25 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

...to 220m: http://mwomercs.com/...14145-23jan2018

It's not 270m but thanks PGI and those who made this happen!

Edited by Hit the Deck, 19 January 2018 - 10:23 PM.

[ANOM O MECH]

I am disappointed.

Was hoping for it to change to 600m....

That would have been so much fun.

[El Bandito]

All dual HGauss IS Assaults smiled at the announcement. Gonna enjoy FP even more.

I'm personally glad that my lobbying of heat related nodes favoring the Clan side had paid off. Perhaps things will become more balanced, and tonnage disparity reduced.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 January 2018 - 11:05 PM.

[Koniving]

Hit the Deck, on 19 January 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

...to 220m: http://mwomercs.com/...14145-23jan2018

It's not 270m but thanks PGI and those who made this happen!

A good thing to note, unlike most weapons, the HGR does damage out to 5x the "Optimum range."

Even at 180mm, if it did damage out to 8 times the optimum range, it'd still compete with the AC/20, being just decimals weaker than the AC/20 at its optimum range, but easily outdoing its damage potential past that, just higher than AC/10 damage at its range, and going on til it hit zero damage.

Ah well.

[Koniving]

tker 669, on 19 January 2018 - 11:02 PM, said:

I am disappointed.

Was hoping for it to change to 600m....

That would have been so much fun.

See above.

It does damage out to 1100 meters now (at which point it does 0.)
So at 600 meters it still does 11.36363636363637 damage with 25 damage stopping at 220 meters.

In my wished for scenario.. At 600 meters it'd do 14.58333333333333 damage at 600 meters with 25 stopping at 180 meters.

This is without accounting for any range nodes. Note the more you increase those, the better the damage will be at said 600 meters.

Edited by Koniving, 19 January 2018 - 11:13 PM.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 19 January 2018 - 11:12 PM, said:

See above.

It does damage out to 1100 meters now (at which point it does 0.)
So at 600 meters it still does 11.36363636363637 damage with 25 damage stopping at 220 meters.

In my wished for scenario.. At 600 meters it'd do 14.58333333333333 damage at 600 meters with 25 stopping at 180 meters.

The patch notes don't say anything about increasing the max range, just the optimal. The game does not use an automatic formula to determine max range, it's a specific XML set value (in this case 900 max remains).

Edited by FupDup, 19 January 2018 - 11:15 PM.

[IllCaesar]

If this sticks then the Fafnir should need less quirks at launch which means less quirk ******* in the long run.

[Hit the Deck]

Koniving, on 19 January 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

A good thing to note, unlike most weapons, the HGR does damage out to 5x the "Optimum range."

Even at 180mm, if it did damage out to 8 times the optimum range, it'd still compete with the AC/20, being just decimals weaker than the AC/20 at its optimum range, but easily outdoing its damage potential past that, just higher than AC/10 damage at its range, and going on til it hit zero damage.

Ah well.

Your single or dual AC/20 mechs are faster than your HGR mechs.

At 1 vs 1 brawling scenario, AC/20 mechs should be triumphant most of the time over HGR mechs. The CD of AC/20 is already correct at 4s which is faster than HGR, but its heat is mayyybbe a bit high, moreso with dual AC/20 due to GH.

As an exercise, can you realistically build a practical dual HGR heavy like you can with dual AC/20 heavies?

[Koniving]

Hit the Deck, on 19 January 2018 - 11:33 PM, said:

Your single or dual AC/20 mechs are faster than your HGR mechs.

At 1 vs 1 brawling scenario, AC/20 mechs should be triumphant most of the time over HGR mechs. The CD of AC/20 is already correct at 4s which is faster than HGR, but its heat is mayyybbe a bit high, moreso with dual AC/20 due to GH.

As an exercise, can you realistically build a practical dual HGR heavy like you can with dual AC/20 heavies?

Can you make more damage at beyond their range as you can with HGR mechs, with HGR projectile speed?

Such is the trade off.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 19 January 2018 - 11:14 PM, said:

The patch notes don't say anything about increasing the max range, just the optimal. The game does not use an automatic formula to determine max range, it's a specific XML set value (in this case 900 max remains).

Little reason not to believe that the change would take place.
It depends on what "Effective" range is defined as.

Quote

Heavy Gauss Rifle Design Notes: This change is the result of direct feedback from 2017 MWOWC finalists, and is intended simply to push out the effective range of the Heavy Gauss Rifle.

One can assume the optimum range, but why not just state the optimum range? They already said in the sentence prior to this.
And they typically follow a pattern. If it is X range, then X range times 2 is the zero damage range.
If I increase my weapon's range to 939 meters via quirks and skills, by extension, my new weapon 0 range can be tested and proven to be 1878 meters, despite my weapon's default XML max range being 2,430 meters.

......

Huh.

I think I just discovered why my LBX-2s are so incredibly powerful.
In addition to all LBX weapons doing double damage crits, we're back to 3x range.

You guys keep your HGR. In a lore based Battletech game it'd be incredibly powerful and the AC/20 users would have a gigantic machine gun with explosive bullets and accumulating 20 to 40 damage over time versus the one shot all bow and worship the owl-eye Heavy Gauss Rifle barrels of the Fafnir, with the next best gun for a single shot being the Gauss Rifle...

I have my PGI made LBX-2, which fires more like Activision's little whackjob but with range benefits and bonus crit damage (which is still preposterous but at this point PGI isn't gonna do anything right so I might as well enjoy how brokenly overpowered LBX is now).

See ya, suckers!

[Koniving]

(And yep, I just stopped caring about my counter argument; I got 3x LBX range back. LBX never should have had the range nerf, its right in the fluff that they are to have superior range due to its own targeting computer; TRO 2750 original where it is introduced for the first time... which is why it doesn't benefit from targeting computers, it has its own, and ammunition that detonates via proximity fuse akin to the flak cannons it was originally compared to before the "shotgun" comparison that came later on; so it should never explode or 'shotgun' until after reaching a certain range to the target.)

[El Bandito]

Koniving, on 20 January 2018 - 01:52 AM, said:

I think I just discovered why my LBX-2s are so incredibly powerful.
In addition to all LBX weapons doing double damage crits, we're back to 3x range.

I have my PGI made LBX-2, which fires more like Activision's little whackjob but with range benefits and bonus crit damage (which is still preposterous but at this point PGI isn't gonna do anything right so I might as well enjoy how brokenly overpowered LBX is now).

I still fail to see just how 3x range makes IS LBXs brokenly OP. Unless you consider plinking away from 1200+ meters with LBX2s OP.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 January 2018 - 03:15 AM.

[Mystere]

Koniving, on 20 January 2018 - 01:52 AM, said:

Huh.

I think I just discovered why my LBX-2s are so incredibly powerful.
In addition to all LBX weapons doing double damage crits, we're back to 3x range.

"Huh!" it is alright!

Which now begs the question, why are C-LBXs not also getting 3X max range?

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 20 January 2018 - 03:35 AM, said:

"Huh!" it is alright!

Which now begs the question, why are C-LBXs not also getting 3X max range?

Cause PGI. More importantly, CLBXs have longer optimum range and lower tonnage and slots. You can run CLBX20 on XL ST.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 January 2018 - 03:44 AM.

[theta123]

I checked MWO after a 2 week abscence, to see a range buff to the HGR. and not just a buff= 220m instead of 180. With range nodes, thats 242m range. This is quite the improvement alright!

[Koniving]

El Bandito, on 20 January 2018 - 03:02 AM, said:

I still fail to see just how 3x range makes IS LBXs brokenly OP. Unless you consider plinking away from 1200+ meters with LBX2s OP.

That alone? Doesn't.
Combine with it with range enhancing nodes.
Combine that double crit damage. That is 2 damage per pellet to critical componenets.
Combine that with 15% of all crit damage translates into structure damage. (So while four AC/2s could do between 8 and 11.6 damage against structure per volley, 4 LBX2s can do between 8 and 15.2 damage per volley with heightened chances of doing ANYTHING above 8 without the additional weight of targeting computers)
Combine that with rapid fire. between a rapid default rate and skill nodes.
Combine that with an observed ZERO spread from FOUR LBX2 weapons when fired from the Legend Killer, without any spread reducing nodes unlocked.

So a really long this + this + this + this + this + this + this + this + this + this = What the **** is THAT!? equation.

And you got something quite overpowered for what it is.

It isn't the individual part, but the sum of its whole that results in whether something can be overpowered.

It would be akin to if you take LRMs today, with all their mechanics, today's skill tree and today's spread, today's hit detection and then tack in Straight up, Straight Down flight model, the 1.8 damage per missile at the time and the speed it reaches the destination as observed in this GIF... you'd have the most overpowered weapon in the game. (Note: At the time of the original recording that gif is from, there was no lock on mechanic for LRMs in MWO)

At the time it wasn't the most overpowered weapon in the game, and today it most certainly is not, but the sum of the two combined would make all other weapons obsolete. The sum of the whole is what matters, not the individual aspects.

Edited by Koniving, 20 January 2018 - 08:33 AM.

[El Bandito]

Koniving, on 20 January 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

That alone? Doesn't.
Combine with it with range enhancing nodes.

More range doesn't necessarily mean more damage as longer distance = worse accuracy and worse spread.

Koniving, on 20 January 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

Combine that double crit damage. That is 2 damage per pellet to critical componenets.
Combine that with 15% of all crit damage translates into structure damage. (So while four AC/2s could do between 8 and 11.6 damage against structure per volley, 4 LBX2s can do between 8 and 15.2 damage per volley with heightened chances of doing ANYTHING above 8 without the additional weight of targeting computers)

You gonna punch through armor to crit, and quad LBX2s spread from the distance doesn't effectively punch through armor unless the target is stationary.

Koniving, on 20 January 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

Combine that with rapid fire. between a rapid default rate and skill nodes.

Unless you fire from long distance, your LBX2s will lose to PPFLD or laservomit in trades. And at long distance, spread and accuracy can be an issue.

Koniving, on 20 January 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

Combine that with an observed ZERO spread from FOUR LBX2 weapons when fired from the Legend Killer, without any spread reducing nodes unlocked.

I don't have LK, but if you show me a video of it doing zero LBX2 spread from long distance (cause any shorter than that, it is gonna lose to las-vomit and PPFLD in trades), without any nodes unlocked, then I will believe you. Doesn't have to be your video. LK doesn't even have any spread reduction quirks so I am very curious.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 January 2018 - 08:40 AM.

[Koniving]

El Bandito, on 20 January 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

More range doesn't necessarily mean more damage as longer distance = worse accuracy and worse spread.



You gonna punch through armor to crit, and quad LBX2s spread from the distance doesn't effectively punch through armor unless the target is stationary.



Unless you fire from long distance, your LBXs will lose to PPFLD or laservomit in trades. And at long distance, spread and accuracy can be an issue.

You missed the statement "ZERO SPREAD" from Legend Killer

Let me put it in terms you can understand.
Watch this Hellbringer with its SINGLE PROJECTILE LBX20 and UAC/20.
Until 20 meters short of its optimum range, it has ZERO spread.

The LBX2s in my Legend Killer have ZERO spread until 1,000 meters.

In MWO, from the mouth of Paul himself in 2013, LBX 10 has 45 different patterns, and each mech uses up to 5 spread patterns each.
Thus, certain mechs have access to somewhat better spread patterns than others. The Hellbringer above is one such example.

The Legend Killer as I discovered, is another such example.
In comparison the Rifleman 3C...sucks when given the same toys as it begins spreading typically at 500 meters, so half the range.

Jagermechs I have to try to get a sample size out of them.. but the long and short of it is there is a reason some mechs do better with LBX than others as early as 2012. If you have at least one of the five patterns with minimal spread, you're great. If you have 4 out of 5 with minimal spread... you're in excellent territory.

I'll start recording some Legend Killer footage today and rekit my 3C back to 4 LBX2 (I did it for a bit and then decided "Nope, this thing sucks" and thus went back to 4 LMGs and 2 ER PPCs).

Edited by Koniving, 20 January 2018 - 08:48 AM.

[El Bandito]

Koniving, on 20 January 2018 - 08:42 AM, said:

You missed the statement "ZERO SPREAD" from Legend Killer

Let me put it in terms you can understand.
Watch this Hellbringer with its SINGLE PROJECTILE LBX20 and UAC/20.
Until 20 meters short of its optimum range, it has ZERO spread.

The LBX2s in my Legend Killer have ZERO spread until 1,000 meters.

I didn't miss it. In my post I specifically said I do not believe LK can have zero spread at such distance, and I want video proof. Cause I tried LBX2s on other mechs and they all had spread at 1000 meters, and LK doesn't have any LBX spread reduction quirks so it shouldn't be special.

Do you even know what ZERO spread means? It means the pellets will all hit the exact same place. Not just hitting the same component, but the same exact pixel.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 January 2018 - 08:51 AM.

[El Bandito]

For example, I just hopped onto a Bushie, and shot at a stationary Cataphract with a single LBX2. Lemme show you the spread. See those white dots? Those are LBX2 pellets from a single shell clearly separated from each other--that's spread. And despite the fact Cataphract possessing one of the largest CT, by aiming at its center I still had spread damage on the ST and the cockpit, as shown on the paper doll. From mere 416 meters away!



Which is why I am skeptical about your "zero spread" LBX2s at 1000 meters distance, and eager to see the LK video of it.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 January 2018 - 09:24 AM.