374 replies to this topic

[JediPanther]

Mech The Dane, on 28 January 2018 - 07:26 AM, said:

Russ has responded on Twitter.

Always odd to think how much they shirk their own forums.

Good to know they will talk about it. That typed with much unseen sarcasm. It's only when the forum is raging in community raised hades level poo poo storms combined with lots of pre order cancels do we see action from pgi in a hurry about some thing.

Mini map,long tom, $500 per gold mech skin,cool shot, 3pv,re-scale etc. Ever wonder what russ would do without his twitter safe space?

I agree with most of the points raised in the video. Having been in a once-active cw unit that had near 100 members, seen the unit disband due to cw phrase 2-3, then reform to a mere 12 active members including myself sucks. Cw has so many problems I won't even try listing them.

The sad part is mwo at its bare bones core game play can be very fun and exciting yet pgi just dumps on it all the bad implementation of their version of a thing often without any lengthy pts or using the pts to actually use feedback. Energy draw being the rarest exception to which many are glad it was scraped. They just change crap according to their 'metric' or 'internal testing' or whatever fancy term they can think of to use.

While one or two devs might play in qp using their official pgi id it often makes the match regardless of game mode turn into protect the (real) vip or kill the vip pgi marked player. You look at end game screen and see how terrible the pgi dev did kill and damage wise compared to the rest of the lance/team and just wonder if they are playing for the sake of it or if it was mandatory for some reason.

Often the dev is wrongly presumed to be one of department x by the other players but still get raged at for some thing they probably have nothing to do with work wise. It's no wonder we rarely if ever see them in their official id playing the game.

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 26 January 2018 - 09:07 PM, said:

Biased comparison IMO. Even though your HPPCs have 70% hit rate--which is actually better than average--those hits front load all the damage onto the same section of the enemy mech. Meanwhile your 90% accurate HLLs will be spreading all the damages onto multiple sections due to its long *** duration.

So apples and oranges.

That hasn't actually mattered since the time when we got an influx of lasers (or quirked lasers) that could be combined to create significantly larger alphas than what you could achieve with PPCs alone or Gauss PPCs. while also skirting around ghost heat but with relatively similar ranges.

For as much as a full hit with all damage in spot is valuable, a full miss getting zero damage is equally as punishing.

The same is not true of mass boating lasers, where you can correct and still get heaps of damage on target - as they are hitscan you have to be drunk to totally miss a target and while all the damage may not have gone where you wanted, it's still damage, it still accrues, it still counts.

The balance point, since clans where released, tended to be based around duration & heat gen of your laser boat vs. the velocity & CD times of Gauss+PPCs. Obviously mech choice played a big part, due to the heat sinks required for lasers.

Edited by Ultimax, 28 January 2018 - 04:58 PM.

[Ultimax]

Dane's video was spot on.

He managed to bring me out of my abandonment of this game to post here and on HPG, and also tweet @Russ.

It's been a long, slow, painful slide.

And for every person I was in an internet argument with while I was in on these forums where I was against all the bad ideas like pure volumetric scaling, engine de-synch, weapon nerfs & mech nerfs - I told you so.

[Jarl Dane]

Kin3ticX, on 28 January 2018 - 05:56 AM, said:

Lol I tried to send dane a PM to ask which TS he hangs and it says "Mech the Dane cannot recieve any more messages"

Inbox = rekt

Made some room!

NRP, on 28 January 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

The video raised some good points, but I admit I found it quite sophmorish. I would imagine it would be easy for PGI to dismiss the points raised due to the presentation, which is unfortunate.

Hey man, that's just.. my style of presentation. If you can do better than go for it. I don't care who convinces them, i just want the game to get better.

Jiang Wei, on 28 January 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

Okay you got me, I do have an idea of what he wants. But I cant reveal my main account. Sorry.

cra·ven

ˈkrāvən/

adjective

1. contemptibly lacking in courage; cowardly.

"a craven abdication of his moral duty"

cowardly,
lily-livered,
faint-hearted,
chicken-hearted,
spineless,
timid,
timorous,
fearful,
pusillanimous,
weak,
feeble...

Sunstruck, on 28 January 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

The funny thing is everyone that plays the game regularly knows all the points Dane made in his video, and Dane didn't even touch the catastrophy that is Faction Warfare right now, now you want to talk about taking the fun out of the game. There literally is no reason to actually choose one Inner Sphere house over another.

I don't know, I hope Solaris actually turns out halfway decent. Solaris is pretty cool in the books, TT and MW4.

Yeah, sorry. I've made videos on IS/Clan balance and Faction Play before. I wish it could work, I've fought for it to work, but at this point I'd just settle for diverse play styles and a fun base game again.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 28 January 2018 - 05:20 PM.

[Jiang Wei]

Im not craven. I have a good reason. There is a deep dark secret no one can ever know....

Edited by Jiang Wei, 28 January 2018 - 05:23 PM.

[Leone]

Mech The Dane, on 26 January 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

Is there anyone who likes it?

I do. I mean, it's weird. Usually I dislike the escort modes in games. I know I did in previous Mechwarrior titles. That said in this one, I enjoy it. It's nice to actually have one mode in quickplay that'll get my team to actually move and coordinate.

I mean, they don't always, but for me, Escort's been better'n other modes for quickplay. Which, to be fair, I don't do much.

El Bandito, on 26 January 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

Community wanted rescale, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted engine desync, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted new skill tree, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted info warfare, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted power draw, just not the way PGI had implemented.

See a pattern here?

Not to mention letting the players vote on trial builds? Yeah, that really helped.

Imperius, on 28 January 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

I talked with Chris during the MechCon and after I walked away I knew I was not touching Mechwarrior Online again.

Okay, sure, fine. One question... Why are you still here? Actually curious by the way, not trying to troll you. But if you've already walked, why didn't you get far?

~Leone.

[sycocys]

Escort mode isn't awesome, but most of that is due to them for some ridiculous reason choosing one of the largest mechs to drag around instead of something more manageable for the defending team.

If it had been an MFB with a few trucks it not only would have made more sense in terms of what's going on in the game (ie could be used as a mission with a purpose in FP), but its a few targets that are a size that are actually defend-able.

Don't hate the mode, but it unfortunately ended up being like most of PGI's efforts and thought out about 1/4 of the way then jammed into the game without any testing.

[Terrorsdawn]

Thanks for the video Dane. Made me smile and think. I couldn't ask for more.

To the people that say this game is to far into it's life cycle to make any changes, I disagree with them. There are a large number of people that are taking a break waiting ........ hoping ......... some even praying, that PGI will at some point start listening and make MWO what it could be. If the numbers were so bad they would have pulled the plug and walked away. So even when there is a large number of people keeping their wallets closed waiting for change, they are still getting enough cash flow to keep the lights on and make Mercs 5.

I want to throw money back into this game I just can't till I see something more then just another mech pack. I want something to do with the mech pack. I hope Solaris gives me that reason, but I admit I'm not holding my breath either.

I've said it before MWO = Most Wasted Opportunities.

So many good threads have been on this forum, it's truly sad that PGI just doesn't seem to understand what people are asking for.

The clock is ticking perhaps but I feel there is time to turn things around and deliver more then what we have.

[Alteran]

Logged in to respond Dane, you're bang on!

I might not agree completely with the Clan / IS balance, as I believe it should have been balanced out using pure numbers 3:1 ratio's, but aside from that the game is stale, boring and done. Nerfs and balance passes made without real thought just killed it more.

I have always focused on the CW portion of this game and without the depth that I've posted about for years... I'm done. As far as I'm concerned, I personally believe that the player base was sold an all exclusive vacation package and when we got there, it was a kiddie pool with a tent inside a garbage dump.

Peace out PGI.

[Cruxs]

Jiang Wei, on 28 January 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

Im not craven. I have a good reason. There is a deep dark secret no one can ever know....

Yes a deep dark video game forum secret, that would up root the world and destroy your life if people found out about your other video game name. Most likely massive potato who doesn't want to be discounted in a video game forum because... potato.

Craven sounds about right. lol

[Sigmar Sich]

Mech The Dane, on 26 January 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

Skill-Tree

Here is preamble under the spoiler:

Spoiler

Sigmar Sich, on 28 January 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

I have a feeling, this is our last chance to do something about the game. Community have momentum now, lets not waste it.
We can observe how PGI tries to fix things, if at all; but we also can try to help them. Not very fruitful effort, from our past experience, but maybe this time it will work, especially if community provides good quality feedback.

It would be great if you guys organise some community-driven roundtables, about current game problems. In orderly manner, topic by topic, without creating a mess. CW, game modes, balance, consumables, etc. Then filtered feedback could be sent to PGI, it is now proven (again) community can get their attention.
Just make sure you choose right guys to represent all aspects of the game, without bias.

Also, about skill tree rework. I will try to design one, i have some ideas and examples, and 10 years of experience in game development industry, mostly gamedesign. But i will need your help, guys, to provide feedback and discussion. And if we all will be satisfied with results, maybe it could serve as reference to PGI.
First of all, i need you to reach consensus about different skills hierarchy. What is more important, Range nodes, Cooldown, Heat-gen, etc. In every department.
Thank you.

P.S. I honestly believe we can do it. Last stand.

Sorry for not using Feature suggestions forum, but that is just an echo chamber, waste of time.

So while discussion is hot, i came up with this sketch:



note: Structure and Armour bonuses are decreased for higher weight classes, same as now, but probably to a lesser degree.


note: agility skill increased for higher weight classes. Especially JJ


note: sensor skills are increased for lower weight classes.



Short explanation:
Each branch of skill three have three tiers (from bottom to top). Each skill have 1-4 nodes (not shown in pictures, but it would be like "Cooldown 0/4"). To invest into nodes on next tier, you have to invest X points into previous tier (usually not much, like one full skill, 3-4 points). This way it is much easier to take nodes you want, but also still requires some investment to take most desirable skills. (note - tier3 meant not only for most desirable skills, but also for standalone/side grade skills, which would be unfair to put into overall progression).

Blue colour - new skills.
- Enhanced CASE - for IS, makes CASE in Side torso protect this torso from ammo explosion in arm. Clans already have super CASE, so they do not need this.
- AMS range and ammo are self-explanatory (ammo node also provides heat reduction for LAMS). If weapons have different skills, AMS deserves them too. Besides, survival tree would be too small without it.
- Arm angles are sort of old skill Arm reflexes. Improves how far you can turn your arms.
- Enhanced BAP - improves range to detect shut down mechs or target ECM
- Enhanced TAG - maybe improves range, and speed up target info gathering.
Just examples.

Workplan:
1. Develop desired form for skill tree. Hopefully, done.
2. Set skills into correct order by tiers;
3. Rework some skills (bloody consumables...)
4. Balance maximum gained skill bonus;
5. Split skills into "nodes" (means how many points you can invest in each skill);
6. If community is satisfied with result, show it to PGI as reference.

Each step requires feedback and discussion.

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 28 January 2018 - 11:22 PM.

[chucklesMuch]

Dearest PGI, please consider the points in Dane's video... more fun please!

Edited by chucklesMuch, 28 January 2018 - 09:16 PM.

[Jarl Dane]

Sigmar Sich, on 28 January 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

....

I'll have Tarogato look at this when he wakes up. You put some time into your ideas and he'll be able to address them.

I broached the subject of Skill Tree tiers with him earlier though, and his initial fear was that it would add more complexity, Although we didn't really get to deep into it. I think at the moment what you're suggesting might be outside the scope of what he is hoping to put before PGI.

As I state in my video I want a Skill Tree re-work. A consolidation of nodes and a way to break the skill tree meta, something I think you're trying to do here.. but I fear its the sort of back end thing that PGI just will not be willing to do. However, I'll leave it to Tarogato to respond in full.

[Kin3ticX]

Mech The Dane, on 28 January 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

I'll have Tarogato look at this when he wakes up. You put some time into your ideas and he'll be able to address them.

I broached the subject of Skill Tree tiers with him earlier though, and his initial fear was that it would add more complexity, Although we didn't really get to deep into it. I think at the moment what you're suggesting might be outside the scope of what he is hoping to put before PGI.

As I state in my video I want a Skill Tree re-work. A consolidation of nodes and a way to break the skill tree meta, something I think you're trying to do here.. but I fear its the sort of back end thing that PGI just will not be willing to do. However, I'll leave it to Tarogato to respond in full.

I dunno, I think the skill tree is more about gating than it is overall balance. Only just recently have they done something clan specific. Before that the only other thing i know of thats special is the different survival intensity for each class.

I don't think they tweaked it much at all the patch after it came out. Seems like they wanted to finish it, wipe their hands clean, and leave it alone for a long time. With that in mind, trying to make different tree %s or extra pts based on mech strength would mean tons of maintenance.

So the 2% clan weapon heat gen nerf is a bit of a departure from the last 9 months of skill tree.

[Sigmar Sich]

Mech The Dane, on 28 January 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

I'll have Tarogato look at this when he wakes up. You put some time into your ideas and he'll be able to address them.

Thank you both for your time.

Here's how it supposed to look:

At first, only tier1 is availeble. (idea behind this progression - some skills will be more desireble than others, however you design skill tree. So need to invest at least something to lower tiers is to avoid ability to cherry-pick all desired skills, creating some sort of trade-offs).
To unlock skills in tier 2 i have to invest 4 points in tier 1. At any combination, it just have to be total of 4 or more points invested. So i can put two nodes into velocity, for 50% of skill benefit, and two others into missile ammo. Or i can put 4 points into heat gen. Or i can invest 4-12 points, if i desire.
After meeting minimum requirement, next tier opens. And so on.

Why is it better than current skill tree?
1. It is easier to read, when you don't need to search for needed node and path to it. You have yours, lets say cooldown skill, in one place, and you choose how much points you want to invest into it, without traveling this honeycomb maze.
2. It is more open to choose combination of skills you desire. You no longer bound by branching maze-path. Yet still you have some restrictions, to forbid absolutely free cherry-picking.
3. It effectively cuts down the number of nodes. In current branching maze you cannot do this, because of over-shortening or over-streamlining branch path between bottom and top nodes.

About breaking meta. We had no meta in old skill tree, because it was linear, and had no choices.
Current skill tree is poorly balanced, as you stated in your video, and some departments give you much better improvements for your investments.
At the same time, we cannot really abandon % system, it would require individual calculation and balancing for each mech. Which is ineffective waste of development time even by my standards, and i'm not lazy worker.

So how we make % system work?
I think the answer is really simple - same way as Survival tree now works for weight classes, when lighter mechs with smaller base parameter, get bigger % bonuses.
Same way it can be done for mobility, with increased % for heavier classes.
Also sensors can be scaled this way too, to provide light mech with option to scout, not only to fight. I think it is better implementation than info-warfare was.

P.S. While you have attention both from PGI and community, it is great moment for you to organise some community roundtables, or commandeer someone to do so. I'm afraid it is game's last chance. It will not recower if PGI do nothing, or do something else than community want. Which is a trend, sadly.

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 28 January 2018 - 10:47 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mech The Dane, on 28 January 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

I'll have Tarogato look at this when he wakes up. You put some time into your ideas and he'll be able to address them.

I broached the subject of Skill Tree tiers with him earlier though, and his initial fear was that it would add more complexity, Although we didn't really get to deep into it. I think at the moment what you're suggesting might be outside the scope of what he is hoping to put before PGI.

As I state in my video I want a Skill Tree re-work. A consolidation of nodes and a way to break the skill tree meta, something I think you're trying to do here.. but I fear its the sort of back end thing that PGI just will not be willing to do. However, I'll leave it to Tarogato to respond in full.

TBQH, you can't break the Skill Tree meta as long as the skill tree provides flat upgrades to any particular characteristic. Which, incidentally, also harms the new player experience.

You need a Perk/Drawback system.

[Deathlike]

Despite Russ getting enough tweeting in his ears - unless he actually does something unlike the last CW/FP roundtable, we will continued to be mired in mediocrity.

Set reasonable expectations, and then expect PGI to underdeliver... and not within 60 to 90 days.

Then it's hard to be disappointed... you know the result to be "realistically honest".

[Vellron2005]

Well, you can't overstate just how stale the gameplay is...

Right now, this game revolves around "the next mech pack".. and it can be so much more..

What needs to be done?

Well, the ideas are many.. so here's a few of my own:

1) Make a meaningful FP/CW game mode.. make the planets count for something, make the factions distinctive instead of just giving the new ones absurd financial bonuses that make year-long loyalist say "flack this, the money is a lot better if I go merc"

2) Make a balancing pass, playtest it, community test it, and then STOP CHANGING THINGS! Constant buffs/nerfs/fidgeting with balance does not mean you guys are "keeping development active".. it means you're fixing what ain't broken for the sake of appearances.

3) Make the game equally enjoyable in all aspects, regardless if the player is in a big unit or not. Right now, it's seal clubbing galore, toxicity, and it's driving players away.

4) Pay more attention to quality - stop embarrassing yourself by releasing mechs with broken animations, broken hitboxes, being late on announcements, broken events, and non-existent communication with the player base.

5) Start communicating with he player base.. That means roadmaps, vlogs, townhalls, posts, general in-game presence, and customer care.. here's an example how the big boys are doing it. You all know Cris Roberts, CEO of Roberts space industries, the makers of Star Citizen, right? Well, that game is still in alpha, and there's a bug that prevents your launcher from running the game.. I have that bug.. So I just happen to come across a fun in-game clip on 9gag, and I post a question about the bug below it.. and lo and behold.. somebody answers me "We are working on patches, it will be fixed". Guess who messaged me? Cris bloody Roberts himself. On 9gag. 9GAG. The CEO. The BIG Cahnuna! 9GAG. That's some customer care right there! (And you can't tell me it's cose' they have more money)

6) For God's sake.. make MAPS.. like 25 new maps are needed at the minimum. (Since y'all' don't wanna make procedurally generated random maps) The game is stale A.F. So tired of the same scenery all the time. And no, Rubellite is not the way to go. Extremely hot or cold maps should be the exception, not the norm.. Most planets worth fighting for are temperate earth-like worlds. So stop making brawler junkyards.

7) Make a better decal system. The current one is just ridiculously basic and ineffective.

Edited by Vellron2005, 29 January 2018 - 12:14 AM.

[General Solo]

I disagree with the OP

About Skill tree
I like the skill tree, much better than the old one, it lets you tune skills with a fine touch. Forces players to own their choices.
If team mates mechs are not ready, tell them don't join the group, kick them
But why change the skill tree.

About Engine Desync
Locusts - Deserve death and have a functioning lag shield, which whilst not commando grade is still preeddy guid. Ping
Desync stopped every man and his dog from grabbing an assault and scooting around like over size heavy mechs.
Increased piloting skill need for assaults. I agree with this choice

About Weapons Nerfs
Dunno about you guys but I'm seeing alot of variety in the weapons fielded, its not just laser vomit.

[Kin3ticX]

Vellron2005, on 29 January 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

Well, you can't overstate just how stale the gameplay is...

Right now, this game revolves around "the next mech pack".. and it can be so much more..

What needs to be done?

Well, the ideas are many.. so here's a few of my own:

1) Make a meaningful FP/CW game mode.. make the planets count for something, make the factions distinctive instead of just giving the new ones absurd financial bonuses that make year-long loyalist say "flack this, the money is a lot better if I go merc"

2) Make a balancing pass, playtest it, community test it, and then STOP CHANGING THINGS! Constant buffs/nerfs/fidgeting with balance does not mean you guys are "keeping development active".. it means you're fixing what ain't broken for the sake of appearances.

3) Make the game equally enjoyable in all aspects, regardless if the player is in a big unit or not. Right now, it's seal clubbing galore, toxicity, and it's driving players away.

4) Pay more attention to quality - stop embarrassing yourself by releasing mechs with broken animations, broken hitboxes, being late on announcements, broken events, and non-existent communication with the player base.

5) Start communicating with he player base.. That means roadmaps, vlogs, townhalls, posts, general in-game presence, and customer care.. here's an example how the big boys are doing it. You all know Cris Roberts, CEO of Roberts space industries, the makers of Star Citizen, right? Well, that game is still in alpha, and there's a bug that prevents your launcher from running the game.. I have that bug.. So I just happen to come across a fun in-game clip on 9gag, and I post a question about the bug below it.. and lo and behold.. somebody answers me "We are working on patches, it will be fixed". Guess who messaged me? Cris bloody Roberts himself. On 9gag. 9GAG. The CEO. The BIG Cahnuna! 9GAG. That's some customer care right there! (And you can't tell me it's cose' they have more money)

6) For God's sake.. make MAPS.. like 25 new maps are needed at the minimum. (Since y'all' don't wanna make procedurally generated random maps) The game is stale A.F. So tired of the same scenery all the time. And no, Rubellite is not the way to go. Extremely hot or cold maps should be the exception, not the norm.. Most planets worth fighting for are temperate earth-like worlds. So stop making brawler junkyards.

7) Make a better decal system. The current one is just ridiculously basic and ineffective.

If the mode was fun you wouln't see people typing, "make planets mean something" over and over and over and over and over.

Phase 3 and 4 ended any chance of factions meaning something, so we would need a windows system restore back to phase 2 or to start over from scratch. Looks pretty bleak and we shouldnt get distracted with FP. If thats your main mode im sorry.