165 replies to this topic

[NimoStar]

Quote

Clan Skill Tree Heat Node nerf does seem rather trivial, but is a step in the right direction. That direction being the balancing of the laser vomit, where presently the benefits far outweighed the costs.

This nerfs ALL weapons and ALL mechs not just laser vomit

If want to nerf laser vomit then do a laser nerf, not a heat nerf.

ANd Im all for making a blanket nerf on lasers, most weapons used are lasers, and even half of them on non-energy builds.

[Lily from animove]

Verilligo, on 22 January 2018 - 01:43 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure the comp players would agree with you. Laser vom IS too powerful. I would say the question is how to make it less powerful, but we've already had plenty of input FROM comp players regarding how to make it less powerful and make other options more attractive. Instead, I'll have to say the real question is why we haven't tried any of said suggested options. I mean you'd think it would be a relatively simple matter to set up a test server with invites sent out to groups of individuals alongside internal studio testing.

the issue is you can not balance laser vomit by nerfign lasers, that kinda breaks all the mechs (mostly lights and emds) that have no options except using lasers.

Nerf heatscale so large vomits can't happen, reintroduce negative (heat)quirks to nerf chassis that can boat above and beyond.

Khobai, on 22 January 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

OH NOES I CANT WIN BY ONLY SPAMMING LASERS ANYMORE I ACTUALLY HAVE TO USE AUTOCANNONS OR MISSILES TOO. ITS THE END OF THE WORLD.

yes it is, or where is the piranha or MLX or locust putting those autocannons and missiles into?

Some people here make the same mistake that PGI does, they see a problem, fix it without seeing the entire picture and who gets even knocked out by the nerfbat than just a little bruise.

NimoStar, on 22 January 2018 - 09:30 PM, said:

This nerfs ALL weapons and ALL mechs not just laser vomit

If want to nerf laser vomit then do a laser nerf, not a heat nerf.

ANd Im all for making a blanket nerf on lasers, most weapons used are lasers, and even half of them on non-energy builds.

someone is just crying silently in a corner for not being OP anymore

The heatscale and its huge value is the reason why:

we have too much laservomit
we have laservomit
we have lasers mostly hotter than their lore values
we have many ballistics hotter than lore (because even Ac20 gets ghostheat)
we have doubleheatsinks doing less cooling than in the TT.

No lowering heatscale would not nerf all too much. Lowering heatscale could mean removing Ac40 builds ghostheat and also lowering soem heatvalues again. but the current heatvalues of so many wepaons are currently inflated because the heatscale is inflated as well.

Edited by Lily from animove, 23 January 2018 - 02:05 AM.

[El Bandito]

NimoStar, on 22 January 2018 - 09:30 PM, said:

This nerfs ALL weapons and ALL mechs not just laser vomit

If want to nerf laser vomit then do a laser nerf, not a heat nerf.

ANd Im all for making a blanket nerf on lasers, most weapons used are lasers, and even half of them on non-energy builds.

Perhaps nerfing overall Clan heat is what PGI had in mind in the first place. CDHS is so good anyway.

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 23 January 2018 - 02:17 AM, said:

Perhaps nerfing overall Clan heat is what PGI had in mind in the first place. CDHS is so good anyway.

but was it done the right way? was a double pep adder too op, or a mlx with lasers or any other clanlight fielding lasers to justify an across the board nerf?

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 23 January 2018 - 02:19 AM, said:

but was it done the right way? was a double pep adder too op, or a mlx with lasers or any other clanlight fielding lasers to justify an across the board nerf?

It wasn't done the right way. Instead of nerfing nodes in miniscule ways--trust me when I say that nerf is very small--PGI should have flat out nerfed CDHS cooling value. 2 slot DHS is just so good, especially on ST death proof XL engined mechs with 7 slot Endo/Ferro.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 January 2018 - 03:09 AM.

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 23 January 2018 - 02:22 AM, said:

It wasn't done the right way. Instead of nerfing nodes in miniscule ways--trust me when I say that nerf is very small--PGI should have flat out nerfed CDHS cooling value. 2 slot DHS is just so good, especially on ST death proof XL engined mechs with 7 slot Endo/Ferro.

And so I cna ask again, how does that affect the Omnis without any tonnage left to add more cheap DHS and without ES/Ferro? Yet you just showed how your propsoed change of another tech would simply be based on arguments that aren't true for all the clanmechs. Also, how much mroe would you nerf DHS for clans? if you do so, you will see the big clanners which can spare the tonnage usign ShS while all the lights wh need the extra coolign and which have enough slots to not care if it were 3slotsor 2 slots get again the worse end of that nerf. Any low light tonnage mech won't care about 2 or 3 slots he can't use the left over slots anywas due to tonnage limitations. You are still not fairly balancing the way you try to balance.

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 23 January 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:

And so I cna ask again, how does that affect the Omnis without any tonnage left to add more cheap DHS and without ES/Ferro? Yet you just showed how your propsoed change of another tech would simply be based on arguments that aren't true for all the clanmechs. Also, how much mroe would you nerf DHS for clans? if you do so, you will see the big clanners which can spare the tonnage usign ShS while all the lights wh need the extra coolign and which have enough slots to not care if it were 3slotsor 2 slots get again the worse end of that nerf. Any low light tonnage mech won't care about 2 or 3 slots he can't use the left over slots anywas due to tonnage limitations. You are still not fairly balancing the way you try to balance.

Very simple. The reason is that PGI must balance techs in accordance to Clan battlemechs, not Clan omnimechs. Cause if you balance tech by restricted Clan omnimechs, then Clan battlemechs will exploit it with their full customization ability--hence we have all these T1 Clan battlemechs running around, which resulted in horrible horrible mobility nerfs to the Kodiaks, MAD-IICs, and Supernovas. We should try to avoid that. So balance the tech by Clan battlemech standards, and should any Clan omnimech fail to perform with nerfed Clan tech, use quirks to buff it to competence. Simple, and effective. And as a bonus, you can avoid mobility nerfs.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 January 2018 - 05:17 AM.

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 23 January 2018 - 05:08 AM, said:

Very simple. The reason is that PGI must balance techs in accordance to Clan battlemechs, not Clan omnimechs. Cause if you balance tech by restricted Clan omnimechs, then Clan battlemechs will exploit it with their full customization ability--hence we have all these T1 Clan battlemechs running around, which resulted in horrible horrible mobility nerfs to the Kodiaks, MAD-IICs, and Supernovas. We should try to avoid that. So balance the tech by Clan battlemech standards, and should any Clan omnimech fail to perform with nerfed Clan tech, use quirks to buff it to competence. Simple, and effective. And as a bonus, you can avoid mobility nerfs.

And yet I ask:

Why not make omnimechs have battlemech construction rules? Would fix many discrepancies.
We as palyerbase have said no sueprquirks anymore, In no way will some of the omnimechs ever (especially with further tech nerfs) be on par with battlemechs if we do not:

utilise superquirks again
make negative quirks for the too strong ones.

cerating tech balance and then buffing omnis will not work without superquirks. Further, just creating tech balance doesn't help the other sides subpar mechs as well, becasue IS side has the same trouble even with being all battlemechs. So is it realyl the clan battlemechs being an exploit or si it just that most omnimechs are inferior? because if lore would know an omnimech with exactly the same as one of the current meta t1 clanners, what then? hen suddenly it would not be the "omni" in front of the emch beeing the issue. it simply is the chassis themselves and their restrictions. because even with tehcbalance those omnis FAR below their battle brothers will stay far below them. HBR sia good example of a rather metaworthy Omni. But we seriously cannot supequirk again which some mehcs would need.. What we need is a general balance of core mechanics that prevents the gaps between good and bad mechs to become too wide. because then, this gap can be covered with quirks.

Edited by Lily from animove, 23 January 2018 - 05:32 AM.

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 23 January 2018 - 05:32 AM, said:

And yet I ask:

Why not make omnimechs have battlemech construction rules? Would fix many discrepancies.
We as palyerbase have said no sueprquirks anymore, In no way will some of the omnimechs ever (especially with further tech nerfs) be on par with battlemechs if we do not:

Because PGI doesn't want to, even after several Clan players requested it all the way back in 2014. Main reason is that omnimechs with full customization will render battlemechs obsolete, with their pod swapping. So no go. It is far more feasible to ask them to base their balancing on battlemechs, rather than restricted omnimechs. As for super quirks, a lot of IS mechs still have them, with offense quirks in 30% or above, and defense quirks that give them armor/structure value of heavier classes. So yes, super quirked Clan omnis can be done, if required.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 January 2018 - 05:49 AM.

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 23 January 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

Because PGI doesn't want to, even after several Clan players requested it all the way back in 2014. Main reason is that omnimechs with full customization will render battlemechs obsolete, with their pod swapping. So no go. It is far more feasible to ask them to base their balancing on battlemechs, rather than restricted omnimechs. As for super quirks, a lot of IS mechs still have them, with offense quirks in 30% or above, and defense quirks that give them armor/structure value of heavier classes. So yes, super quirked Clan omnis can be done, if required.

See but thats not true, Omniis do not renger battlemechs more obsolete than battlemechs render omnis opbsolete should they have just beter hardpoints. This was just lore roulette if omnis or battles have better hardpoint combinations. The base for balanc is fromw hcih you build up, you should never make the base consist of the top. this entire idea is the reason why all those nerfs fail all the time because they start from the wrong side.

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 23 January 2018 - 05:59 AM, said:

See but thats not true, Omniis do not renger battlemechs more obsolete than battlemechs render omnis opbsolete should they have just beter hardpoints. This was just lore roulette if omnis or battles have better hardpoint combinations. The base for balanc is fromw hcih you build up, you should never make the base consist of the top. this entire idea is the reason why all those nerfs fail all the time because they start from the wrong side.

You are free to disagree but I personally think your view is misguided. Nerfing the tech based on battlemechs is the better approach, as it prevents powercreep, like KDK-3/MAD-IIC/MCII/Supernova did. Fully customizable omnimechs will make battlemechs obsolete, because it is far easier to have top level omnis in every tonnage level due to hardpoints swapping. Also, because omnimechs can swap the pods around to have multiple builds, they will require less mechbays, so by making them fully customizable, you are incentivizing people to buy only omnis, at the expense of battlemechs. Instead of making apples and oranges, you are making apples and better tasting apples.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 January 2018 - 06:08 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

El Bandito, on 23 January 2018 - 05:08 AM, said:

So balance the tech by Clan battlemech standards, and should any Clan omnimech fail to perform with nerfed Clan tech, use quirks to buff it to competence. Simple, and effective. And as a bonus, you can avoid mobility nerfs.

Except quirks dont work on omnimechs due to set of eight rule.

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 23 January 2018 - 06:18 AM, said:

Except quirks dont work on omnimechs due to set of eight rule.

PGI already have individual pod/CT based quirks for omnis--those do not require set of 8. They can enhance that. Next.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 January 2018 - 06:32 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

El Bandito, on 23 January 2018 - 06:21 AM, said:

PGI already have pod based quirks for omnis--those do not require set of 8. They can enhance that. Next.

We already have examples of PGI applying quirks to underperforming omnimechs and its not helping them. We do not have the examples of the contrary. Therefore there is no reason to believe in: either it works at all, and/or PGI's ability or willingness to do it.

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 23 January 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

We already have examples of PGI applying quirks to underperforming omnimechs and its not helping them. We do not have the examples of the contrary. Therefore there is no reason to believe in: either it works at all, and/or PGI's ability or willingness to do it.

Here is the deal:

1. Such pod quirkening did help certain omnimechs such as then unpopular Nova, and the Summoner, to become two of the most popular mechs in Clan roster--until PGI nerfed back said quirks. It can work, if done correctly.

2. PGI sucks at balancing. Everyone knows that by now. They have the tools, but lack everything else.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 January 2018 - 06:43 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Nema Nabojiv, on 23 January 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

We already have examples of PGI applying quirks to underperforming omnimechs and its not helping them. We do not have the examples of the contrary. Therefore there is no reason to believe in: either it works at all, and/or PGI's ability or willingness to do it.

The heavily quirked Summoner wasn't a large part of MWOWC 2017?

Fake News

[Asym]

Wow. I think you are both right and at the same time wrong... Balance can never be achieved because there is a misconcpetion that balance equates to fair.... There can be no "fair" or "just" arrangements because the source material itself wasn't balanced.

Look, you guys have the right of it in your discussion.... Unfortunately, balance is going the wrong way and causing huge amounts of gameplay errors that are simply illogical. Removing entire weapons systems from game use because they've been rendered ineffective and that, is the death of MWO IMO.

The only way to fix this is by going the opposite direction by reverting all weapons back to their most effective states and then, re-evaluating performance against a greatly reduced population and include that niche in the discussions as to where we need to go.... It must be a two sided conversation or the game will fail due to population loss......

[Y E O N N E]

Why is it whenever we are discussing "what should be" some crackerjack always has to go "except we don't have this thing here and now." Like, no sh*t Sherlock, that's why we are discussing the possibilities

[Nema Nabojiv]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 January 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

Why is it whenever we are discussing "what should be" some crackerjack always has to go "except we don't have this thing here and now." Like, no sh*t Sherlock, that's why we are discussing the possibilities

You can as well discuss the possibility of you bagning any celebrity of your liking, but it never happens if she doesnt want to. Thats the same story with PGI basically.

[El Bandito]

Asym, on 23 January 2018 - 06:43 AM, said:

The only way to fix this is by going the opposite direction by reverting all weapons back to their most effective states and then, re-evaluating performance against a greatly reduced population and include that niche in the discussions as to where we need to go.... It must be a two sided conversation or the game will fail due to population loss......

PGI shouldn't t try to include everyone in the balance discussion, as community will never come to consensus. The correct way of doing things is actually not very complicated: Balance base tech of engine/upgrades/equipments before weapons and mechs--starting from engine difference--and then weapons, and then mechs. Balance them in accordance to Clan battlemechs, as I said before, to avoid powercreep.