62 replies to this topic

[Der Geisterbaer]

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

This was not clear from your post. I said you can fit 5t of ammo and you were asking where those missing 1.5t should come from when stripping all lasers which i answered with "equip ferro and strip armor where it's not needed".

I'll just re-post it with underlined parts, okay?
Okay, so from stock loadout you remove 2.5t of energy weaponry that you can add to the already available 1t of mg ammo. Where do you intend to get the other 1.5t of ammo for a total of 5t? Smaller reactor nets 0.5t ... So you'd have to reduce armor by 1t - even when considering that you're most likely going to switch to Ferro in addition to the already Endo based chassis that'll make a squishy mech super squishy and wihout any backup weaponry.
Sound like one of the more "clever" plans.
So right ... nothing made that clear

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

Of cause i never said that the Piranha can fit 5t of ammo AND backup weapons.

And I didn't say you had ... false dilemma

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

The whole point was to prove that you can run 12MGs with more than enough ammo to pull your weight in a match.

Let's just say that I still doubt that you have proven anything of the like there.

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

You said "er-micro at best in that scenario" and i gave an example that er-micro is easy to do with still having 3.5t ammo left. And only your head is missing armor. That's not underarmored for a fast light that's almost never get hit in the cockpit by my experience.

Since I nowhere suggested that cockpit hits would be your problem you'll have to find out for yourself in which context I talked about "underarmored" ... Hint: It had something to do with small lasers

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

If you strip the mech only slightly (so it can probably be called underarmored rightfully) you can get to 7.5 ton to fit 3t of ammo and three er-smalls or heavies so it IS possible to have decent ammo AND better backup weapons than just er-micros. It's just a matter of preference if one prefers firepower/sustain or a few points of additional armor.

Well and that's where things get interesting: Significantly lower armor than a Mist Lynx that you further decreased, only 3/4 of the laser weaponry a Mist Lynx can field with the same amount of ammo for 12 instead of just 8 machine guns and no jump capability.

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

Not necessarily. It's no MLX with huge arms everyone knows to shoot at to disarm it. The Piranha's arms are tiny compared to MLX or ACH and will draw a lot less fire.

Instead the torsos will .. what happens again if you lose a torso?

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

No one will actively aim for the Piranha's arms with only a laser in it, especially not if it's a micro one. Players will shoot torso or legs. Sure it will happen that some stray shots will blow of an arm but this will happen much less often than on the MLX or ACH where everyone aims at the arms.

Remember: The comment revolved around your idea that you still have both arms (and torsos) by the time you run out of ammo.

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

I'm pretty confident that i will be able to preserve my arms long enough to make those lasers do some work for their weight.

I'm actually pretty sure that you better make good use of those lasers prior to running out of machine gun ammo.

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

Also even if both arms are gone you still have that laser in the CT.

Makes me wonder why I also mentioned that by the time you run out of ammo you're most likely down to jsut one laser ~shrug~

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

Which enables a third build option: 1 (Heavy) Medium in the CT and two er-micros in the arm if you think those will fall of too quickly.

See, you're not even trying to actually read / understand my comments. I actually nowhere claimed that the arms would "fall off too quickly". I merely pointed out that by the time you run out of ammo you'll probably no longer have both arms.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 21 January 2018 - 11:59 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

and they will die HORRIBLY

Considering that you're kind of flipp-flopping between positions where the Piranha is "OP" and then ..

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

1) piranha not particularly fast for a tiny mech
2) piranha likely wont have armor/structure quirks on anywhere but the legs</p>
3) only 20 tons
4) no jumpjets
5) no ecm/stealth armor shennanigans

... "weak sauce" I'm kind of unimpressed with your predictions.

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

how long you think pirahnas are going to last at 130m?

A bit shorter than my Mist Lynxes ... which is long enough to have some serious fun.

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

about 2 seconds against anyone competent.

Competent like you?

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

using LMGs will drastically increase piranha survivability and options. while both outdpsing and outranging the mistlynx.

And I still won't bet on your predictions comming true

[Grus]

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 January 2018 - 06:57 AM, said:

What pictures are you talking of?



In that picture the Piranha is about 10% taller and 20% wider than the Locust. Cross section of the legs and hip are close to identical. Cross section for torso is about 15% larger. So the only thing that the Locust actually loses out on is cross section from above and sides to a certain degree ...

Don't forget that the Locust bounces while it runs more than a chick with DD's lol so damage is spread unless it's a pulse or pinpoint wep.

[Mcgral18]

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

for real this sounds very unbalanced that's like 12 damage a second without overheating.
why do Assaults not have this consider they are large and sluggish

Mystere, on 21 January 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

12DPS is nothing to 60/90-point alpha strikes.

You have bigger problems if a Piranha wins against those odds stacked in your favor.

Oh, that's 12 DPS against armor

Remember, 9x CritDamMult and 52% Crit rates


It's over 20 DPS against Structure.

0.9
1.8
2.7
Crit Dam
Times .15 for actual damage

0.135
.27
.405
Potential REAL damage bonus


That's
31%
17%
4%
totaling 52%

Of 100 hits
48 won't Crit, resulting in 4.8 damage
52 will Crit, but will result in 5.2 normal damage PLUS the following
31 will Crit 1x, resulting in .135*31=4.185 bonus damage
17 will Crit 2x, resulting in .27*17=4.59 bonus damage
4 will Crit 3x, resulting in .405*4=1.62 bonus damage

Meaning over 100 shots, you could average 20.395 damage
Or, per MG you'd get ~2.04 DPS

Or, on a Piranha with 12 MGs, 24 DPS....
oh boy

And with 4 tons of ammo (You can get a realistic max of 5, or 4 with an ERML with NO arm or face armor, max elsewhere), that's 8000 rounds.
That's over a minute of firing non-stop, without the ammo nodes
800 damage without Crits, well over 1000 with Crits.



Its weakness will be durability, not damage potential.
Bloody hell, will it be fragile, though. 12 HP legs, 16 armor
28?
Whatever the skill tree does to that, anything which touches it will critically hurt it.

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 January 2018 - 12:21 PM.

[Daggett]

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 January 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

See, you're not even trying to actually read / understand my comments. I actually nowhere claimed that the arms would "fall off too quickly". I merely pointed out that by the time you run out of ammo you'll probably no longer have both arms.

I could say the same, i don't have the feeling that you get my point too.

In my eyes this basically boils down to you believing that the mech is too fragile to survive long enough to have it's arm-mounted backup lasers still intact when ammo runs dry and that a build without backup lasers is bad while i think both builds are viable.

We should just agree that we disagree, only playing the mech and see how it performs will prove anything here.

[Grus]

Bombast, on 21 January 2018 - 06:51 AM, said:

The Piranha is both taller than the Locust (Just barely), and has significantly worse hit boxes (Dynamic geometry has forced it to be board shaped).

It would be fairly easy to shoot, comparatively, without the durability quirks that keep mechs like the Commando from imploding at the drop of a hat.

I would have liked a comparison to the commando rather than the locust.

[Bombast]

Grus, on 21 January 2018 - 01:11 PM, said:

I would have liked a comparison to the commando rather than the locust.

I'm not going to do a hitbox overlay on this one. I have some work I've been dodging I have to do.

[Abisha]

Mystere, on 21 January 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

12DPS is nothing to 60/90-point alpha strikes.

You have bigger problems if a Piranha wins against those odds stacked in your favor.

obvious you not have pressed play button recently 60/90 alpha is pulling numbers out of a tin hat.
good try but you have to try better sir.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

I could say the same, i don't have the feeling that you get my point too.

Trust me, I do get your point. It's just that you tend to take my comments out of context as if I had said something I actually never said. Look right here:

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

In my eyes this basically boils down to you believing that the mech is too fragile to survive long enough to have it's arm-mounted backup lasers still intact when ammo runs dry and that a build without backup lasers is bad while i think both builds are viable.

Where did I ever say the mech is "too fragile to survive long enough to have it's arm-mounted backup lasers still intact"? Exactly: Nowhere.
Will you have matches where all three lasers are still intact while having no ammo? Certainly, but that won't be the general case. More often you will be just dead way before running out of ammo. And with all likelyhood you'll also see more matches where you simply no longer have all three lasers up and running should you live long enough to run dry on ammo.
I'm not even remotely suggesting that either build can't or won't be viable but I have my doubts that they'll be as good as you make them out to be ... which in turn also means that I strongly object to the opening post's suggestion of the 12 mg Piranha being "ridiculously strong".

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

We should just agree that we disagree, only playing the mech and see how it performs will prove anything here.

I fully intend to alternate between several Piranha builds and my goto built of the Mist Lynx

[Mcgral18]

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 01:22 PM, said:

obvious you not have pressed play button recently 60/90 alpha is pulling numbers out of a tin hat.
good try but you have to try better sir.

wat?
Deathstrike does 94 no problem

[Abisha]

Grus, on 21 January 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

you mean like dual heavy gauss? 50pnt of pin point damage for no heat?

a other fool that can't read Damage output gauss is 15 damage 2 of them is 30 damage not pin point and easy to match the damage output with only a few lasers that produce next to nothing on heat.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

a other fool that can't read Damage output gauss is 15 damage 2 of them is 30 damage not pin point and easy to match the damage output with only a few lasers that produce next to nothing on heat.

You're the "fool" now ... because the text you quoted most definitely mentions HEAVY gauss. You might want to look up the damage numbers for those.

[Abisha]

Mcgral18, on 21 January 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

wat?
Deathstrike does 94 no problem

super nova can in theory do 120 damage only takes 4 mins to cooldown after shutdown wow that's useful really.

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 January 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

You're the "fool" now ... because the text you quoted most definitely mentions HEAVY gauss. You might want to look up the damage numbers for those.

Jesus no freaking mech can fit 2 heavy gauss man get real. or get lost

[Der Geisterbaer]

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

Jesus no freaking mech can fit 2 heavy gauss man get real. or get lost

You might want to look at the ANH-1X for reference ...

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 21 January 2018 - 01:40 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 January 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

You might want to look at the ANH-1X for reference ...

Or Mauler
Or Cyclops

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

super nova can in theory do 120 damage only takes 4 mins to cooldown after shutdown wow that's useful really.

You're a little out of touch with the game, it seems

MkII-I is out for Cbills, the inferior variant of the Deathstrike
He does 80, no problem, just misses out on 2 ERMLs and gains a JJ (or 2 tons of whatever)

[Abisha]

Mcgral18, on 21 January 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

Or Mauler
Or Cyclops




You're a little out of touch with the game, it seems

MkII-I is out for Cbills, the inferior variant of the Deathstrike
He does 80, no problem, just misses out on 2 ERMLs and gains a JJ (or 2 tons of whatever)

if that's really true it's also very out of wackes and really shows how terrible PGI balance the game.

[Mcgral18]

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

if that's really true it's also very out of wackes and really shows how terrible PGI balance the game.

Correct

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 January 2018 - 01:42 PM.

[Mystere]

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 01:22 PM, said:

obvious you not have pressed play button recently 60/90 alpha is pulling numbers out of a tin hat.
good try but you have to try better sir.

Clan loadout for DAY 6 of event: 6xCSRM6 + 4xERSL

I leave the calculation to you because I think you could use the homework to improve your math skills.

Tin hat my butt. <smh>

Mcgral18, on 21 January 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

wat?
Deathstrike does 94 no problem

Precisely. And he has the nerve to call others a fool:

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

a other fool that can't read Damage output gauss is 15 damage 2 of them is 30 damage not pin point and easy to match the damage output with only a few lasers that produce next to nothing on heat.

Hey, you!
Yes, you!
You just confirmed you do need that math homework. So go get started, stat.

Mcgral18, on 21 January 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

You're a little out of touch with the game, it seems

That as well. And he had the nerve to accuse me as such.

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

if that's really true it's also very out of wackes and really shows how terrible PGI balance the game.

You're not going to wiggle your way out of this one that easily.

<sound of sharpening knives with a maniacal in the background>

Edited by Mystere, 21 January 2018 - 02:43 PM.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 21 January 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

Oh, that's 12 DPS against armor

Remember, 9x CritDamMult and 52% Crit rates


It's over 20 DPS against Structure.

0.9
1.8
2.7
Crit Dam
Times .15 for actual damage

0.135
.27
.405
Potential REAL damage bonus


That's
31%
17%
4%
totaling 52%

Of 100 hits
48 won't Crit, resulting in 4.8 damage
52 will Crit, but will result in 5.2 normal damage PLUS the following
31 will Crit 1x, resulting in .135*31=4.185 bonus damage
17 will Crit 2x, resulting in .27*17=4.59 bonus damage
4 will Crit 3x, resulting in .405*4=1.62 bonus damage

Meaning over 100 shots, you could average 20.395 damage
Or, per MG you'd get ~2.04 DPS

Or, on a Piranha with 12 MGs, 24 DPS....
oh boy

And with 4 tons of ammo (You can get a realistic max of 5, or 4 with an ERML with NO arm or face armor, max elsewhere), that's 8000 rounds.
That's over a minute of firing non-stop, without the ammo nodes
800 damage without Crits, well over 1000 with Crits.



Its weakness will be durability, not damage potential.
Bloody hell, will it be fragile, though. 12 HP legs, 16 armor
28?
Whatever the skill tree does to that, anything which touches it will critically hurt it.

That's fine and dandy, but ...

My point was that a single well-placed alpha would make that little fish go "Boom!".

Edited by Mystere, 21 January 2018 - 03:18 PM.

[Khereg]

Mcgral18, on 21 January 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

<good info stripped for clarity>
Or, on a Piranha with 12 MGs, 24 DPS.... (on exposed structure)
oh boy

<more good info stripped to reveal key second point>
Its weakness will be durability, not damage potential.
Bloody hell, will it be fragile, though. 12 HP legs, 16 armor
28?
Whatever the skill tree does to that, anything which touches it will critically hurt it.

Check, and check.

Clearly hiding all match and jumping out once the enemy's structure is exposed is the tactic to use.

I'll just go shut down in a corner at the start of the match, grab an iced tea or other beverage of preference, and see everyone at the 5 minute mark.

ggclose.

Edited by Khereg, 22 January 2018 - 09:50 AM.