23 replies to this topic

[MechanicalWraith]

Ballistic weapons are sorely limited in MWO, while we may be resigned to never getting alternative ammunition types there's still hope for fresh new toys. MG-Arrays offer a new weapon that'll take next to no work to implement, yet fill a tonnage bracket no ballistic weapon currently does, and provide slow heavy mechs with a much needed yet subtle weapon to fight light mechs with.

Proposed weapons:

Each weapon would simply be a heavier, larger variant of the single MG, clustering four machine-guns into a single weapon that assumes the same slots as 4 single MGs, and 0.5 tons additional weight.

Inner Sphere Light Machine Gun Array - 2.5 tons, 4 slots.
Inner Sphere Machine Gun Array - 2.5 tons, 4 slots.
Inner Sphere Heavy Machine Gun Array 4.5 tons, 4 slots.

Clan Light Machine Gun Array - 1.5 tons, 4 slots.
Clan Machine Gun Array - 1.5 tons, 4 slots.
Clan Heavy Machine Gun Array - 2.5 tons, 4 slots.

Implementing these weapons requires no special work, merely cloning the existing MGs and altering a few stats would suffice while new models/particles/sounds are pending.

Models should be identical to existing MGs, but with duplicate barrels.

Particle FX are easier still, cloning and duplicating the existing VFX.

Sounds (SFX) are equally easy to achieve if deemed necessary (they're really not), a faint metallic echo applied to the existing MG sounds would perfectly reflect the rattle of slightly offset muzzle blasts.

Edited by MechanicalWraith, 25 January 2018 - 08:17 AM.

[GX9900 Gundam X]

I think this would be a good idea. I have the Cicada that has ECM and a single ballistic hardpoint, and have been using it as a light gauss sniper. I always wanted to try running machineguns on it though, but cant because it only has one hardpoint. Similarily, on my Shadowcat, I wanted to use the ballistic hardpoint on the right arm for machineguns so I could use an ECM torso, but again, only one hardpoint. Having these machinegun arrays would open up new options for mechs with few or only a single ballistic hardpoint, or with hardpoints grouped together in weird areas (like for example, you have 5 ballistic hardpoints but they're spread out all over your mech as opposed to just being in the arms or in a single torso).

It would also let some Urbanmechs run 9-12 machineguns depending on if an Array contains 3 or 4 machineguns. Heheh.

[MechanicalWraith]

The best thing about MG arrays for me is that fast light mechs won't get much benefit from them due to tonnage limitations, whereas mediums and light heavies are the ones that can mount arrays and still achieve the speed required to employ them effectively - which is good as the medium mech segment is often underpopulated whilst in theory they should be the most common sight on the battlefield after heavy mechs, either holding the flanks or guarding assaults against light harassers.

MG Arrays should see medium mechs finally take a respectable and versatile role on the Quick-play battlefield, and provide mechs of all sizes with limited ballistic hardpoints the ability to operate a cool auxiliary weapon with meaningful impact.

For those who object on the basis that MG arrays in TT (source: Sarna.net) were merely a way of grouping machine guns together for aiming purposes and not a distinct weapon - The proposed MG arrays fit that bill quite well, their representation as a new weapon item in MWO being simply a necessary abstraction due to game* limitations, and the ability to cluster as many as four small calibre guns together in place of a larger ballistic weapon is also thematic, MWO already allows us to instantly refit mechs to degrees that in lore represented designing a whole new variant.

[Daggett]

The problem i see with this that it has the potential of making many mechs OP especially on Clan side. Most clan mediums and heavies can field at least 4 of those arrays, some even more. That's 16+ MGs with enough ammo and in most cases additional weapons. No one wants to face that.

Imagine a DWF-UV with up to 8 MG-Arrays (=32 MGs / 22.4 - 44.8 DPS) and 3 Lasers...

Edited by Daggett, 26 January 2018 - 07:10 AM.

[MechanicalWraith]

Imagine that, the biggest, slowest mech in MWO spamming short-ranged DoT weapons, that'll be impossible to avoid...

For arguments sake let's build a theoretical MG-spam DWF-UV (as the only non-light mech with 8 hardpoint ballistic potential I considered this specific case thoroughly before making this proposal, the math was pretty easy).

Assuming the CT and Head components of a DWF-W, along with DWF-UV arms and DW-B STs, we're looking at exactly 41 free slots, 32 of which are immediately consumed by the MGAs themselves, filling in our 3 laser hardpoints with the largest weapons available (C-ERLLs, scary), we are left with exactly 6 slots for ammo in both arms and the right leg. Even 32 LMGs would not last long burning 6 tons of ammo (for just 22.4 DoT DPS within 250m), HMGs may present a high DPS figure but are atrociously ammo hungry and the DWF cannot use them effectively at 48.7kph - Even assault targets could reverse out of or outright avoid a 100m brawl.

In conclusion, even the most ballistic-heavy omni-mix-mech is too slot limited to use MG arrays as a competitive primary weapon, and Battlemechs (the ones with slots to spare, potentially) simply have too few hardpoints to make a primary weapon out of MGAs. Medium mechs with few ballistic hardpoints however do stand to gain from MGAs, giving them a secondary weapon where they had none, and raising them to a distinct battlefield role rather than being reduced to second-rate lag-shielding lights, or weak heavies.

[Khobai]

pretty much the worst idea ever

youre letting clans jam 4 machine guns into one ballistic hardpoint

and you somehow expect that to turn out well?


because we really need shadow cats with 15 machine guns running around. or huntsman with 16 machine guns. or whatever other clan medium gets obscene numbers of machine guns.

linebacker gets 12 machine guns. because linebackers really need the firepower of an assault in addition to the armor of a heavy and speed of a light.

because thats not broken at all...

machine gun arrays are really the last thing we need.

we could use mech rifles though. as a lightweight and longer range alternative to machine guns.

Edited by Khobai, 27 January 2018 - 02:30 AM.

[MechanicalWraith]

We don't need mech rifles, we have SRMs and MRMs (similar ranges, heat/dmg ratio, much better ammo ratios, not to mention probably equivalent projectile speeds to PGI's take on a pre-spaceflight gun technology).

Huntsman doesn't have the slots/hardpoints to out-machine-gun it's IS peers, nor does the Linebacker, granted the LBK is fast - but then IS mechs are tanky...

If it makes any difference to PGI, I wouldn't give a crap if they forget clan MGAs altogether. I've long since migrated over to IS mechs for the most part because clan stuff's just bad imo.

[GX9900 Gundam X]

you guys say clan this clan that, how the heck is that even relevant? this is a technology shared by both sides, a Blackjack can take just as many machineguns as a shadowcat (and lets not forget that the shadowcat is off meta anyways as anything else but a poptarter) and clan assaults and heavies dont need to take 12 machineguns with them anyways because they have smaller mechs to do that for them like the mist lynx, and pirahna. those mechs i just mentioned would not benefit much from an MGA anyways because they already have the hardpoints. and if you're still concerned, just make MGAs take the amount of machineguns it has plus one in terms of slots (so if mga implementation is 4, it would take 5 slots, maybe even add on an extra half ton)

All this does is enable mechs that didnt have the ability to use mgs before like the one ballistic point dragon to use them effectively because now you can actually have the damn things and do meaningful damage on mechs that only have a couple hardpoints. It would actually help the inner sphere more than the clans, especially if you consider that clans literally do not have the slots to accommodate these in the manner you guys are describing

Edited by GX9900 Gundam X, 29 January 2018 - 02:50 PM.

[Syn Pryde]

i`m grinning wildly from my piranha at that stupid idea

(because it will entirely sink gameplay.)

Edited by Syn Pryde, 29 January 2018 - 03:59 PM.

[BTGbullseye]

Syn Pryde, on 29 January 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

i`m grinning wildly from my piranha at that stupid idea

(because it will entirely sink gameplay.)

How so? Do you have the tonnage to spare, while still having ammo to fire the weapons? On a 20t mech?

[MechanicalWraith]

Like I said previously - if it was a make-or-break decision I'd tolerate clans not getting MGAs (or getting triple rather than quad arrays) purely on the basis that I don't play too many clan mechs (because I feel they're already weak). Ultimately though, the math says MGAs on both sides would at best be a decent secondary weapon on large mechs, and entirely unfeasible on the current MG spam-mechs like Piranhas and Mist Lynx. The stats I proposed - only 4 slots and a half-ton additional weight were to allow mechs with lower-arm actuators to employ two arrays in one arm, however increasing the array overhead by a single slot would be reasonable and serve to exacerbate the Omni-Mech's inherent slot restrictions.

[BTGbullseye]

Just to be clear, I'm 100% for this, for both factions.

[GX9900 Gundam X]

Syn Pryde, on 29 January 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

i`m grinning wildly from my piranha at that stupid idea

(because it will entirely sink gameplay.)

I kind of doubt you even have a piranha if you think that's going to "sink gameplay". It shows that you haven't really had much experience customizing smaller mechs if you honestly think this will enhance piranhas in any way.

Edited by GX9900 Gundam X, 31 January 2018 - 04:09 AM.

[Sir Immortal Shadow]

I say yes but increase the ton penalty otherwise mg arrays would make HMGs completely irrelevant. Although I am hoping they'll increase the damage and decrease the critical bonus on HMG's to alter their role a bit.
3 regular HMGs, 4.2 DPS, 3 tons, short range bad spread and crap ammo per ton.
1 MG array, 4 DPS, better weight range spread and ammo, all in exchange for one extra slot.
I say IS arrays should be in groups of 4 with a one ton penalty and 1/10 heat and Clans should be groups of three with a half ton penalty and 1/10th heat.
Also I want to point out yeah, most Pirhana's Can just take MGs normally, no benefit to arrays. But on others you could combine a single MG array with micro pulsers or heavy Small lasers.

Edited by Sir Immortal Shadow, 15 March 2018 - 07:36 AM.

[Sir Immortal Shadow]

GX9900 Gundam X, on 29 January 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

you guys say clan this clan that, how the heck is that even relevant? this is a technology shared by both sides... and clan assaults and heavies dont need to take 12 machineguns with them anyways because they have smaller mechs to do that for them like the mist lynx, and pirahna. those mechs i just mentioned would not benefit much from an MGA anyways because they already have the hardpoints

Heavier mechs would benefit because they are harder to keep cool, MGs have no heat gen and they have tonnage (but not hardpoints) to spare.
Clans would benefit because you could slap a (very light) MG array on top of whatever build you already have and they tend to suffer from heat problems.
Clan Laservomit with 8 MGs added. Yes please. Heavy medium lasers + MG arrays = wtf.

Edited by Sir Immortal Shadow, 15 March 2018 - 07:54 AM.

[JRcam4643]

MechanicalWraith, on 25 January 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

Ballistic weapons are sorely limited in MWO, while we may be resigned to never getting alternative ammunition types there's still hope for fresh new toys. MG-Arrays offer a new weapon that'll take next to no work to implement, yet fill a tonnage bracket no ballistic weapon currently does, and provide slow heavy mechs with a much needed yet subtle weapon to fight light mechs with.

Proposed weapons:

Each weapon would simply be a heavier, larger variant of the single MG, clustering four machine-guns into a single weapon that assumes the same slots as 4 single MGs, and 0.5 tons additional weight.

Inner Sphere Light Machine Gun Array - 2.5 tons, 4 slots.
Inner Sphere Machine Gun Array - 2.5 tons, 4 slots.
Inner Sphere Heavy Machine Gun Array 4.5 tons, 4 slots.

Clan Light Machine Gun Array - 1.5 tons, 4 slots.
Clan Machine Gun Array - 1.5 tons, 4 slots.
Clan Heavy Machine Gun Array - 2.5 tons, 4 slots.

Implementing these weapons requires no special work, merely cloning the existing MGs and altering a few stats would suffice while new models/particles/sounds are pending.

Models should be identical to existing MGs, but with duplicate barrels.

Particle FX are easier still, cloning and duplicating the existing VFX.

Sounds (SFX) are equally easy to achieve if deemed necessary (they're really not), a faint metallic echo applied to the existing MG sounds would perfectly reflect the rattle of slightly offset muzzle blasts.

GX9900 Gundam X, on 25 January 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

I think this would be a good idea. I have the Cicada that has ECM and a single ballistic hardpoint, and have been using it as a light gauss sniper. I always wanted to try running machineguns on it though, but cant because it only has one hardpoint. Similarily, on my Shadowcat, I wanted to use the ballistic hardpoint on the right arm for machineguns so I could use an ECM torso, but again, only one hardpoint. Having these machinegun arrays would open up new options for mechs with few or only a single ballistic hardpoint, or with hardpoints grouped together in weird areas (like for example, you have 5 ballistic hardpoints but they're spread out all over your mech as opposed to just being in the arms or in a single torso).

It would also let some Urbanmechs run 9-12 machineguns depending on if an Array contains 3 or 4 machineguns. Heheh.

Daggett, on 26 January 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

The problem i see with this that it has the potential of making many mechs OP especially on Clan side. Most clan mediums and heavies can field at least 4 of those arrays, some even more. That's 16+ MGs with enough ammo and in most cases additional weapons. No one wants to face that.

Imagine a DWF-UV with up to 8 MG-Arrays (=32 MGs / 22.4 - 44.8 DPS) and 3 Lasers...

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 02:20 AM, said:

pretty much the worst idea ever

youre letting clans jam 4 machine guns into one ballistic hardpoint

and you somehow expect that to turn out well?


because we really need shadow cats with 15 machine guns running around. or huntsman with 16 machine guns. or whatever other clan medium gets obscene numbers of machine guns.

linebacker gets 12 machine guns. because linebackers really need the firepower of an assault in addition to the armor of a heavy and speed of a light.

because thats not broken at all...

machine gun arrays are really the last thing we need.

we could use mech rifles though. as a lightweight and longer range alternative to machine guns.

Syn Pryde, on 29 January 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

i`m grinning wildly from my piranha at that stupid idea

(because it will entirely sink gameplay.)

BTGbullseye, on 30 January 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

Just to be clear, I'm 100% for this, for both factions.

Sir Immortal Shadow, on 15 March 2018 - 07:15 AM, said:

I say yes but increase the ton penalty otherwise mg arrays would make HMGs completely irrelevant. Although I am hoping they'll increase the damage and decrease the critical bonus on HMG's to alter their role a bit.
3 regular HMGs, 4.2 DPS, 3 tons, short range bad spread and crap ammo per ton.
1 MG array, 4 DPS, better weight range spread and ammo, all in exchange for one extra slot.
I say IS arrays should be in groups of 4 with a one ton penalty and 1/10 heat and Clans should be groups of three with a half ton penalty and 1/10th heat.
Also I want to point out yeah, most Pirhana's Can just take MGs normally, no benefit to arrays. But on others you could combine a single MG array with micro pulsers or heavy Small lasers.

You should all contact every one you know and oppose this idea. It would just be terrible for the game play. We don't want to make light mechs more annoying do we? This wouldn't help the current worst MG spamming lights much if at all but you are going to create so many more offenders. What if I told you there is a light currently not in mainstream use that would be able to mount 18 MGs, as much as 7 tons of ammo and move at 130 speed. And that's if you wanted to keep the ER medium. And yes you would start to see similar 16 mg load out on heavy and medium mechs. This is advertised as a good secondary weapon for assaults but in reality I think assaults would be the biggest loser. some one floated the idea that collision damage should be increased so light mechs won't be as fond of leg humping and that would have to be a requirement before implementing a MG change like this.

[MechanicalWraith]

JRcam4643, on 15 March 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

You should all contact every one you know and oppose this idea. It would just be terrible for the game play. We don't want to make light mechs more annoying do we? This wouldn't help the current worst MG spamming lights much if at all but you are going to create so many more offenders. What if I told you there is a light currently not in mainstream use that would be able to mount 18 MGs, as much as 7 tons of ammo and move at 130 speed. And that's if you wanted to keep the ER medium. And yes you would start to see similar 16 mg load out on heavy and medium mechs. This is advertised as a good secondary weapon for assaults but in reality I think assaults would be the biggest loser. some one floated the idea that collision damage should be increased so light mechs won't be as fond of leg humping and that would have to be a requirement before implementing a MG change like this.

Firstly, I assume you're talking about the Jenner IIC hero 'Fury' fielding 18 MGs while running 130kph? plenty of ammo and low armor? (such as armor is with clan-super-sized hitboxes) - that sounds like a pretty fun 4-second kill to any of my mechs medium or heavier.

Secondly, I was the one (or one of the ones) to suggest increasing collision damage (x1000 or so) to deal with light mechs facehugging - that'll help with some of the problem but we still need a cool weapon for larger mechs to retaliate at the 5-200m range bracket where one presently requires an overly specialized streak-boat to make a dent in light mech harrassers.

Thirdly, the worst thing that could happen with MGAs is that everybody starts (over)using them, and MGs as a whole get rebalanced, thus fixing the issue with the current special few spammers reigning supreme. More optimistically, heavier mechs get a nice secondary (or tertiary) weapon system that can actually be used alongside hot weapons, and light mechs get nudged ever-so-slightly out of the realm of rage-quit-inducing trolls and into the role of scouting and strategic harassment.

Fourthly, although I remain confident in my calculations that no existing MG-spam light can benefit from using +1/2 ton arrays (better to pack a few lasers and melt armor), nobody said MGAs can't have their tonnage overhead increased to a full ton...

Edited by MechanicalWraith, 16 March 2018 - 01:02 AM.

[TheoLu]

Nobody said the modules couldn't be limited in physical size to larger mechs or certain chassis/arm or torso units either. They're 'arrays', after all. As arrays they come with a specific shape and size impediment.

Think MLX-G; the machineguns 'wrap' around that mech's arms/hands. A machinegun array wouldn't really work there unless it altogether replaced the 'hand' instead, causing it to lose its energy hardpoint on either.

More granularity in what modules are usable on which mechs would be great, but then we'd also need a drastically reworked shop and mechlab so people could actually get a proper idea of just what is and isn't available for whichever mechs and/or omnipods they might choose to go with.

Spending copious amounts of c-bills right now only to find a mech you were hoping would be able to field X only to find it can't is immensely frustrating.

[MechanicalWraith]

MGAs' geometry actually shouldn't make their bounds* any larger than MGs bounds already are - making them larger would potentially mess with the visuals of mechs that haven't had provisions made for large weapon geometry (on account of them not being able to ever mount them before due to tonnage or slot restrictions), and if you look at clan MGs, they're already a great big box with a tiny barrel protruding from one side, leaving plenty of room to add more barrels whilst improving the space usage visually.

Clan MGAs can simply be given +2-to-3 barrels alongside the existing barrel seated in the same rectangular 'receiver'.

IS MGAs can be given +3 barrels grouped 2x2 around the current single barrel location, perhaps a basic shroud surrounding the barrels to bulk them up on certain mechs that have huge 'receiver' meshes for MGs already - example: the KGC Kaiju's torso ballistic mounts.

There's really no reason whatsoever to think that MGAs need special treatment or restrictions on a physical size basis.

Edited by MechanicalWraith, 18 March 2018 - 11:38 PM.

[BTGbullseye]

That's 78% of poll respondents that say yes, and 19% that say no.