26 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

What if IS Omnimechs with XL engine, such as the Avatar, the Black-Hawk-KU, Firestarter, Blackjack -- etc. Would be made to survive one side torso lost like CXL? Would they be a worthy addition?

What would it mean for the Omnimechs with Standard Engines? What about those stuck with low engine cap, like the Blackjack Omnimech is stuck at 200, and at 64.8 KPH? Would the availability of a 1-torso survivable IS-XL mean that the Battlemech versions could be obsoleted? after all we can just change omnipods.

[FupDup]

Engine balance should be consistent across all gundams for a particular faction. Giving Omnis special engines will just add another variable into a balancing paradigm that is already bloated with so many variables.

If PGI ever does finally get around to rebalancing engines, IS Battlemechs had better be able to benefit from a buffed XL as well.

Edited by FupDup, 22 January 2018 - 06:51 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 22 January 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Engine balance should be consistent across all gundams for a particular faction. Giving Omnis special engines will just add another variable into a balancing paradigm that is already bloated with so many variables.

If PGI ever does finally get around to rebalancing engines, IS Battlemechs had better be able to benefit from a buffed XL as well.

My concern would be how would they tackle it. Look at BJ omnimech, at 64.8 KPH, paltry 50-tonner's armor, sure it could probably boat a lot of guns, but at this point it's a really slow medium or a really lightly-armored heavy. And the worse part is that, the Blackjack Battlemech has a wide profile so i assume that would be a bit wider, in addition of an XL engine that would kill an IS mech with only a single torso lost.


How do they entice people to use something like that? Do they messily overquirk the damn thing too? Or do they just allow IS Omnimechs engine type change?

So far, i think the only thing that would entice me to use a 64.8KPH 50-tonner IS omnimech with IS tech, stuck at XL engine, is when they make it at least more survivable.

[Y E O N N E]

I wouldn't be against a god-armor quirk for the BJ-O. :x

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 22 January 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Engine balance should be consistent across all gundams for a particular faction. Giving Omnis special engines will just add another variable into a balancing paradigm that is already bloated with so many variables.

If PGI ever does finally get around to rebalancing engines, IS Battlemechs had better be able to benefit from a buffed XL as well.

Yep, engine balance will actually help PGI to address other imbalances quite nicely. PGI should address engine balancing before all else.

[Bombast]

I'm with FupDup on this one. If for no other reason than the game is complete garbage when it comes to explaining stuff, so changing how equipment works per mech is just a confusing mess for everyone who isn't going through patch notes with combs.

[Lily from animove]

FupDup, on 22 January 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Engine balance should be consistent across all gundams for a particular faction. Giving Omnis special engines will just add another variable into a balancing paradigm that is already bloated with so many variables.

If PGI ever does finally get around to rebalancing engines, IS Battlemechs had better be able to benefit from a buffed XL as well.

just remove Omni construction rules, there are battlemechs that have better hardpoints than some omnis so nothing that an omni offers will ever exceed such an battlemech. But doing so will give those omnis with unsuitable laodout the possibility to get up form their hole. Further wiht the skilltree many omnipod swap ideas aren't that great anymore due to lakcign synergies int he weapon tree anyways.

Edited by Lily from animove, 23 January 2018 - 01:14 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

FupDup, on 22 January 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Engine balance should be consistent across all gundams for a particular faction. Giving Omnis special engines will just add another variable into a balancing paradigm that is already bloated with so many variables.

If PGI ever does finally get around to rebalancing engines, IS Battlemechs had better be able to benefit from a buffed XL as well.

Or...

Instead of an IS/Clan split (2 engines)
Have a BattleMech/OmniMech split (2 engines)

So XL engines become a factor in BM/OM balance, instead of IS/Clan balance.

[Verilligo]

Jay Leon Hart, on 24 January 2018 - 10:24 AM, said:

Or...

Instead of an IS/Clan split (2 engines)
Have a BattleMech/OmniMech split (2 engines)

So XL engines become a factor in BM/OM balance, instead of IS/Clan balance.

This seems even more fiddly and doesn't really fix the problems that actually need to be addressed. I'd just go ahead and say we don't need asymmetrical engine and heat sink balancing when we're already having enough trouble with weapon balancing. Is anyone going to lose sleep if you just make Clan and IS engines and HS identical in all respects? Ignore, for the moment, further balancing for LFEs and standards that might become necessary, I mean strictly with respect to basic engine performance and HS between factions.

Edited by Verilligo, 24 January 2018 - 10:42 AM.

[naterist]

Please remove the stupid st loss rule, or implement crits on engines exactly like tabletop did. You cant do this half assed system that isnt balanced and isnt a strict adherent to tt rules and say it works for either level. Either commit to the FULL tabletop rules, or adjust the mechanic for balance.

You cant do both pgi.

[MechaBattler]

Or just give side torsos the Hunchback 4G treatment. Armor, structure, and crit chance reduction.

[Rusharn]

Personally I think the IS omni's should be able to mount clan weapons. That would be incentive enough to use the IS omin's even if they are running XL's

[Y E O N N E]

Rusharn, on 26 January 2018 - 07:59 AM, said:

Personally I think the IS omni's should be able to mount clan weapons. That would be incentive enough to use the IS omin's even if they are running XL's

Technically, they can. A lot of them even have Clan-tech-specific R-variants.

But for the sake of MWO diversity, I'd rather just leave that out.

[process]

If we stick with current Omni construction rules, I would expect engines/heatsinks/upgrades to be locked and then have crappy mechs get the buhjesus quirked out of them.

Alternately, IS and Clan Omnis play by different rules. Maybe IS Omnis get an engine unlock, or just the ability to sidegrade to LFE or standard. In theory the potential weapons loadout should compensate for the engine just like so many small engine Clan mechs, but that contingent on those locked engines not being a death sentence.

Single heatsinks are a problem, and would be less of a concern if many, including PGI, didn't discard them as more than a new player tax. If mechs with single heatsinks received the equivalent of 10 double heatsinks in their engines the disparity between single and double heatsinks would become a much smaller issue, and then it just becomes a tonnage vs space tradeoff.

At a certain point, if you unlock too many things, there's no trade-off for being an omni.

[The6thMessenger]

process, on 26 January 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

If we stick with current Omni construction rules, I would expect engines/heatsinks/upgrades to be locked and then have crappy mechs get the buhjesus quirked out of them.

Alternately, IS and Clan Omnis play by different rules. Maybe IS Omnis get an engine unlock, or just the ability to sidegrade to LFE or standard. In theory the potential weapons loadout should compensate for the engine just like so many small engine Clan mechs, but that contingent on those locked engines not being a death sentence.

Single heatsinks are a problem, and would be less of a concern if many, including PGI, didn't discard them as more than a new player tax. If mechs with single heatsinks received the equivalent of 10 double heatsinks in their engines the disparity between single and double heatsinks would become a much smaller issue, and then it just becomes a tonnage vs space tradeoff.

At a certain point, if you unlock too many things, there's no trade-off for being an omni.

Honestly, i'd rather they just make IS Omni survive ST XL loss. At least they have better fire power and survivability versus standard battlemechs, even if something like the Blackjack Omni runs slower.

[Khobai]

Quote

At a certain point, if you unlock too many things, there's no trade-off for being an omni.

theres no advantage for being an omni

a battlemech with perfect hardpoints is better than an omni with perfect hardpoints

clan omnis can use clan tech thats the only reason theyre not worse than IS battlemechs.

but IS omnis will be worse than IS battlemechs with perfect hardpoints

omnis could actually use a buff IMO. either that or nerf all perfect battlemechs.

and obviously IS omnis also need ISXL to survive side torso blowout

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 04:33 PM.

[ANOM O MECH]

The6thMessenger, on 22 January 2018 - 06:48 PM, said:

What if IS Omnimechs with XL engine, such as the Avatar, the Black-Hawk-KU, Firestarter, Blackjack -- etc. Would be made to survive one side torso lost like CXL? Would they be a worthy addition?

What would it mean for the Omnimechs with Standard Engines? What about those stuck with low engine cap, like the Blackjack Omnimech is stuck at 200, and at 64.8 KPH? Would the availability of a 1-torso survivable IS-XL mean that the Battlemech versions could be obsoleted? after all we can just change omnipods.

Can't speak for everyone, but I could live with the XL since for most of the time I have played, you needed them to be able to compete in them.

Biggest issue is the heat sinks.

Any mech with locked single heat sinks will not be viable.

PGI would have to ignore lore if they wanted to inject IS omni's in game.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

theres no advantage for being an omni

a battlemech with perfect hardpoints is better than an omni with perfect hardpoints

The thing with Omnis is that they aren't perfect, it's that you can change them, mix and match. Buy one omni, you buy all of them (except ct hardpoints and premium omnis)

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

clan omnis can use clan tech thats the only reason theyre not worse than IS battlemechs.

but IS omnis will be worse than IS battlemechs with perfect hardpoints

Depends on how IS omnis are implemented. Although the larger DHS, and more vulnerable XL engine would be a massive downside for IS omnis, the larger ones that has complete dubs wouldn't have much problem with DHS unless they still have fixed DHS outside of the engine, leaving only the XL problem to deal with.

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

omnis could actually use a buff IMO. either that or nerf all perfect battlemechs.

Why? Are they under performing? Or you just want to buff them on the misconstrued basis that they couldn't get the perfect hardpoints?

[process]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

theres no advantage for being an omni

a battlemech with perfect hardpoints is better than an omni with perfect hardpoints

clan omnis can use clan tech thats the only reason theyre not worse than IS battlemechs.

but IS omnis will be worse than IS battlemechs with perfect hardpoints

omnis could actually use a buff IMO. either that or nerf all perfect battlemechs.

and obviously IS omnis also need ISXL to survive side torso blowout

I would say a good battlemech > good omnimech >>>> bad omnimech > bad battlemech. I've also advocated for keeping the engine and heatsinks locked as the distinction for omnis, to help bridge the gap between the goods and the bads.

[Khobai]

Quote

Why? Are they under performing? Or you just want to buff them on the misconstrued basis that they couldn't get the perfect hardpoints?

I already explained why

because an omnimech with perfect hardpoints is inferior to a battlemech with perfect hardpoints

the madcat mk2 for example is superior to an executioner. even though the executioners hardpoint combinations are pretty good, its locked equipment makes it inferior.

and yes they do underperform compared to perfect battlemechs because of locked equipment. you cant minmax them to the same degree as battlemechs. the only way an omnimech can ever equal a perfect battlemech is if all its locked equipment is also perfect. which happens on very few omnimechs.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 06:12 PM.