108 replies to this topic

[FunkyT]

So I'm not sure how to feel about this one.

From what I can tell, a lot of people have been asking for this thing for a long time and will likely be very happy to have it appear in the game. So that's nice.

But everything about this mech just seems....excessive.


12 MG-Hardpoints (can't really call them Ballistic hardpoints on a 20tonner). The next thing in terms of Ballistic hardpoints is the Dire Wolf with 8, if I'm not mistaken?

15 Energy Hardpoints? Think the Nova can have 12, not sure if anything else has 15.

4 AMS hardpoints? That's a first.


It feels like the Guys and Gals at PGI just thought "What if we put the most of literally everything on a Locust?". Maybe they thought it'll balance itself out, with it being "Just a 20tonner". But it's a Clan 20tonner, that's a big difference.

I think it's already ridiculous that the default loadout on the 1 is 12 C-MGs, 2 ER Meds and an ER Small. If LMGs are lighter than regular ones (think they are, even for Clans?), there's even more room in there.


And at the same time, what does the other party have? A Locust. A mech that goes a bit faster, is pretty much the same size and can field a fraction of the firepower.
Generally speaking, the Piranha will be able to field more firepower than probably any IS Light. Who knows, maybe even more than some IS Mediums too.

All of this seems completely exagerated to me. Not just for IS vs Clan balance, but in general. Ludicrous amounts of firepower on one of the fastest and smallest mechs in the game.
Not sure how I feel about that.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Bombast]

I think that, in the grand scale, it's not a big deal. Piranhas are going to have to make a lot of sacrifices to do the 'scarier' stuff they're capable of.

But yah. The Locust may be in a bit of a tough spot, specifically. It looks like its slightly short and has better hit boxes... we're have to see if that's enough.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Its pretty limited. It has super weak armor so it will get worn down very quickly and with its main builds focusing around machine guns, it will have to have a lot of face time on targets to be able to put out its damage which will get it killed faster. The 15 energy slot one could be pretty nice with something like 12 ER small lasers so that it can push out a 60 damage strike running it up to about 100% heat then it attempts to run off and cool down, but with it being a 20 tonner it doesn't even have 10 trudubs, so that's going to take some time and limit its total damage output significantly.

Its guns also aren't that great against other light mechs since other lights just spread damage well, so it would just get one shotted by something like a Wolfhound running 6 MPLs.

[FunkyT]

True, the humanoid and upright stature of the Piranha might make it easier to hit compared to the Locust. We'll have to see about that.

But what kinds of sacrifices will they have to make for their firepower? I mean the 12 MGs, 2 ER Meds are already on the biggest engine.
Sure, the 15 Energy one will be hot as all hell, even with Micro lasers and that dissipation quirk.
But the 12 MG one? I'm not exactly looking forward to 12 LMGs critting me out in seconds somewhere around 300 - 400m away. It's not exactly the most fun experience with only 6 MGs knawing away at me, can only imagine what 12 will feel like.

I'll have to see, I guess.


Post Edit:
The 4 AMS part was just to bring the point across. Just another thing the Piranha will have the most of, for no apparent reason. As I said, this mechs hardpoint design just seems excessive in my eyes.

Edited by FunkyT, 20 January 2018 - 11:46 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Nova can have 14 energy if you swap the pods around. Storm Crow up to 13.

My thoughts on this are that there's so far been an unbroken limit of 10 offensively oriented hardpoints on IS 'Mechs, period. No IS 'Mech gets more than that. That's not really a big deal on its own because it's quite difficult to actually use that many with how large IS DHS and Endo are; you'd have to boat single-slot weapons. What does concern me is that when there is an IS 'Mech that is supposed to have more than 10 (missiles on Thanatos and Fafnir heroes), PGI consolidates them into fewer hardpoints so they don't break the limit-of-10 rule and that seems a bit biased to me. Soaking up 10 hardpoints with SRM2/4 or Rocket Launchers and also trying to fit on other weapons heavy enough to justify such heavy 'Mechs is going to be getting onto a struggle-bus, so I don't see it as broken. It merely gives you the option of doing missile boating OR doing something else.

I don't know that the PIR is going to be OP. It can fit more firepower than my MLX can and run 34 kph faster, but it can't jump and it has a massive deficit in armor/structure. We'll see.

WTB: 8x E for LCT-1E, 7x E for LCT-3M, 6xB + 1xE for LCT-1V, 4xB + 2xE for LCT-3V, and lots of love for the Spider...

[sycocys]

I always had fun with the Arrow running 6 MG and a couple lasers, and even if it wasn't strictly a killing machine it racked up a whole pile of what I'd refer to as artificial damage - wasn't uncommon to get 900+ damage in that mech.

12 MGs and a couple lasers should be a lot of fun and probably net similar results given it has less tonnage for ammo, will just get it in faster bursts.

[Mechrophilia]

Promessa, on 20 January 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

mg's are really only useful against structure.

12 regular MGs have the same dps as 4 AC5s at point blank range. I doubt that piranha users will use regular MGs though. Light MGs are a 3 ton savings over Regs.

Regardless, streaks are going to annihilate this thing.

[Y E O N N E]

Mechrophilia, on 20 January 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

12 regular MGs have the same dps as 4 AC5s at point blank range. I doubt that piranha users will use regular MGs though. Light MGs are a 3 ton savings over Regs.

Regardless, streaks are going to annihilate this thing.

No they aren't. LMGs and MGs weigh the same as each other: 0.25 tons for Clan and 0.5 tons for IS.

Regular MGs are the best MGs.

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 January 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

No they aren't. LMGs and MGs weigh the same as each other: 0.25 tons for Clan and 0.5 tons for IS.

Regular MGs are the best MGs.

I might try LMGs, simply because 150M is very close range...but its faster than the Lynx, so maybe that won't be as much of an issue

[InspectorG]

Skill in the mechlab, skill in the cockpit will make these things work.

Many white belt Light-Fu pilots who think 12MG is auto-1-hit-kill-OP will learn very fast that face tanking will not work.

I expect grumbles of buyers remorse on this, essentially, troll mech.

[roboPrancer]

It's not gonna break anything. It will be broken by a lot of stuff. Mg's will be fun and decently effective. Not particularly more effective than the other options for mg boating which have jumpjets though.

[Der Geisterbaer]

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

12 MG-Hardpoints (can't really call them Ballistic hardpoints on a 20tonner).

Which is canon armarment. So the "excess" came with the original design.

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

The next thing in terms of Ballistic hardpoints is the Dire Wolf with 8, if I'm not mistaken?

Any Mist Lynx with arm pods from the G-variant  can also have 8 MG-Hardpoints. Arctic Cheetah hero with bot E-variant arms is also able to field 8 machine guns.

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

15 Energy Hardpoints? Think the Nova can have 12,

14 on a Nova (arms: Prime = 12 [6*2], LT: A =1, RT: B =1) as well as Executioner (RT: E =3, LT: D or C =1, RA: D =7, LA: A =3)

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

not sure if anything else has 15.

Not to my knowledge

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

4 AMS hardpoints? That's a first.

Indeed an novelty ... but the same was true when the Kit Fox C came around

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

It feels like the Guys and Gals at PGI just thought "What if we put the most of literally everything on a Locust?".

Not really ... Both Pir-1 and Pir-2 come from TT. The 12 mg Pir-1 stems from back from 1995 (Technical Readout: 3058)

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

Maybe they thought it'll balance itself out, with it being "Just a 20tonner". But it's a Clan 20tonner, that's a big difference.

I'm not quite sure where you're trying to go with that "big difference".

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

I think it's already ridiculous that the default loadout on the 1 is 12 C-MGs, 2 ER Meds and an ER Small.

Again: Canon loadout from TT that dates back to 1995.

That aside, try to tell me how exactly that loadout is more "ridiculous" than let's say a Mist Lynx G with 4 ER Smalls and 8 C-MG for which it carries 3.5t of ammo where the Piranha has 1t? All that with significantly more armor and structure plus jump jets that make it vastly superior on difficult ground.

Now how often do you see "Crit-Lynxes" these days in your matches and how often do see them really being the "match winners"?

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

If LMGs are lighter than regular ones (think they are, even for Clans?), there's even more room in there.

C-LMG and C-MG have identical weight of 0.25t per item, so no weight gains possible there.

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

And at the same time, what does the other party have? A Locust. A mech that goes a bit faster, is pretty much the same size and can field a fraction of the firepower.

Ultimately that's true with pretty much all IS mechs when looking at the exact same weight on clan side.

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

Generally speaking, the Piranha will be able to field more firepower than probably any IS Light.

And it'll be interesting to see how sustainable those raw numbers over the course of a match actually will be.

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

All of this seems completely exagerated to me.

Well, one might think that you're the one exagerating there ... at least a bit

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

Ludicrous amounts of firepower on one of the fastest and smallest mechs in the game.

the terminology "glass cannon" comes to mind.

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

What are your thoughts on this?

I'll just wait until the release crazyness has washed over us (expecting "Kodiak release 2.0" levels of Piranhas swarming QP). Then I'll see whether or not the numbers of SSRM builds truly become more dominant long term in order to deal with those ankle biters or if Piranhas just become a variation of the "Crit Lynx" phenomena.

Until then I'll enjoy myself with finding out what loadout on those things is the best for me

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 20 January 2018 - 01:07 PM.

[Luminis]

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

It feels like the Guys and Gals at PGI just thought "What if we put the most of literally everything on a Locust?". Maybe they thought it'll balance itself out, with it being "Just a 20tonner". But it's a Clan 20tonner, that's a big difference.

For what's it worth, the PIR-1, -2, -3 and -4 weren't designed by PGI, only the -A, -B and -CT are apocryphal variants introduced strictly for MWO. I mean, yeah, they didn't have to put it into the game (even though it was requested a lot), but it was the guys at FASA some thirty years ago who decided a Light with that loadout was gonna be a good idea.

As for the 'Mech itself... Being five tons Lighter than the MLX and thus the only Clan 20 tonner is important for CW deck building, but all things considered, I have my fair share of doubts that it'll be that much scarier than the good, ol' MLX in practice. Sure, it's faster but it lacks the JJs and the durability quirks. Unless hit reg / the 'Mech's hitboxes are royally messed up, it'll pop easily.

I'll worry about the them being too good if it actually happens. For now, I see enough downsides to not fear them that much more than the MLX.

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 20 January 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

I might try LMGs, simply because 150M is very close range...but its faster than the Lynx, so maybe that won't be as much of an issue

Even the MLX is better with standard MGs.

[Mystere]

FunkyT, on 20 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

So I'm not sure how to feel about this one.

From what I can tell, a lot of people have been asking for this thing for a long time and will likely be very happy to have it appear in the game. So that's nice.

But everything about this mech just seems....excessive.


12 MG-Hardpoints (can't really call them Ballistic hardpoints on a 20tonner). The next thing in terms of Ballistic hardpoints is the Dire Wolf with 8, if I'm not mistaken?

15 Energy Hardpoints? Think the Nova can have 12, not sure if anything else has 15.
...
It feels like the Guys and Gals at PGI just thought "What if we put the most of literally everything on a Locust?".
...

You are aware of this page, right? <smh>

Edited by Mystere, 20 January 2018 - 01:04 PM.

[topgun505]

You are working on the assumption that its hitboxes are reasonable. Which it might have. But if it is like the Assassin ....

Dakota1000, on 20 January 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

Its pretty limited. It has super weak armor so it will get worn down very quickly and with its main builds focusing around machine guns, it will have to have a lot of face time on targets to be able to put out its damage which will get it killed faster. The 15 energy slot one could be pretty nice with something like 12 ER small lasers so that it can push out a 60 damage strike running it up to about 100% heat then it attempts to run off and cool down, but with it being a 20 tonner it doesn't even have 10 trudubs, so that's going to take some time and limit its total damage output significantly.

Its guns also aren't that great against other light mechs since other lights just spread damage well, so it would just get one shotted by something like a Wolfhound running 6 MPLs.

[InvictusLee]

I know its a troll mech. I put down 50 bucks anyway. Because although my expectations of the mech will be low despite its firepower, i can bet its going to be more fun than my mistlynx and cheeta.

[Luminis]

topgun505, on 20 January 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

You are working on the assumption that its hitboxes are reasonable. Which it might have. But if it is like the Assassin ....

That's a big "if", imho.

[Airu]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 January 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

Nova can have 14 energy if you swap the pods around. Storm Crow up to 13.

My thoughts on this are that there's so far been an unbroken limit of 10 offensively oriented hardpoints on IS 'Mechs, period. No IS 'Mech gets more than that. That's not really a big deal on its own because it's quite difficult to actually use that many with how large IS DHS and Endo are; you'd have to boat single-slot weapons. What does concern me is that when there is an IS 'Mech that is supposed to have more than 10 (missiles on Thanatos and Fafnir heroes), PGI consolidates them into fewer hardpoints so they don't break the limit-of-10 rule and that seems a bit biased to me. Soaking up 10 hardpoints with SRM2/4 or Rocket Launchers and also trying to fit on other weapons heavy enough to justify such heavy 'Mechs is going to be getting onto a struggle-bus, so I don't see it as broken. It merely gives you the option of doing missile boating OR doing something else.

I don't know that the PIR is going to be OP. It can fit more firepower than my MLX can and run 34 kph faster, but it can't jump and it has a massive deficit in armor/structure. We'll see.

WTB: 8x E for LCT-1E, 7x E for LCT-3M, 6xB + 1xE for LCT-1V, 4xB + 2xE for LCT-3V, and lots of love for the Spider...

Make spider great again
Seriously, I am probably one of the few people who run all 3 spiders more than 50% of the time... It needs some help in perspective of things to come. Especially poor 5V, 20% cooldown doesnt do it

[Jay Leon Hart]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 January 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

My thoughts on this are that there's so far been an unbroken limit of 10 offensively oriented hardpoints on IS 'Mechs, period. No IS 'Mech gets more than that. That's not really a big deal on its own because it's quite difficult to actually use that many with how large IS DHS and Endo are; you'd have to boat single-slot weapons. What does concern me is that when there is an IS 'Mech that is supposed to have more than 10 (missiles on Thanatos and Fafnir heroes), PGI consolidates them into fewer hardpoints so they don't break the limit-of-10 rule and that seems a bit biased to me. Soaking up 10 hardpoints with SRM2/4 or Rocket Launchers and also trying to fit on other weapons heavy enough to justify such heavy 'Mechs is going to be getting onto a struggle-bus, so I don't see it as broken. It merely gives you the option of doing missile boating OR doing something else.

[nitpick]
The ANH-1X has 11 hardpoints (4B, 7E)
[/nitpick]

The cries on Pay-2-Win for the Hangover (9M, 4E changed to 5M, 5E) & Wrath (10M, 1B, 5E changed to 4M, 1B, 5E) would have been terrible, though PGI could have just inflated the other variants to compensate.

Nightstar could use a little more inflation, too.