are static and are happy trading, do your stuff. But if your team starts to push, don't fall back. You don't need to be at the front and share armor but you need to show your presence to your team and the enemy as well. Most long-range builds work perfectly fine from second-line, some weapons like LRMs are even most powerful there. There is no need to always utilize your weapon's range, a dual gauss is as deadly up close as it is at 700m.

Edited by Daggett, 18 January 2018 - 12:55 PM.

[DrSaphron]

Totally depends on the build and intended purpose, so long as you are putting out meaningful damage and helping the team then rock on, but never EVER put LRMs on an assault! The moment a light gets under your minimum range you're as good as dead!

[Dee Eight]

My fave annihilator build is the 2A with 6 LB2Xs, 10 tons of ammo, 4 ERSL, and a 300 LFE. I can "sniper" for 12 damage and 3 heat from 913 meters or push forwards and ruin an atlas's morning from 200 meters... until the ammo bins empty...at that stage i'm limited to the ersl's 200m optimal really. But since I'm carrying 910 rounds of LB ammo, that's nearly 2 minutes of continuous fire. 1000 damage games are not unusual for the mech, and it averages nearly 600 per match. Even with only 11 operation nodes, it rarely overheats. If you're not using the lasers, the heat mgmt ratio is 1.66 according to mechlab.

[Gas Guzzler]

KingCobra, on 18 January 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

I totally agree with this a good example is the new MadCat MK2 with twin Gauss rifles and its more viable for a assault to mid range and snipe as it is not used by the whole team as a meat shield.

Keeping people suppressed and worried about getting hit by an Assault-mech level of firepower is more important than an assault standing out and getting alpha'd "sharing" armor.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 18 January 2018 - 01:42 PM.

[Water Bear]

Bombast, on 18 January 2018 - 08:54 AM, said:

There's a common misconception here, I think - There's a group of people who insist that hiding behind rocks in an assault is the right move, because 'sharing armor' is a myth and all that matters is winning trades, and there's a group that insists every assault has to be at the absolute front, eatting shots and leading pushes.

Truth is, what assaults need to do is engage, not necessarily push. That's the problem with most players who are sniping - They're not really fighting, just occasionally poking people. An assault should be interacting with the enemy as often as possible, whether its from 100 meters away or 800.

This isn't strictly an assault problem, of course. Light, mediums and heavies often refuse to actually engage as well, often to the detriment of assaults. Ever had a match on Mining Collective where the assaults got isolated and destroyed before they could reach the center? That's often because the lighter mechs refused to engage the enemy, who proceeded to just waltz over to the backline and back stab the assaults.

The truth is too damn strong. If you have the firepower and you can aim, you can influence the enemy's movements. Your light mech engagement example is a good one, I have another. My Roughneck and a single Annihilator kept the enemy team from progressing up the steps on Bog to the high ground. They peeked one or two at a time, and we alphad their faces hard. While we did this, our team nascar'd around the low ground and came up behind the enemey.

Since PUGs tend to display literally no coordinated movements, keeping an enemy from breaking cover is as simple as whack-a-mole. When one pops up, drill its face hard, and it will retreat.

[Water Bear]

Asym, on 18 January 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

OK, what Bombast and El Bandito have said is true. But, we have a paradox MWO has created:

Op-Tempo is created by the units that make contact in a movement to contact. What that means for you non-military players is that when the first mech starts the fight, those mechs control the speed and depth of the fight.

If assault mechs make contact, being slower, the tempo focuses on that small area and allows faster mechs to exploit flanks and "seams" the contact creates because those light, medium and fast heavies are not the immediate focus.... The assaults establish the tempo that allows everyone else opportunities to engage to their weight advantages....

If non-assaults make contact, being they are faster and not designed to take long periods of direct fire, the engagement immediately splinters into smaller fights extending the battle space in width and depth.... If assaults aren't there, they can not contribute to the combat mass and their armor is wasted. Most importantly, assaults can't keep up in a running gun fight and are destroyed piece meal....

Roles have a lot of validity in land combat. Endless meta and the ability to illogically modify vehicles only makes it worse. Now, it's just a game and who really cares........but, what we are seeing is that what happens when military theory is proving itself valid in game play..... Assaults have a role to play in this game and if they refuse that role, anarchy ensues. Sorry, it's just a reality of the physics of land warfare.....

A lot of insight in that post. It never occured to me that nascar might be a natural result of faster mechs reaching the enemy first and immediately trying to flank / move / approach from an angle that won't get them killed.

[panzer1b]

It depends on the build and assault, but in general sniping is one thing that assaults in teh current meta do quite effectively since their weaknesses (trash agility, massive hitboxes, vulnurability to lights) dimish as the engagement range increases while their biggest strength (tonnage for heavy guns) naturaly favors bringing heavier longer ranged choices compared to say mediums or even most heavys.

Also, since assaults have higher armor (and the hitboxes aint that big at 1km), they can afford top play a power-position role, just at longer range where they can provide enough firepower and sustained DPS to neuter or kill anyone who tries to expose to the fire. Heavys can also sorta play sniper, but ive found that most of them (a few exceptions like nigh gyr or novacat or other slow high tonnage choices) lack the sustained DPS to remain a threat for more then 2 or so alfa strikes after which they need to pull back into cover and be useless for 10-20 seconds. Essentially, heavys that bring range are capped with their ability to deliver sustained damage as well as high damage (no heavy is gonna bring 50-60 alfa at 800m without going 32kph or cooking after 1 shot). Assaults can park up on a hill, and provided the enemy doesnt have alot of PPFLD which teh sniper cant counter, they can sit there and hit the enemy non-stop as well as deny a large area for them to move in.

Still, the biggest issue that i see is plain old cowardice, sniper assaults that get hit by say 2 ERPPCs (which did absolutely nothing compared to their 6 ERLL volley), and immediately run behind cover when they arent overheating, or critically damaged (obviously if you have everything open even 20 alfa is gonna hurt, and you shouldnt sit there getting shot when ur cooking). Players, especially sniper assault pilots, need to understand that nothing short of a assault with a similar ranged loadout or focus fire from multiple enemy mechs is a serious threat to you at least as long as you arent super crit. Your armor and your weapons are both assets you should be using throughout the entire game, that means try to get as much damage downstream as possible especially before the brawl starts, and try to make the enemy waste fire on you (anything that isnt a sniper and trying to hit you past 800m is just wasting ammo/heat). Please, just dont be a pusy and cry under a rock after getting hit by 2 measly PPCs (i see this all the damn time in my summoner when i nail some ERLL assault with but 2 PPCs or 1PPC+1GR, had they taken the time to return fire id be far more hurt then they).

Edited by panzer1b, 18 January 2018 - 02:24 PM.

[Vxheous]

Asym, on 18 January 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

OK, what Bombast and El Bandito have said is true. But, we have a paradox MWO has created:

Op-Tempo is created by the units that make contact in a movement to contact. What that means for you non-military players is that when the first mech starts the fight, those mechs control the speed and depth of the fight.

If assault mechs make contact, being slower, the tempo focuses on that small area and allows faster mechs to exploit flanks and "seams" the contact creates because those light, medium and fast heavies are not the immediate focus.... The assaults establish the tempo that allows everyone else opportunities to engage to their weight advantages....

If non-assaults make contact, being they are faster and not designed to take long periods of direct fire, the engagement immediately splinters into smaller fights extending the battle space in width and depth.... If assaults aren't there, they can not contribute to the combat mass and their armor is wasted. Most importantly, assaults can't keep up in a running gun fight and are destroyed piece meal....

Roles have a lot of validity in land combat. Endless meta and the ability to illogically modify vehicles only makes it worse. Now, it's just a game and who really cares........but, what we are seeing is that what happens when military theory is proving itself valid in game play..... Assaults have a role to play in this game and if they refuse that role, anarchy ensues. Sorry, it's just a reality of the physics of land warfare.....

Gas Guzzler, on 18 January 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

Keeping people suppressed and worried about getting hit by an Assault-mech level of firepower is more important than an assault standing out and getting alpha'd "sharing" armor.

Gas Guzzler's right, assaults (apart from dedicated brawl builds) do the most work while engaged around the 500-600m range. They function best as a area denial or a suppression role. Assaults don't have to be standing at the front to properly share armor, or share aggro (basically winning trades). As an example, a Deathstrike shooting from 600m, exposing themselves enough to draw attention, putting out 80+ damage, repositioning, doing it again in 6 seconds can easily hold an enemy team's attention for other mechs to also expose and deal damage, or move up into their optimal range. The problem with YOLO queue is that players in faster mechs engage too quickly for the assaults to properly position to bring their firepower into play, or conversely, players in slower assault mechs play too passively to properly support the faster moving mechs.

I would rather have a trading assault on my team doing damage the whole time, that will move in at mid game to also share armor vs a brawling assault that either does nothing all early game, or gets rekted trying to close distance.

Edited by Vxheous, 18 January 2018 - 02:30 PM.

[Luminis]

In most cases, I'd rather have an Assault snipe than rush in mindlessly and die with < 200 DMG dealt - those are the most frequent proponents of the "Assaults need to be at the front" mentality.

But yeah, people confuse smart use of cover with hiding. It happens and it's best to just ignore it. Listening to that sorta stuff just gets you killed.

[Helsbane]

I see assault mechs a few ways.

One type is based around high missile rack count with only single or dual ballistics. These are the mechs I build for close range work. I load them up with a big AC and as many SRM racks as they can carry, take the entire survival tree, and fight the enemy from the front row.

The second type of assault is the ballistic boat kind. These I pack as much dakka into as possible and hurt or kill the enemy from two to three grid squares away. When the enemy comes into close range, I'm relatively fresh and still hurt them just as bad as I did at long distance.

Energy boats can usually be built any number of ways, from long range to short, so individual playstyle dictates how those are loaded out. And lurms (if you must bring them for whatever reason) are better suited to (not being used) heavy or medium mechs with decent speed allowing them to stay about 250 - 350 meters from their targets (those things other people are getting for them) to cut flight time down as much as possible (which is still inferior to direct fire).

Edited by Helsbane, 18 January 2018 - 03:14 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Unmatched firepower is their only signature.

they dont even have unmatched firepower

most heavies can achieve the same ghost heat limit as assaults

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 18 January 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

they dont even have unmatched firepower

most heavies can achieve the same ghost heat limit as assaults

False.

[Luminis]

Khobai, on 18 January 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

they dont even have unmatched firepower

most heavies can achieve the same ghost heat limit as assaults

Mind showing me the Heavy that can match a Deathstrike for outright alpha, a Scorch for brawl range alpha or a Anni 2A / MCII-B for DPS? I really want one.

Edited by Luminis, 18 January 2018 - 03:32 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Luminis, on 18 January 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

Mind showing me the Heavy that can match a Deathstrike for outright alpha

Let alone a Dire.

[justcallme A S H]

Luminis, on 18 January 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

Mind showing me the Heavy that can match a Deathstrike for outright alpha, a Scorch for brawl range alpha or a Anni 2A / MCII-B for DPS? I really want one.

A HBR can, 2HLL/6ERML... But it is HOT. AS. BALLS. So it's not a viable comparison in any way, shape or form. It cannot output that damage anywhere near as fast.

Even a WHM-6D with a 57pt @ 450-500m is decent, but again, it cannot constantly repeat it.

gooddragon2, on 18 January 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

From baradul's vids I get the impression that assaults should share armor and so they shouldn't be hanging back sniping. If that's the case, what's up with the Awesome (particularly the PPC variant)?

Everyone has said enough about who you're watching, I agree there. So no need to go into that further other than if you want to get better? Stop watching. Go watch proper players... Writhenn / JuJu / B33f / Fyre_Hawk / Solitude - Those are regular / decent ones off the top of my head.

Assaults carry firepower. Assaults since engine desync, are mostly rubbishat close quarters due to poor mobility stats.

Atlas for instance, is largely dead as it cannot shield quickly anymore as a brawler.
The Spirit Bear is dead because MASC doesn't work anymore.
The Warhawk UAC Brawler (which was so niche but FUN), was killed off when it's jam quirk was changed.

Assaults now are to be treated as mid to long range weapons platforms for the most part. They need to sit at that mid range (400m+) and do their work. Not letting the light/med brawlers or harassers near them. Any brawlers need to be patient until mechs are weakened and then get in there. Especially since the SRM nerf, cSPL/ IS SPL nerfs... All of which have smashed brawlers big time.

This is, IMO, a distinct shift in MWO play and this is all due to Skill Maze / Desync. Players need to understand this and adjust their expectations of what an Assault is/should be.

If you get 2-3 kills up then yeah share the armour, jump into a closer range push... But too early for an Assault is death.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 18 January 2018 - 05:25 PM.

[Mechrophilia]

My experience has lead me to these two rules about ranged assaults.

Rule #1: In a sniper heavy/assault its your responsibility to watch the minimap and flow with the group as needed. Even if you have to sacrifice something for a larger engine, the responsibility is yours alone, and you can't complain if you get left behind. At this point everyone knows the nascar is likely.

Rule #2: You can't stay back and snipe the entire match. Later in the battle, your mech's healthy armor will be a precious commodity that should be used to draw fire, giving your damaged team mates shots of opportunity.

Those are the two things I took away from my experiences sniping with heavies and assaults. I generally take something lighter now if I want to snipe. (that was the third thing I learned...but this thread is about assaults.)

[D E S D E N O V A]

To me personally, it all comes down to "this is a team-based competition."

Yes yes, I know: People like to use PUG games as an excuse to go all lone-ranger, no matter what class/size they're playing.

But just like 24 random gladiators thrown into the arena, the ones who CHOOSE to apply teamwork rather than trying to be Mr. Big Nutz all the time, are the ones who have a higher chance of being the last ones standing.

All that to say: Yes, it can be very "effective" for assault mechs to play the sniper role, (if one defines "effective" by how much damage they do compared to everyone else.)

But personally, when I see a 100-ton mech hiding behind Hunchbacks and letting their whole team die, just so they can play last man standing and brag about their high damage numbers from sniping: I tend to lose respect for those pilots.

As long as they're willing to step up and present themselves as a target when the rest of the team is getting rolled though, that's a WHOLE different story.

That's just me though. o7

Edited by D E S D E N O V A, 18 January 2018 - 04:10 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 18 January 2018 - 11:09 AM, said:

not all of the clan assaults are fast. and the ones that are fast like the executioner or kodiak tend to have horrible downsides. deathstrike is really the only unconditionally good assault clans have and thats soon to get nerfed.

No it isn't. According to Chris himself, the Deathstrike and MCII are within expectations and not overperforming.

Lul.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 January 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

No it isn't. According to Chris himself, the Deathstrike and MCII are within expectations and not overperforming.

Lul.

His stance on those robots would be more understandable if, by those same expectations, a lot of other things were under-performing relative to them (thus power creep everything up to that level). Balance is all relative, yadda yadda yadda.

I have a funny hunch he thinks that they're already equal to everything else though.