70 replies to this topic

[Clownwarlord]

It depends.

On a few things.

1. Builds.

2. Situation.

If you have the big open area and both teams are trading on Grim then yeah let them snipe and trade. If you are also built for it then do it, why? Because its better than you not doing anything #0damageAssaultMech

[WarPickle]

There are roles.... brawling, snipe, midrange, blah blah blah and there are the classes.

Just because it is an assault class does not mean it is a brawler.... there are roles within the classes remember that and don't make builds because people say it should be so.

[IllCaesar]

Some mechs can rock it. The Battlemaster-1G example, being able to mount up to six different LLs at a very high hardpoint with its quirks makes it quite valuable. Every assault should manage to fit at least one long-range weapon, as generally assaults should only enter the fray after the mediums and heavies have been dishing some damage for a while, running in to pick them off in their vulnerable state. Staying back for a while is a good option and even having a LRM launcher can be a good addition.

Meanwhile some assault mechs are literally made for long range engagements. That's what the MadCat MKII is for with its dual gauss and decent speed. For those mechs the issue is less can/should they fight at range and more of whether they have backup weapons for when they have to move up into the fray and put their neck out. Just make sure you don't mistake an Atlas or a King Crab for a sniper.

As for the Awesome, its awful as a long-range sniper. Its hardpoints, which are even higher than they used to be, are still too low. Even the Zeus and Victor manage to outdo the Awesome for long-range damage and that is just with PPCs/ERPPCs too. It can do well at short range with the new PPC variations. My 8V, for example, does quite well with 2 Snubnose PPCs alongside SRM18 with a Light PPC for range poking the numerous Hellbringers and Adders I spot running out to disable their ECM. The Heavy PPCs aren't a bad match either. The only real thing the Awesome has going for it are those heat and PPC quirks and so you might as well work them to the mech's best hardpoints. Its a bad chassis that I've owned four of (sold the 8R before MRMs were in the game)

Edited by IllCaesar, 18 January 2018 - 05:49 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

IllCaesar, on 18 January 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

As for the Awesome, its awful as a long-range sniper. Its hardpoints, which are even higher than they used to be, are still too low.

Ah... The 8M (I think) with the ERPPC quirks isnt bad.

It's range with the proper skill maze is 1015m or something. Therefore one of the longest effective ranges in the game. Issue, again, is the low mounts. But if you know how to use the mech properly and sit @ 1300m - you will win your trades against most mechs as you are doing more damage than they again.

BUT IS ERPPCs suck (cause they are WAAAAY to hot for their dmg). So takes someone very good to use them well

[Y E O N N E]

IllCaesar, on 18 January 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

Staying back for a while is a good option and even having a LRM launcher can be a good addition.

pls no

[LordNothing]

an assault really should get significant damage before doing something suicidal. so ranged assaults are fine so long as you push when the time comes. unfortunately i see a lot of campers that dont know how to recognize that and will literally camp themselves into oblivion (i call these 'squirrel food').

Edited by LordNothing, 18 January 2018 - 07:04 PM.

[IllCaesar]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 January 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

pls no

Nothing wrong with a LRM. Just one. It helps back up the smaller guys when they're ahead of you getting into scrapes. I'm generally more of a medium pilot and I really do appreciate the LRM support I get. It can peel off armour and deter the enemy. Even if it doesn't destroy a component many will go into a full retreat once the armour is peeled off of a leg or a side torso.

Carry more than one though you're a LRMboat and ought to be getting your own damn spots, getting your share of armour scraped, and have enough backup weapons to protect yourself when you need it and enough that you can do some damage after you run out of ammo. I've been doing pretty well in this Catapult lately, especially with so many lights running around.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...56d170eb3302bbb

My most recent drop in this build:

Spoiler

This isn't amazing by the standards of some folks but it was a good output for somebody like myself.

Most LRMboats I encounter refuse to follow even the basics, unfortunately. They're not the best weapons in the game but I think they receive a bad rap just because of how people use them poorly. They have their place, its just that folks tend to misplace them. *cough* 3x LRM15 Atlas *cough*

[Y E O N N E]

LRMs only really have a place when tall cover is not an option, e.g. Polar Highlands.

A well-built, well-piloted Assault is fast enough and positioned well enough that it can always offer its direct-fire weapons to the meat of the fight, where you want it the most. If you are back-lining in a Light or fast Medium (and I am primarily a Light pilot), you accept the risk of operating so isolated on your own. Your job is to draw aggro so that the firepower those Assaults and Heavies are pouring into the meat of the fight snowballs into rapid kills. If your Assaults are wasting heat lobbing LRMs into a rear-echelon target, they are not being as useful as they could be and are robbing the front of firepower.

[SirSoggyDog]

I want to agree with the comment that the real question is engaging the enemy, not necessarily actually taking the damage.

Honestly, I think we should stop saying "sharing armor" and start referencing "sharing attention and incoming fire".

Why? Because how much you got damage you receive is not a good measure of how much enemy damage potential you drew off your teammates. For example, a light mech can dance around and get alphas shot at it a dozen times, if it's doing this during a critical moment, and only dies to the last blast, I would dare to say that the light did more to keep the team alive than the light that waddled up, took three alphas to the CT and promptly dropped dead.

How is this relevant to the questions of whether or not lights should snipe? It is because you can still prevent the enemy from doing damage to your team in ways other than losing armor. A Direwolf that's blasting away with a half dozen UAC/2s is probably going to draw a lit of fire, even if the thing is a kilometer away and out of optimal range. The "sniper" mech is probably going to last a lot longer, and might well draw a lot more fire and attention over the course of it's lifetime than the guy who tries to share armor, get's caught at close range where he can't get to cover, and consequently goes down within the span of a minute.

This isn't to say all assaults should snipe, some heavier IS mechs have the quirks to survive close range combat, and some Clanners have the speed to get to cover and avoid being focused, but it's not a bad strategy by any means, particularly for mechs like the SVN, DWF, STK, BLR, AWS, etc.

[IllCaesar]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 January 2018 - 08:38 PM, said:

LRMs only really have a place when tall cover is not an option, e.g. Polar Highlands.

A well-built, well-piloted Assault is fast enough and positioned well enough that it can always offer its direct-fire weapons to the meat of the fight, where you want it the most.

Assaults aren't always in the fight. In fact, as pointed out earlier in the thread, its usually better for smaller mechs to start the short range fighting. The LRMs would only be fired off early on in the match. I prefer to run nothing larger than a LRM10 with a single ton of ammo, and only if I have the spare room on the mech, rather than downgrading to try and fit one. Additionally, I'm fond of using leftover weight for a LRM5 just to determine how dense the enemy is based on how many AMS fire off. When your ally ahead of you can't R target everybody there a couple of LRMs lobbed in there will get the AMS to fire up and betray their numbers and position.They're not really useful on an assault mech during the fight but it has plenty of uses prior. If you still have it and some ammo left after the bulk of the fighting is over it helps deal with stragglers as well, especially on modes like conquest.

Quote

If you are back-lining in a Light or fast Medium (and I am primarily a Light pilot), you accept the risk of operating so isolated on your own. Your job is to draw aggro so that the firepower those Assaults and Heavies are pouring into the meat of the fight snowballs into rapid kills.

A good light pilot can work with a single LRM launcher to strip the rear armour off of a enemy mech early on in the match. Just get them turned aroud and the foe's rear armour will peel right off as they try to get shots off at the light, especially if they're fool enough to do it as an assault mech. If the light is very lucky the enemy will be isolated enough that they can finish them off. If not, there will be some time later in the fight where they can walk right up and take out the already exposed rear components with a single alpha or two. Again, this is for early in the match for the real grit-your-teeth fighting has begun.

Quote

If your Assaults are wasting heat lobbing LRMs into a rear-echelon target, they are not being as useful as they could be and are robbing the front of firepower.

Any decently built assault mech should be able to fire off a LRM launcher without building up heat that'll still be around by the time that they start engaging in direct fire. If it isn't its probably because you're standing in the caldera on Caustic Valley.

[Bombast]

IllCaesar, on 18 January 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

I prefer to run nothing larger than a LRM10 with a single ton of ammo, and only if I have the spare room on the mech, rather than downgrading to try and fit one. Additionally, I'm fond of using leftover weight for a LRM5 just to determine how dense the enemy is based on how many AMS fire off. When your ally ahead of you can't R target everybody there a couple of LRMs lobbed in there will get the AMS to fire up and betray their numbers and position.They're not really useful on an assault mech during the fight but it has plenty of uses prior. If you still have it and some ammo left after the bulk of the fighting is over it helps deal with stragglers as well, especially on modes like conquest.

What a startlingly waste of tonnage and hard points. If your assaults have room left over for a single LRM launcher, then you've built them wrong.

IllCaesar, on 18 January 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

A good light pilot can work with a single LRM launcher to strip the rear armour off of a enemy mech early on in the match. Just get them turned aroud and the foe's rear armour will peel right off as they try to get shots off at the light, especially if they're fool enough to do it as an assault mech. If the light is very lucky the enemy will be isolated enough that they can finish them off. If not, there will be some time later in the fight where they can walk right up and take out the already exposed rear components with a single alpha or two. Again, this is for early in the match for the real grit-your-teeth fighting has begun.

Nothing about this is ok. Most lights have a hard time carrying enough tubes to defeat even the most modest AMS shield, and even if they do, their are just so many superior harassing weapons. ERMLs, MLs, cMPLs, ERLLs and ERPPCs can all do the 'harass early from range' job far better than LRMs, without having to deal with hard counters and ammo dependency on chassis that already have tonnage problems.

IllCaesar, on 18 January 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

Any decently built assault mech should be able to fire off a LRM launcher without building up heat that'll still be around by the time that they start engaging in direct fire. If it isn't its probably because you're standing in the caldera on Caustic Valley.

Any decently built assault does not waste 2-6 tons on a single LRM launcher.

Edited by Bombast, 19 January 2018 - 02:34 AM.

[BenAran]

As others pointed out:
It depends.
Just gonna make a quick rundown.

Step1: What is your teams composition?
If you are the only assault on your team (It can happen, although rarely) you have to be a bit of a meatshield.
If you are the fifth assault on your team though, especially with something like already having two annis, your stalker can stay in second or third row and simply provide firesupport to the real frontline.

Step2: What is the map you are playing on?
Should not be a surprise, but if you are playing on mining collective or any other CQB map, you cannot really snipe all that well. It sucks, but its your fate to be at the front now. If you are on something like alpine though, it becomes a lot more tolerable. Just move with the team if they try to engage.

Step3: What exact kind of weapons do you have?
If you are using gauss, you can go a lot closer than if you were sniping with ERLL. Same is true for ERPPC and such. So definitely keep that in mind and look if you can maybe be a bit closer than others.

Thats about what I can come up with.

[Luminis]

You'd think the whole bracket build / kitchen sink build nonsense was addressed plenty in the past.
Not plenty enough, apparently. Sign.

[Feezou]

Bombast, on 18 January 2018 - 08:54 AM, said:

This isn't strictly an assault problem, of course. Light, mediums and heavies often refuse to actually engage as well, often to the detriment of assaults. Ever had a match on Mining Collective where the assaults got isolated and destroyed before they could reach the center? That's often because the lighter mechs refused to engage the enemy, who proceeded to just waltz over to the backline and back stab the assaults.

Once, I played a match on Caustic Valley, and my team had King Crabs and Maulers hiding, while I was trading shots with a Stalker and Stormcrow in a Puma.

[sycocys]

Well if 90% of the teams are going to leave the assault lance in their dust at the dropzone - honestly don't see why they shouldn't snipe as it is pretty apparent that most of the players think they should be way in the back anyhow.

[LowSubmarino]

The in mwo established (quickplay) impression is, that you gotta storm in the the nascar and into a brawl with an assault.

But thats only the expected role which was born, when you would of course like to have heavily armored mechs within the ensuing nascar brawls.

In such a scenario missing out on hundreds of tons of armor, massive distraction, more targest and firepower spells disaster for those the dont understand this.

But in a team that doesnt play like that, enjoys careful maneuvering, sniping, outpositioning your opponent and that has heavily armored snipers or sniper capable loadouts....thats outright scary.

Mwo features arcade style tiny map matches, that last mere minutes.

On much bigger maps, most mwo loadouts would be utterly inferior. Ppl would have to take long range options. if not as the primary weapon than as a competitive and effective secondary option.

In more realistic scenarios, ppl would play much more like you see the best teams do.

If you watch those games, they play very, very differently than the gameplay you see when you just join a random mach. no matter the tier.

Those fun matches ppl just want to see action for a few minutes.

Ppl that enjoy moving a mech, jumping with it, trading very well and with minimum exposure, ppl that want to win by outplaying the opponent, dont necessarily rush into a brawl each time. They mostly hit you from range. Cause if you are good at that, you can trade for days and just annihilate anyone that gets too close.

They do brawl often enough.

For sure.

They immediatly and brutally pounce as soon as they smell the tiniest weakness. One mech down in the opposing lance that is trading with you.....chances are good they just rush you.

They immediatly react to small mistakes. Mechs that get left behind, or a 1 - 2 mech advantage.

They might even just wait a little longer till they have a 3 to 5 mech advantage just to make sure they will win when the charge you.

They dont just rush it.

Thats why loadouts in Qp would get massacred vs ppl that play a different style with a very different motivation.

They also enjoy longer games and doing things which would bore most QP players.

And that is: they enjoy scouting, maneuvering, observing, sniping, trading, taking your time, using terran, communicating, doing well, trading well.

QP teams also dont adapt to what they have at their disoposal.

lets say you have 2 assaults with mostly long range options. One heavy lrm boat with few lasers as backup and one er LL boat and 2 other mechs with gauss. You also dont have the strongest lights. They wouldnt be good in brawls vs wolfhounds and other powerful and armored lights.

Instead they have two very fast and cloaked locusts. One sider and thats it for lights.

Perfect scouts to keep track of enemy and to feed back intel to the long range heavy team and they find a good position in relation to enemy team as a first priority.

Instead of immediatly rushing to the main nascar lanes. Try that with too much long range options in your team vs a team that is more focused on close to mid range with barely long range potential.

Theyll massacre you. Even in skirmishes where you outnumber them.

Theyll be upon you before you have enough time to launch all your lrms ore weaken them with your er LLs. By just rushing right into the nascar, you doomed yourself.

This and comparative decisions in QP is what breaks teams all the time.

They stoically go for the same strat over and over again, without realizing, that it only gives you a 50 / 50 chance.

Very bad chance. Yeah, you win like that a lot of times, but youll loose very, very often too.

Ppl that communicate well immediatly say and ask, who has what kinda loadout. Some just state they have missiles or that the team is mostly short range etc. And then just name one or two simple options to play into that strength.

So, to make it short, arguing that a player is dumb to not bring an assault brawler, is only based on the assumption that going for this 50/50 chance, standard nascar race should be the ultimate and most valid goal for any player playing assaults who should in turn prioritize a very limited and mediocre at best strategy. And so he should bring brawl weapons cause thats how he should play.

Bring whatever you want. If youre good with assault snipers, build them. If you think youre a good assault lrm boat then take it.

Just communicate what you have and make a suggestion what you think would work for your mech.

Some teams are a little dull and they dont really understand what you say or simply wanne play and not bother about anything. Thats okay too. Can be annoying cause your chances vs any half organized or smart teams will sink dramatically.

But a lot of ppl know very well, just how effective only 20 seconds of planning is.

I mean. Theres enough time to think about one or two solid strats (positioning, area, formation, loadouts, general strat) in the insane loading times.

Takes forever till a match loads.

Teams where 3 or 4 ppl share some short thoughts and agree on somthing tend to have a much, much higher chance to win.

And in those teams we had all kinds of assaults. Then, when there were other loadouts, we sometimes just found a good position. Or, when we scouted a lot of very slow assaults, we rushed their base or something like that.

Just reacting to all you can see from the other team.

Its the playstyle that matters. Not so much the loadout. To an extent. I mean, your loadouts gotta be good for something. thats what i mean. Apart from that its communication. Running into brawls with lrms or ER LLs isnt very healthy.

And vice versa.

Edited by oneda, 19 January 2018 - 08:34 AM.

[IllCaesar]

Bombast, on 19 January 2018 - 02:34 AM, said:

What a startlingly waste of tonnage and hard points. If your assaults have room left over for a single LRM launcher, then you've built them wrong.

Not everything has godlike hardpoints that can be fully utilized. Look at every Atlas that goes with a 360 over a 350. That's not a big difference and its only upped to 360 because there's leftover.

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Nothing about this is ok. Most lights have a hard time carrying enough tubes to defeat even the most modest AMS shield

I'm not talking about lights using LRMs. I'm talking about a light pilot working in cooperation with another player further away that has a LRM launcher. The light pilot targets the enemy, gets them turned around and then the LRMs can hit the vulnerable rear armour. It works out quite well for me when I'm pugging in my lights like my TDK.

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Any decently built assault does not waste 2-6 tons on a single LRM launcher.

Given that there are plenty of assault builds floating around that are effectively builds with 2-6 leftover tons just thrown into the engine because there's just nowhere else to put it I find it hard to believe.

Edited by IllCaesar, 19 January 2018 - 08:29 AM.

[Bombast]

IllCaesar, on 19 January 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

Not everything has godlike hardpoints that can be fully utilized. Look at every Atlas that goes with a 360 over a 350. That's not a big difference and its only upped to 360 because there's leftover.

If you're in an Atlas and have a spare missile hard point for LRMs, you have goofed it up.

Quote

I'm not talking about lights using LRMs. I'm talking about a light pilot working in cooperation with another player further away that has a LRM launcher. The light pilot targets the enemy, gets them turned around and then the LRMs can hit the vulnerable rear armour. It works out quite well for me when I'm pugging in my lights like my TDK.

It works a far better when the other mech is using something besides LRMs.

Quote

Given that there are plenty of assault builds floating around that are effectively builds with 2-6 leftover tons just thrown into the engine because there's just nowhere else to put it I find it hard to believe.

Name two mech builds with spare tonnage and loose hard points.

Edited by Bombast, 19 January 2018 - 09:11 AM.

[Luminis]

IllCaesar, on 19 January 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

Not everything has godlike hardpoints that can be fully utilized. Look at every Atlas that goes with a 360 over a 350. That's not a big difference and its only upped to 360 because there's leftover.

The AS7 gets four missile hardpoints at most. So... You're telling me you'd rather forgo your forth A-SRM6 on a dedicated brawler so you can carry an LRM10 to spray fifty or so damage all over an enemy while you're closing in?

IllCaesar, on 19 January 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

I'm not talking about lights using LRMs. I'm talking about a light pilot working in cooperation with another player further away that has a LRM launcher. The light pilot targets the enemy, gets them turned around and then the LRMs can hit the vulnerable rear armour. It works out quite well for me when I'm pugging in my lights like my TDK.

Just imagine if that wasn't a piddly LRM salvo hitting the back armour, but, dunno, a bunch of laser beams, PPC projectiles or gauss slugs.

Edited by Luminis, 19 January 2018 - 09:27 AM.

[Lightfoot]

gooddragon2, on 18 January 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

From baradul's vids I get the impression that assaults should share armor and so they shouldn't be hanging back sniping. If that's the case, what's up with the Awesome (particularly the PPC variant)?

Better to ask why are they leaving their Assaults to go short range? Assaults don't hang back, they establish the initial range. If you don't have that much range, you wait till the battle moves into range for you. Trading armor works just as well at 900 meters as it does at 300, maybe even better. MWO has weak range support so a battle at max range will not last very long. In no time at all the battle will draw to under 400 meters. Now, does one want to be with their Assaults or steam-rolled for breaking off to go chase the rabbit?

Patience may be the hardest skill to learn, but well worth putting to good use.

Edited by Lightfoot, 19 January 2018 - 09:38 AM.