87 replies to this topic

[Spare Parts Bin]

I use CAC-2s and LBX-2s vs CAC-2s. The reason is jams, they always seem to happen when I need them most. Am I wrong in my thinking, if so why?

[Koniving]

Some might say you're wrong in this thinking, but...

While the CAC/2 and LBX/2 take 1 more slot than a CUAC/2, the trade off is you get 90 meters additional effective range, 180 meters extra max range [don't use guns at max range], 0.2 less heat, and a much cooler sound effect for firing.

Range quirks enhance this quite a bit further than UAC/2, too.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Koniving, on 29 January 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

Some might say you're wrong in this thinking, but...

While the CAC/2 and LBX/2 take 1 more slot than a CUAC/2, the trade off is you get 90 meters additional effective range, 180 meters extra max range [don't use guns at max range], 0.2 less heat, and a much cooler sound effect for firing.

Range quirks enhance this quite a bit further than UAC/2, too.

What you say about max range is true, I only violate this on Frozen City where AC-2s and ERPPCs are great for suppressing fire.

[Leone]

I actually concur with you on this one.

~Leone.

[Koniving]

Spare Parts Bin, on 29 January 2018 - 07:11 AM, said:

What you say about max range is true, I only violate this on Frozen City where AC-2s and ERPPCs are great for suppressing fire.

Indeed. At the stated max range (which is 'usually' twice as the optimum stated range), it will do exactly 0 damage. At 1.5x the range, it'll do half damage.

Interestingly, IS LBX goes out to 3x range. So in a Rifleman build with 4 LBX2, I'm hitting 939 meters after quirks and at 2x range I'm doing half damage instead of zero. This combined with all LBXs doing double crit damage (2 per pellet instead of 1) and the 15% crit damage as bonus structure damage, makes for some pretty fast kills.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

UAC2s for burst, AC2s for sustain, LBX2s for mostly nothing.

[justcallme A S H]

LBX2 - Never
cAC2 - Almost never
cUAC2 - Always.

cUAC2 when boated are excellent because when one or more inevitably jam in the first second or two you can keep firing and maintain reasonable DPS. cACs in MWO are garbage and should realistically, never be used.

If you don't want jams - Just don't "double tap". Although they will jam sometimes (bug issue) - it works fine for the most part and when you do double-tap, your DPS goes through the roof.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

justcallme A S H, on 29 January 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

LBX2 - Never
cAC2 - Almost never
cUAC2 - Always.

cUAC2 when boated are excellent because when one or more inevitably jam in the first second or two you can keep firing and maintain reasonable DPS. cACs in MWO are garbage and should realistically, never be used.

If you don't want jams - Just don't "double tap". Although they will jam sometimes (bug issue) - it works fine for the most part and when you do double-tap, your DPS goes through the roof.

Doing the math shows that the CUAC2 when doubletapping with the jam duration reductions only really give you about 8% more DPS than a normal AC2 while generating about 45% more heat. It is true that UAC2s are the best for just putting out burst damage, but if you need more sustainable damage the AC2 is flatly superior. Also token insignificant range bonus on AC2 compared to UAC2

But with LBX there's really no reason to use it, yeah.

[The6thMessenger]

On paper the bonuses look fine, but in practice the CAC2 has overkill range and heat reduction, that sacrifices the double-tap ability which in turn increases the much needed DPS.

[Wind of Horror]

Proton said flatout CUAC2 is better than CAC2 because of the burst. I'm going to trust a world champion with 450 average score over two T1 Founders who can't even break 300, and two who can't break 200. Sorry. I see why they call this the brown sea now, full of people who don't what their talking about giving bad advice.

Edited by Wind of Horror, 30 January 2018 - 11:59 PM.

[BTGbullseye]

Wind of Horror, on 30 January 2018 - 11:51 PM, said:

Proton said flatout CUAC2 is better than CAC2 because of the burst. I'm going to trust a world champion with 450 average score over two T1 Founders who can't even break 300, and two who can't break 200.

So what about me, with an average of over 300 in both seasons I actually played in? (this season it was prior to the SRM only event, which I had to retool and drive 2 mechs that I'd never driven before, so that dropped my average quite a bit)

LBX2 for Clan is mediocre, and effectively on-par with AC2 for technical purposes. (if you don't have **** aim, you can deal the same average damage to a single component at the weapon's effective ranges) Don't underestimate the crit damage bonuses that you get once you're through the armor with the LBX though. (it can really save your bacon by critting out the enemy weapons, leaving them as a non-combatant; just as effective as killing them, even without them dying)

I would put the LBX above the AC2 by quite a bit, but below the UAC2 only if you're needing the high burst damage and get used to the way the weapon and jamming works. Take your builds into the Academy, and run around getting used to the feel of them. Then take them to the testing grounds, to get a feel for how they work on the other maps. Then test them in Quick Play. Don't just build and take them straight to a match, as that's a good way to hurt your score, and hinder your team.

I may not be "super-ultra l33t" and run around setting the "meta", but I do know how to make a mech work for most people.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 31 January 2018 - 01:02 AM.

[Spare Parts Bin]

I hate Clan and IS UAC-2s. They jam when I need them most. I love LBX-2 ACs, they seem to work for me teamed with an ERLL or ERPPC. Look I respect the opinions expressed here. The CAC-2 maybe crap but I will use it over a CUAC-2 any day ending in y.

[Koniving]

What people say about LBx is really just regurgitated....

I will finish this post later today. Babysitting 3 kids
Wife apparently put in the last line and then turned on paw patrol.

But yes. What people say about LBx is really just regurgitated hogwash. For example, we all know balls are round.
However, we know this primarily because we are told such.

Now for those regurgitating the same swill time and time again, this is a ball.

And this is what round looks like.



So, you can either believe them or question why they think that is a ball, or why those are "round" shapes.

For example... In my left hand is an LBX-20. In my right is a UAC/20.
The left hand fires a SINGLE PROJECTILE.
The right hand fires several bullets.

Why is that?
Note this is with no skill tree. And at a time when LBX spread reducing modules cost 6,500,000 and Nobody used them.


The reason why the ignorance is so rampantly wide spread (in addition to "LBX is bad 'cause cool kids said so.") is that LBX in 2013 had a total of 45 different spread patterns, and each mech had access to no more than 5 of these patterns. The idea behind them is to add variety and the illusion of randomness. This is akin to how SRMs have several dozen spread patterns but each mech only has access to a modest number of them.

This means that some mechs could have access to really good patterns... and some mechs could have the short of the straw. As it happens, some of the most popular meta mechs had the worst patterns of all, which sometimes had almost no pellets that actually went straight. Thus creating the "This stuff is bad 'cause I seen its bad" issue. Yeah, it was bad for THAT mech. Or this mech. Or maybe that other mech. Meanwhile less popular mechs did really well with them and benefited as such. Of course a lot of them are in between the two extremes so there's various degrees of 'okay' and 'meh' too.

The Legend Killer is among the "holy crap", as spread doesn't really even start until 800 meters in most cases, and it typically spreads vertically, not horizontally with LBX-2. Which means if you hit a center torso and was aiming at the chest, it'll hit the head-section of the CT and the gut. If you were aiming at the gut it would hit the pelvis and the chest. So the spread... doesn't even matter. It only seems to have three spread patterns, and they really don't spread much.

The key with LBX is experimentation; which mechs get the good end and which get the raw end. Especially since LBX does double crit damage. 2 damage per pellet instead of just 1. 15% of all crits go to structure damage as an added bonus, too (which each pellet can thusly crit to 6 damage and as such while an AC/20 can do a maximum of 29 damage with a 3% chance of actually achieving it and less than 50% chance of getting extra damage, the LBX-20 has a maximum possible 38 damage with over 15% chance of actually doing it and easily having over 60% chance of getting extra damage). Sure, that might get spread depending on which straw you pull, but I can't argue with the results I get. I've begun replacing most of my AC/2s whenever possible as a result.

Edited by Koniving, 31 January 2018 - 01:34 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Well that video showed noting of value? Just that you can't aim a UAC.

And you also fail to mention that LBX crits do not apply when you are shooting armour. The armour must be stripped first before the crits are applied to structure. Given most mechs have far less structure than armour, this is yet another factor you are not highlighting.

What you are saying about LBX2 being better than UAC2 is flat out incorrect.

[Spare Parts Bin]

I know that I am not insane. My mom had me tested. I am depraved, I will use a pair of CUAC-5s if I pair them with CLBX-2s. When the CUACs jam I should be in CLPL,Hvy ML,and SRM-4 ranges.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 31 January 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

I will finish this post later today. Babysitting 3 kids
Wife apparently put in the last line and then turned on paw patrol.

Heh, kid-crack.... And yes, my two year old daughter loves that show... at least my 4 year old (almost 5 now ) has out grown it.

Anyways for what you are saying about the LB series while true, my dislike of them is due to the lack of their dual ammo types and how MWO treats kill efficient weapons in terms of actual crit damage vs. Crit seekers. Nine times out of ten I will take a normal AC or UAC over a LB series, just because I prefer to finish my target quickly and move on.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Metus regem, on 01 February 2018 - 08:16 AM, said:

Heh, kid-crack.... And yes, my two year old daughter loves that show... at least my 4 year old (almost 5 now ) has out grown it.

Anyways for what you are saying about the LB series while true, my dislike of them is due to the lack of their dual ammo types and how MWO treats kill efficient weapons in terms of actual crit damage vs. Crit seekers. Nine times out of ten I will take a normal AC or UAC over a LB series, just because I prefer to finish my target quickly and move on.

CUAC-5X(2)+(2)CLBX-2 +(2) HVY MLs+(2) CSRM-6+(2) CERMLs(2),worked real good on Direwolf UV today.

Edited by Spare Parts Bin, 01 February 2018 - 01:59 PM.

[Metus regem]

Spare Parts Bin, on 01 February 2018 - 01:58 PM, said:

CUAC-5X(2)+(2)CLBX-2 +(2) HVY MLs+(2) CSRM-6+(2) CERMLs(2),worked real good on Direwolf UV today.

This is my DWF-B she is an efficient killer. Yes I know she is 3t under weight, but she gets 3 to 4 KMDD a drop...

[Koniving]

justcallme A S H, on 31 January 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

Well that video showed noting of value? Just that you can't aim a UAC.

And you also fail to mention that LBX crits do not apply when you are shooting armour. The armour must be stripped first before the crits are applied to structure. Given most mechs have far less structure than armour, this is yet another factor you are not highlighting.

What you are saying about LBX2 being better than UAC2 is flat out incorrect.

One, I was not only aiming a UAC/20 (with the HUD off) and hit EXCLUSIVELY the target's center torso with both a 5 shot UAC and a LBX-20. (Yes some of the bullets missed as I used them to calibrate my aim so I didn't waste my LBX shots). I'd like to see how you aim yours while the HUD is off.
Anyway CT only. Nothing else. As stated by the recipient of all the damage.
It also showed that the LBX 20 up to over 200 meters acts as a single bullet before it even starts to spread. Showcasing that if people pull their heads from under the rocks they shelter in,they might see how good some of the "bad" weapon systems really can be.
It is also worth noting that if you test multiple mechs with an LBX, the weapon performs very differently for many mechs, so some will do better than others even without skill tree or quirks.

Edit: Battery is dying on wireless keyboard; several letters were missing.

Far as better, it relatively depends. UAC/2 is
1) hotter over time. Significantly so.
2) has significantly shorter range [IS; only slightly shorter range for Clans],
3) prone to jamming sometimes on the very first shot you fire leaving you with excessive downtime.
4) requires more tons of ammo as you will burn through it faster with great wasted fire potential on misses from shooting too fast while not correcting aim quickly enough.
5) A UAC/2's damage against armor is 2. Its damage against structure is 2 to 2.9 damage with less than 50% chance per trigger pull. An LBx-2's damage against armor is 2 damage. Its damage against structure is 2 to 3.8 damage per trigger pull with over 75% chance of at least some bonus damage (when you combine all the percentages and such). This isn't even getting into how it does double equipment damage. When comparing UAC/2 damage over time to LBX-2 damage over time and factoring jams, the two rival each other reasonably well with the LBX2 just above the jedi curve of the UAC/2 and ac/2. Before even factoring the major range difference.

Ultimately what they excel at depends on what you are using them for.
Ultra/2s are good for suppression and burst damage. They are also good for brawling as their jam time will give you precious seconds of forced cooling which can mean the difference between life and death.

LBX-2s are good for long range harassment and softening targets, finishing off targets at virtually any range (as it does good damage in the given case of the Legend Killer out to 1878 meters, and beyond that the damage dropoff makes it not worth the ammo). (Note: Crit damage does not (seem) to diminish with range and thus neither would its 15% of all crit damage being allocated as bonus damage to structure).

They may not 'burst damage' like UAC/2s, but they don't need to as unlike UAC/2s, they don't jam and so if you aren't facing someone that can rapidly kill you (in which case it wouldn't matter what you used) then you're bound to do equivalent damage with the LBX-2s over the same time the UAC/2s would burst, jam, unjam and be able to burst again.

Actually try them, you'll be surprised.

Edited by Koniving, 02 February 2018 - 05:09 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Koniving, on 02 February 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

One, I was not only aiming a UAC/20 (with the HUD off) and hit EXCLUSIVELY the target's center torso with both a 5 shot UAC and a LBX-20. (Yes some of the bullets missed as I used them to calibrate my aim so I didn't waste my LBX shots). I'd like to see how you aim yours while the HUD is off.
Anyway CT only. Nothing else. As stated by the recipient of all the damage.
It also showed that the LBX 20 up to over 200 meters acts as a single bullet before it even starts to spread. Showcasing that if people pull their heads from under the rocks they shelter in,they might see how good some of the "bad" weapon systems really can be.
It is also worth noting that if you test multiple mechs with an LBX, the weapon performs very differently for many mechs, so some will do better than others even without skill tree or quirks.

Since you had hud off we can't actually tell if it spread or not from the video, there's no solid proof. After the last time you stated this incorrect information here I wasted some of my time and made a video disproving it that shows it all, doesn't have hidden huds, doesn't rely on hearsay, doesn't rely on only one random guy confirming only CT damage, doesn't mix you firing two different weapons at once, and instead goes over things in a more scientific manner, as should be done for any information that we give to our new players.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 02 February 2018 - 11:07 PM.