Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 02 February 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:
Since you had hud off we can't actually tell if it spread or not from the video, there's no solid proof. After the last time you stated this incorrect information here I wasted some of my time and made a video disproving it that shows it all, doesn't have hidden huds, doesn't rely on hearsay, doesn't rely on only one random guy confirming only CT damage, doesn't mix you firing two different weapons at once, and instead goes over things in a more scientific manner, as should be done for any information that we give to our new players.
Your video plays too fast to show Different Spread Patterns.
Different mechs have access to three to five different spread patterns, with there being 45 unique spread patterns in total in 2014. One can only assume the number has increased since then, and the Hellbringer at the time was the third best case scenario (the best case being the Dire Wolf, but at the time that was the absolute worst mech to use to engage in close range combat....still is so a 220 meter no spread pattern is actually quite worthless there. Again 2014 so it may have varied since.)
Some patterns would not be as inclined to spread as others are.
I specifically know that my Rifleman 3C and LBX2s do not mix as the spread patterns are mostly horizontal (in diagonals) with maybe one pure vertical.
My Legend Killer with LBx2s has exclusively vertical spread patterns. (Will do a video of it today.)
For the other thing, I managed to prove it did once exist. But as Silken proved, it no longer exists. Something that takes over 18 minutes to test, as I told him, testing every single patch to see if a hidden mechanic is still in the game would probably have consumed roughly 4 months over all these years dedicated just to testing this one hidden feature of it on every single patch (all the closed beta patches alone would have consumed 9 days or more) and to be honest with having heard it from the horse's mouth and seen two examples of it, like many LBX haters I basically assumed that they'd never remove or "fix" their method of fighting the heat neutrality movement for infinite unfettered DPS harasser builds. (Also known as Eternally Cold or Heat Neutral builds which was a craze in 2012 and 2013 as it meant unlimited brawling with such specifically mentioned builds as the 9 medium laser Hunchback, but even this measure wasn't enough so they jumped ML heat from 3 to 4 at the time.. We retaliated with other craziness like macro PPCs, jumping from thing after thing eventually leading to that mechanic.) Plus unlike then, I'm now married with a job that consumes 12 hours of my time 4 to 6 nights a week and a 1 year old toddler that can now open the front door and walk out if the deadbolt isn't secured. I don't really have enough time for my youtube channel let alone waste hours testing stuff that had once been proven true. Only reason I know about the LBX2's situation is I've been using them on several mechs.
(I have not used the LBx-20s since 2016).
There was also the time the horse's mouth told me AC/2 was not on the ghost heat list (2013 when it was brand new). Naysayers all disagreed with me when I brought it to the community's attention, so I went for proof
PGI denied it was on ghost heat. (The not working properly bit mentioned later is that the heat spike eventually stops happening and normalizes out).
Just prior to the second video which was after a hotfix) and after some further attempts I got into contact with Paul whom said it was to be on the ghost heat list (but not working correctly and thus not enabled) and then the next full patch officially announced it to be on the ghost heat list (and nothing changed about it from the second video). Mind you this was at a time when PGI made things and then hotfixed the same friday....often....and patcheswere making the transition from every week to every two weeks... now they do it every month with a reasonably higher quality to them and less wild balance changes.
Anyway, now try it with several more mechs; to save yourself some cbills just reuse the same LBX-20 and put it on dfferent mechs. Note the UAC to LBX comparison I had actually given details on was a UAC 2 and LBX 2 of the INNER SPHERE side. (So not entirely sure why you're using the Clan LBX anyway... unless to disprove the Hellbringer's unique situation...except you're not using a Hellbringer...) These days though, I let other people get their proof and sometimes mechanics change. Anyone remember the 1000% cooldown time?
There was also the minute Awesome; the initial quirks for the 8Q + a cold map like Alpine meant you could fire PPCs in chain fire for almost 5 minutes non-stop without shutting down (just stop firing at 97% heat) completely unhindered after boating standard heatsinks (which required low armor but as one can see in this video, 214 armor still tanks quite a bit)... and the only reason you'd even get close is cause eventually the heat would spike (the relic of that mechanic that Silken proved has finally been removed still being there after the Clans were put into the game). Video unfortunately also shows how bored I was getting with the game at the time, alt tabbing to watch youtube videos and just tabbing back in to lob missiles at a target, but then I was informed that they were obliterating our base and half the team suddenly got wiped out. So we rushed over with 3 of us against a bunch of players, then 2 of us, and we dwindled the player numbers down. Lordred in his 214 armor XL engine heatsink boat called the 5 minute Awesome and me in my Warhawk because Warhawks are awesome... unless you're using LBX 20s.
Speaking of.. and mind you the SRMs are also in the mix so that may add to spread perception. Still it proves quite effective if short on ammo.
To save time skip to 3 minutes. What's interesting is PGI claims to have only tighten the spread time and time and time again since then.
Anyway with just the original video all you gotta do is watch the bullet. The kill shot especially has no spread, neither does any other shot. I'm told it was CT only and My LBX had no spread. After I turn the HUD on (the match was a one on one with no HUD for either side), I fire a shot "Holy **** that is one bullet." I tell Lordred to stop shooting me and look and then fire again this time at just over 190 meters and then "Okay well that one spread a little bit." So no real spread til 200 meters there.
The original 45 spread patterns was made (and described to me) in 2013/2014 and was specifically about the IS LBX-10 as it was the only LBX to exist at the time, with the 45 patterns to simulate randomness and 5 pattern limit to keep mechs from feeling the same. Now they have many other methods of doing this. My only recent experience is LBX2sand if you fire them at normally and run it in slow motion you can see the spread pattern change with each firing you will see different spread patterns. (Should see them for the LBx-20 as well but if not, there is at least a logical reasoning behind it, consider HSR and what it is supposed to do, and how a mass of bullets and constantly changing patterns would affect it. With LBX2 that wouldn't be so bad, but LBX20 spams a lot of shells.which when what you see versus what the network sees don't line up could lead to some nasty hit detection issues).
Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 03 February 2018 - 12:17 AM, said:
That was the first mech shown.
I edited after I actually watched it, but the video plays too fast to see the different spread patterns, just that the results are homogenized. The spread patterns would be what matters as to whether they spread significantly enough to be effective at 180 meters, 190, 200, etc.
Like the LBX20 in the Hellbringer video was a single bullet until about 190 and didn't spread enough to even call it spread until 200 meters. In the Warhawk video, it spreads at 170 meters, that's a 20 meter difference and that changes just how far you could expect to have the 1 shot land all 20 pellets onto a single body part.
Or this video in slow motion with an LBX 10. Where I know my range til the LBX spreads for this specific variant of this specific chassis (this shot would not have been possible to look this good with an Orion K) and manage to hit a Dire Wolf over a Timber Wolf without hitting the Timber Wolf despite having a firing window just as big as the crosshair.
Spare Parts Bin, on 29 January 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:
I use CAC-2s and LBX-2s vs CAC-2s. The reason is jams, they always seem to happen when I need them most. Am I wrong in my thinking, if so why?
justcallme A S H, on 29 January 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:
LBX2 - Never
cAC2 - Almost never
cUAC2 - Always.
cUAC2 when boated are excellent because when one or more inevitably jam in the first second or two you can keep firing and maintain reasonable DPS. cACs in MWO are garbage and should realistically, never be used.
If you don't want jams - Just don't "double tap". Although they will jam sometimes (bug issue) - it works fine for the most part and when you do double-tap, your DPS goes through the roof.
You can hold down the button to avoid ultra fire (though I wish they'd implement an ultra mode, similar to AMS and ECM toggles,) and just pound away normally. But in general, you're going to do better against any semi-competent opponent with burst-fire damage, particularly since the UAC/2s jam chance isn't too long.
The only time I'd go to c-AC/2s is if I was having significant heat problems boating large numbers of the weapon.
(Huh. Well this is unexpected. I genuinely don't remember doing this but I think I know why the spread is only vertical on my Legend Killer. I do have the spread nodes. Could have sworn I didn't bother with them.)
So that explains why it is purely vertical spread for my LBX2s.
Wonder what it'd do for LBX5s and 10s...o.O;
The Protector, however... has no such thing.
Spoiler
And just in case "You probably have more than one."
I'll do some personal testing to see if the old LBX stuff has actually changed (if HSR and hit registration became an issue, then like with LRM spread patterns which once were like this and like this now are like this. (wavy motion lost. Spin lost.), then it would be perfectly understandable if they removed the unique LBX patterns now that I know I did happen to take the LBX spread nodes, counter to what I thought I had done.)
As I said though, the video doesn't show us the actual spread patterns (and no LBX 20 should be one bullet to 270 meters anyway; not with MWO's chosen shotgun method).
Whether they removed the spread patterns at any time between then and now doesn't change the rest of the facts, however, about the IS LBX2 and UAC/2 comparisons.
Other than "take the LBX nodes" just like with the UAC/2s, take the UAC jam nodes.
You can hold down the button to avoid ultra fire (though I wish they'd implement an ultra mode, similar to AMS and ECM toggles,) and just pound away normally. But in general, you're going to do better against any semi-competent opponent with burst-fire damage, particularly since the UAC/2s jam chance isn't too long.
The only time I'd go to c-AC/2s is if I was having significant heat problems boating large numbers of the weapon.
The "bug issue" in your quote of the other guy is about the issue where UACs are jamming on the first shot again if you have too many cooldown nodes unlocked (at least that is what some of the community believes is the cause).
Fires all 3 UAC/2s once in chain fire... All 3 jam.
That's probably because in order to fire a chainfire sequence faster than 0.5 seconds apart you have to click once per gun on the sequence. Three clicks and all three believe "you tried to double fire all 3 of us." I think it is just the UACs are counting all double clicks associated with any UAC as going for all UACs.
Some claim that it happens even if you hold it down, though. I haven't investigated it (or pretty much anything since 2016, a few years after I stopped chasing squirrels and started to live life). So if you want you might check it out. If you think you got the root cause let PGI know, maybe in 1 to 3 patches they'll fix it.
Til then I'll stick to just my LBXs and standard ACs.
I'm still pissed about the UAC/10 triggering ghost heat with just two UAC/10s despite the limit being 3 to trigger it just 'cause I'm double tapping too soon. Double tap firing times should have a lock or something to prevent that.. Or just lock a limited threshold and ditch ghost heat... Or make it so that alphas aren't the end all meta.
Spare Parts Bin, on 03 February 2018 - 04:14 AM, said:
I do not definitive proof but my CUAC-2s seem to jam more often than my CUAC-5s.
It's likely because you would 'click' UAC/2s faster than UAC/5s. I'll play around with them tomorrow by using macros for controlled clicking. Tonight's going to LBX testing to see if they changed what I was told in 2014 (they probably have, like with the missiles I think it would be a change for the worse but it would make it easier to balance and normalize the weapon if they did ditch that assortment of spread patterns.) Least now I know why my 3C sucked with the LBX2s... horizontal spread from not having taken any LBX spread nodes. If any LBX is gonna have the different spread patterns it'd be the original LBX 10 as that's what they were made for back then, so that's where I'll start and if that no longer has them, it would be safe to say that 'feature' has been removed. This game gets more and more dumbed down over the years.
It's like going from Oblivion to Skyrim in terms of mechanics. ...the AI in Skyrim is so damn dumb when it comes to daily life. In Oblivion you can steal the food from places that they like to eat, and they wouldn't have any, so they would steal food from other people or go out and buy some; when stealing they'd get arrested or kill in self defense... In Skyrim they just magically pull food from the air and they don't need to eat, they just do as an idle animation.
(The recent joke in Star Citizen about "logging off" in toilets brought a funny parody to a similar mechanical behavior aimed at players rather than NPCs, 'we joked around with ideas like your vision would get redder and redder if you haven't dropped a deuce in a long time. Or (in discussing more seriously) NPCs reacting poorly to you if you haven't showered in forever'.)
Spoiler
Honestly if PGI gave LBX their early lore descriptions of being 'Flak-like projectiles', you'd have a single projectile that fires from the gun and after getting into proximity with a target, it fractures or releases its payload of small explosives and that gives the 'shotgun spread' as if fired up close, while keeping the lore's superior range for LBX weaponry; but I'm not designing the game sadly. That would Significantly raise the weapon's value both real and perceived.
But then if they did lore versions of the weapons, we'd have at least 3 types of ammo for ATM that you'd have to switch between to get 1, 2 or 3 damage with 3 different ranges to remember and need at least 3 slots to hold all three types of ammo... 3 types of LRM ammo just to get what our LRMs do (standard, NARC-enabled, "Semi-Homing" aka TAG-enabled). Not counting the separate Artemis LRMs, which wouldn't be compatible with the prior things. Then you'd have NARC-enabled SRMs and SRMs both having guidance... and Streaks that didn't defy the laws of gravity but literally just refuse to fire unless you had a 90% chance of hitting the target. It just keeps going and going down the rabbit hole... so we get what we got instead.
To control the UAC/2 jamming, try this. Fire. Count. Fire.
Click 1. 2. Click
Click. 1. 2. Click.
Can be a quick count, just verbally say 1 2 in between. You'll have fewer jams for your double taps. If that works, then try reducing it to 1 (such as "Click. Stop. Click.") and see what happens. And if that works, try this. "Click-stop-click-stop-click-stop-click" for some rapid fire. We get into jam city when you hear..
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 03 February 2018 - 07:50 AM
Kon, I've said it before, to get the Flak round effect PGI could have it linked to having a target lock, while keeping their current effect tied to not having a lock... just like how LRM's will dumb fire with out a target lock.
Metus regem, on 03 February 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:
Kon, I've said it before, to get the Flak round effect PGI could have it linked to having a target lock, while keeping their current effect tied to not having a lock... just like how LRM's will dumb fire with out a target lock.
They could.
Or they could simply have it detonate in proximity to any enemy object. Who would want something to explode right in front of them? That way you don't have to screw over all the LRM users trying to support you by unselecting the target, since you can't "unselect" a target if there is more than one target which would ruin your ability to "shotgun" it at close range as it would wait until reaching the range of the 'other' target 2193 meters away before bursting, and knowing PGI they would make the projectile that didn't 'burst' do zero damage to avoid exploiting it.
So the simpler, less "PGI" way of doing it is just proximity to a metal target or building with an enemy signature. That way no target locks required, no bull, and you get this.
Regardless of any new bug that is or isn't extant, in my totally anecdotal experience the first-round jam chance wasn't noticeable if I held down the fire button - the first-round jam only seems to happen when I try to double tap.
Will always be cac2, or less often but almost as good lbx2. I never go cuac2. If I’m carrying 2’s i’m Carrying more than 1. Group all together and you have a mini gauss that never jams, 4,6,8,10,12 damage every .72 seconds. Same range and velocity as a gauss. Group all together on both your mouse buttons, both set to chain fire and by twiddling your fingers you get unending burst fire faster or as fast as uac’s but without the jams or heat. You can’t twiddle your fingers as fast as they recharge. Twiddling with uac’s catches the double tap and they jam. There ya go, just my thoughts.
Oh, and you don’t need uac’s jam nodes, and since piranhas, I usually don’t use lbx spread on 2’s
Edited by ShadowJack 420, 04 February 2018 - 10:10 PM.
LocationSearching alternate universes via temporal wormhole generator.
Posted 07 February 2018 - 12:53 PM
ShadowJack 420, on 04 February 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:
Will always be cac2, or less often but almost as good lbx2. I never go cuac2. If I’m carrying 2’s i’m Carrying more than 1. Group all together and you have a mini gauss that never jams, 4,6,8,10,12 damage every .72 seconds. Same range and velocity as a gauss. Group all together on both your mouse buttons, both set to chain fire and by twiddling your fingers you get unending burst fire faster or as fast as uac’s but without the jams or heat. You can’t twiddle your fingers as fast as they recharge. Twiddling with uac’s catches the double tap and they jam. There ya go, just my thoughts.
Oh, and you don’t need uac’s jam nodes, and since piranhas, I usually don’t use lbx spread on 2’s
If I carry at least 4 CAC2s then 2 are on button 1 and the next two are on button 2. Great minds think alike
Spare Parts Bin, on 29 January 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:
I use CAC-2s and LBX-2s vs CAC-2s. The reason is jams, they always seem to happen when I need them most. Am I wrong in my thinking, if so why?
You have discovered the reason that can ACs are not utilized very much (or ultras on most mechs). PGI has let the whole jam mechanism get out of control. Try to avoid them on the clan side and use a Gauss or (worst case) LBX. The recent 'Unfunning' push is trying to address that but I doubt PGI will make significant changes.
LocationSearching alternate universes via temporal wormhole generator.
Posted 13 February 2018 - 04:09 PM
nehebkau, on 13 February 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:
You have discovered the reason that can ACs are not utilized very much (or ultras on most mechs). PGI has let the whole jam mechanism get out of control. Try to avoid them on the clan side and use a Gauss or (worst case) LBX. The recent 'Unfunning' push is trying to address that but I doubt PGI will make significant changes.
Never was good at Gauss, Clan nor IS. Would rather have 4 LBX2. On my Black Widow I use one UAC-5 or LBX-10, 3 LMGs,3 MLs, and a Rocket Pod 10,15, or 20.
Edited by Spare Parts Bin, 13 February 2018 - 04:10 PM.
People Dont see the issues with jams just old data (myself included winsome cases). But in using the new weapons there's no denying the superiority of IS lbs to is uac. Haters still gonna hate
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Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 02 February 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:
