50 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

KingCobra, on 03 February 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

Im sorry Andi but TT was very unrealistic in its game play and design I know first hand playing it in tournaments back in the day.

MWO should be the pinnacle of this IP series as far as realism and simulation not some unrealistic childlike game play with machine guns as a meta weapon of unbalanced power.

true but BattleTech wasnt made to be realistic to how things are now, it was made as a TT game,
which is why a 15Ton weapon system only fires 270m its because thats how the game was designed,
ya you could change it, but PGI seems stead fast on keep as close to TT as possible,

KingCobra, on 03 February 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

I guess you don't know what a M60 is?

um i think he ment the M60 Machine Gun,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 03 February 2018 - 09:28 AM.

[FupDup]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 February 2018 - 09:24 AM, said:

um i think he ment the M60 Machine Gun,

Yeah that's what I was interpreting the post as.

Either way, in his anecdote about the tank being hit by thousands of MG rounds I'm pretty sure he was observing man-portable guns rather than giant car-sized guns shooting at that tank.

Edited by FupDup, 03 February 2018 - 09:26 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

KingCobra, on 03 February 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

Im sorry Andi but TT was very unrealistic in its game play and design I know first hand playing it in tournaments back in the day.

MWO should be the pinnacle of this IP series as far as realism and simulation not some unrealistic childlike game play with machine guns as a meta weapon of unbalanced power.

There is absolutely nothing realistic about 100 ton robot combat. Not one goddamnn thing.

[El Bandito]

razenWing, on 03 February 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

Like in MW4, it's basically 3 machine guns bind together for 2 critical slots.

----

Does it increase DPS? Yes, but the ammo cut is SUPER drastic, and you lose the 2 E hardpoints on the arms. (actually, it can be debated because 2 heavy medium is 20 damages compare to 0.75x3 per sec...) So, I think that's a good counter balance to potential abuse.

I'd prefer if MG crit damage value gets drastic nerf before MG array is introduced. BTW, I sent you lobby invite for "that thing we need to do". Just waiting on ya.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 February 2018 - 09:29 AM.

[KingCobra]

FupDup, on 03 February 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

It's this thing, right?



That thing is not anywhere near the size of the MGs mounted on our Battlemechs in MWO. Googles says that the M60 weighs about 10.5 kilos. The mech-mounted Inner Sphere Machine Gun is 47.6 times heavier than it.

The problem that these kind of arguments always boils down to is the name "machine gun." The makers of BT chose a crappy name for something that weighs as much as a small car. People then go on to make statements that this weapon should be crappy solely because of its name rather than its technical specifications.

WOW just WOW fella you need to be reeled in from mars in the first place lets go with your unrealistic view and in the future we have these huge machine guns on battlemechs don't you think the designers of the mechs would not be smart and make better armor so machine guns and small arms would be virtually useless against them?

Go watch FURY the movie did you ever see a tank shooting another tank with a 50 cal? heck no but you did see what the machine gun was originally supposed to do kill infantry and small vehicles like wheeled troop transports.

SO if asked I would remove machine guns from MWO or reduce there overpowered crits or make proper missions to use them correctly .

[Kaeb Odellas]

KingCobra, on 03 February 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

WOW just WOW fella you need to be reeled in from mars in the first place lets go with your unrealistic view and in the future we have these huge machine guns on battlemechs don't you think the designers of the mechs would not be smart and make better armor so machine guns and small arms would be virtually useless against them?

Go watch FURY the movie did you ever see a tank shooting another tank with a 50 cal? heck no but you did see what the machine gun was originally supposed to do kill infantry and small vehicles like wheeled troop transports.

SO if asked I would remove machine guns from MWO or reduce there overpowered crits or make proper missions to use them correctly .

Battletech machine guns are not modern day machine guns.

A Browning .50 cal weighs 80 lb (130 with tripod). A BT machine gun weighs half a ton.



The GAU-8 Avenger weighs 281 kg. That's just a little bit more than the Clan MG. That's the comparison you need to be making.

[Pocket_Aces]

In TT, MGs did 2 points against mechs, against infantry, MG damage was doubled, ballistics normal, lasers and PPCs half damage. As for it not being in canon, it was, in particular CityTech and most of the TR state, that MGs are there for infantry, in fact the whole reason Piranhas exist was to take out swarms of infantry.

Was playing BT since 1986, and owned all the supplements, TR, and maps until clans came out, then I sold all my stuff cause clans are stupid. Yes, I know ironic isn't it, that now I am a clanner.

Edited by Pocket_Aces, 03 February 2018 - 09:50 AM.

[FupDup]

KingCobra, on 03 February 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

WOW just WOW fella you need to be reeled in from mars in the first place lets go with your unrealistic view and in the future we have these huge machine guns on battlemechs don't you think the designers of the mechs would not be smart and make better armor so machine guns and small arms would be virtually useless against them?

I'm not the one who created this unrealistic view, the people who made Battletech are the ones who did it.

In the arm's race of guns vs. armor, the guns tend to win in the long run.

For BT in particular they're using special ablative armor that is designed to explode outwards when hit hard enough, to deflect force away from the main unit. This kind of armor is better against super-powerful things like a Gauss Rifle that would just go straight through normal armor, but probably weaker against smaller attacks that can chip away the outer layers.

KingCobra, on 03 February 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

Go watch FURY the movie did you ever see a tank shooting another tank with a 50 cal? heck no but you did see what the machine gun was originally supposed to do kill infantry and small vehicles like wheeled troop transports.

You still aren't getting the point that these "MGs" in MWO are nearly 50 times heavier than those (comparatively) dinky 50 cal MGs in modern movies. In terms of size these "MGs" are closer to a GAU-8.

KingCobra, on 03 February 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

SO if asked I would remove machine guns from MWO or reduce there overpowered crits or make proper missions to use them correctly.

I do think the crits should be reduced, but not for the same reasons as you (I'd also see their base damage increased as compensation).

And really, just for the sake of argument, I'm going to also tackle the "proper missions" angle. Let's assume that PGI did add tiny little infantry dudes to shoot at. Equipping MGs solely to deal with them would be a useless waste of tonnage. Why?

1. For one, MG spread against a tiny target means that a lot of your bullets are going to miss, making the weapon horribly inefficient for that duty.

2. For two, infantry in Battletech are incredibly weak. The strongest weapon that a soldier can use (as far as I'm aware) in BT is a single-shot SRM2 launcher (which would be an utter joke against a mech) that has a max range of 90 meters. Once he fires that one shot, that's all he gets and has to run back to base to grab another weapon (if that's even available).

3. Speaking of weak infantry, even a Dire Wolf going in reverse can outrun BT infantry (they go like 10 kph tops). Combine that with their very short ranged weapons and it will be very hard for them to actually get anything done against mechs.

4. Lasers, with their MWO duration mechanic, would be very good for sweeping over squads of dudes and don't have any spread problem. Just mount a few Medium Lasers, put them on chainfire, and start mowing down all the little ants. No MGs required.

Edited by FupDup, 03 February 2018 - 09:43 AM.

[Pocket_Aces]

Adding some more tech would be good, MG arrays, HAG, plasma rifles (yeah dunno?) and ER Pulse lasers. Even some cool stuff like the cooling sheets that wrap around lasers, reduce heat by one, but can jam, much like a UAC. Hopefully late next year or even 2019, maybe even the IS omnis?

[Requiemking]

FupDup, on 03 February 2018 - 09:41 AM, said:

I'm not the one who created this unrealistic view, the people who made Battletech are the ones who did it.

In the arm's race of guns vs. armor, the guns tend to win in the long run.

For BT in particular they're using special ablative armor that is designed to explode outwards when hit hard enough, to deflect force away from the main unit. This kind of armor is better against super-powerful things like a Gauss Rifle that would just go straight through normal armor, but probably weaker against smaller attacks that can chip away the outer layers.


You still aren't getting the point that these "MGs" in MWO are nearly 50 times heavier than those (comparatively) dinky 50 cal MGs in modern movies. In terms of size these "MGs" are closer to a GAU-8.


I do think the crits should be reduced, but not for the same reasons as you (I'd also see their base damage increased as compensation).

And really, just for the sake of argument, I'm going to also tackle the "proper missions" angle. Let's assume that PGI did add tiny little infantry dudes to shoot at. Equipping MGs solely to deal with them would be a useless waste of tonnage. Why?

1. For one, MG spread against a tiny target means that a lot of your bullets are going to miss, making the weapon horribly inefficient for that duty.

2. For two, infantry in Battletech are incredibly weak. The strongest weapon that a soldier can use (as far as I'm aware) in BT is a single-shot SRM2 launcher (which would be an utter joke against a mech) that has a max range of 90 meters. Once he fires that one shot, that's all he gets and has to run back to base to grab another weapon (if that's even available).

3. Speaking of weak infantry, even a Dire Wolf going in reverse can outrun BT infantry (they go like 10 kph tops). Combine that with their very short ranged weapons and it will be very hard for them to actually get anything done against mechs.

4. Lasers, with their MWO duration mechanic, would be very good for sweeping over squads of dudes and don't have any spread problem. Just mount a few Medium Lasers, put them on chainfire, and start mowing down all the little ants. No MGs required.

OR just blast them with Flamers. Flamers in TT were always superior to MGs in TT because they lacked ammo.

[FupDup]

Requiemking, on 03 February 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

OR just blast them with Flamers. Flamers in TT were always superior to MGs in TT because they lacked ammo.

That too, but lasers are more universally applicable instead of specialized.

[Requiemking]

FupDup, on 03 February 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

That too, but lasers are more universally applicable instead of specialized.

Maybe. According to the rulesets my TT group uses, Lasers, not matter the size, only hit one infantryman out of a squad, while weapons with the anti-infantry perk(such as MGs and Flamers) hit the whole squad. Also, Flamers deal 2 damage to armor according to Sarna.

[FupDup]

Requiemking, on 03 February 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

Maybe. According to the rulesets my TT group uses, Lasers, not matter the size, only hit one infantryman out of a squad, while weapons with the anti-infantry perk(such as MGs and Flamers) hit the whole squad. Also, Flamers deal 2 damage to armor according to Sarna.

I'm going off of MWO laser rules, not TT ones.

For TT, the Small and Micro Pulse Lasers were equal to MGs for anti-infantry damage, and the MPL/LPL were about equal to a Light MG (average of 3 dudes hit).

EDIT: Table from TechManual as my source:

Edited by FupDup, 03 February 2018 - 10:04 AM.

[razenWing]

So... are we just moving on from my proposed 2 slots 1.5/3 ton machine gun array idea?

That's cool...

[FupDup]

razenWing, on 03 February 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

So... are we just moving on from my proposed 2 slots 1.5/3 ton machine gun array idea?

That's cool...

I agree that the derailment towards the realism/infantry/etc debate was sad, but PGI was definitely never going to invent a random fan weapon. Even the non-canon Clan ACs are still mirroring the TT stats for the corresponding LB-X ACs.

It's just not an option, for better or for worse. A better option would be to ask for other weapons that do exist like Magshots, AP Gauss, Light ACs, and Protomech ACs to help mechs use ballistic hardpoints without spending massive tonnage.

Edited by FupDup, 03 February 2018 - 10:45 AM.

[The Lighthouse]

FupDup, on 03 February 2018 - 08:38 AM, said:

PGI is adhering to most of them, and they call the shots around here.

...what?

Where are the TT rules that when a mech fires certain amount of same weapons, the weapons would generate ridiculous amount of extra heat?

What are these Clan ACs? Do Clans have normal ACs in TT?


....


We are talking about this game that has a weapon family which actually does not exist on TT/Lore. Yet people here are going crazy when we talk about things like Magma guns or Plasma PPCs from Mechassault.



Ask any lore junkies whether MWO resembles TT.



Seriously, as razenWing said, stop worrying about rules, and start worrying about being good games.



From first Mechwarrior actually had really nice weight/speed mechanism, none of the Mechwarrior games worried about those stupid rules, instead they tried to be good games first.


MWO, by worrying about rules, it stopped worrying about being a good game, and we are suffering from this decision.

[FupDup]

The Lighthouse, on 03 February 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

...what?

Where are the TT rules that when a mech fires certain amount of same weapons, the weapons would generate ridiculous amount of extra heat?

What are these Clan ACs? Do Clans have normal ACs in TT?

....

We are talking about this game that has a weapon family which actually does not exist on TT/Lore. Yet people here are going crazy when we talk about things like Magma guns or Plasma PPCs from Mechassault.

Ask any lore junkies whether MWO resembles TT.

Seriously, as razenWing said, stop worrying about rules, and start worrying about being good games.

From first Mechwarrior actually had really nice weight/speed mechanism, none of the Mechwarrior games worried about those stupid rules, instead they tried to be good games first.

MWO, by worrying about rules, it stopped worrying about being a good game, and we are suffering from this decision.

The issue is that PGI is very picky about which specific rules they stick to and which ones they don't. The tonnage/slots rules are the ones they refuse to touch. Even those made-up Clan ACs still stick to the weight/slots from TT.

If you want my honest personal opinion I actually wouldn't mind at all if CGL did decide to canonize stuff like the Mechassault Plasma PPCs. In fact, I even added a custom "Lava Gun" (I named it the Armageddon Cannon to sound manlier) to SSW for trying to approximate the Ragnarok using TT rules.

For the OP's idea specifically it just feels kinda weird having a new weapon that amounts to an "extra big MG." I don't think that gun standing in the way of making Mechwarrior great again. There are other options like Magshots and AP Gauss that not only offer actual playstyle differences compared to MGs, but also stick within the framework that PGI refuses to alter.

Edited by FupDup, 03 February 2018 - 10:58 AM.

[KingCobra]

FupDup, on 03 February 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

The issue is that PGI is very picky about which specific rules they stick to and which ones they don't. The tonnage/slots rules are the ones they refuse to touch. Even those made-up Clan ACs still stick to the weight/slots from TT.

If you want my honest personal opinion I actually wouldn't mind at all if CGL did decide to canonize stuff like the Mechassault Plasma PPCs. In fact, I even added a custom "Lava Gun" (I named it the Armageddon Cannon to sound manlier) to SSW for trying to approximate the Ragnarok using TT rules.

This IP of Mechwarrior/battletech games was made by people that loved StarWars and its futuristic ideas there are very few things in MWO that are in any way shape or form realistic at all compared to modern games like battlefield ETC.

But if you put all the lore together from the books and TT MWO does not totally conform to those ether.

And this guy may be right in saying (MWO, by worrying about rules, it stopped worrying about being a good game, and we are suffering from this decision.)

That to me is why we have Overpowered weapons no armor and unreal expectations of what MWO should be like to me personnaly MWO back in closed beta was a far better balanced game than we have now and adding more unrealistic OP weapons only makes it worse and closer to why almost everyone left this game.

Because MWO is becoming more like the FPS E-SPORT game that no one but the lords of MWO wanted in the first place along with its OP machine guns.

Edited by KingCobra, 03 February 2018 - 11:08 AM.

[FupDup]

KingCobra, on 03 February 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

This IP of Mechwarrior/battletech games was made by people that loved StarWars and its futuristic ideas there are very few things in MWO that are in any way shap or for realistic at all compared to modern games like battlefield ETC.

But if you put all the lore together from the books and TT MWO does not totally conform to those ether.

And this guy may be right in saying (MWO, by worrying about rules, it stopped worrying about being a good game, and we are suffering from this decision.)

That to me is why we have Overpowered weapons no armor and unreal expectations of what MWO should be like to me personnaly MWO back in closed beta was a far better balanced game than we have now and adding more unrealistic OP weapons only makes it worse and closer to why almost everyone left this game.

Because MWO is becoming more like the FPS E-SPORT game that no one but the lords of MWO wanted in the first place along with its OP machine guns.

MGs being viable against mechs is not an example to use for "break rules when it's beneficial for the game." Making MGs suck is bad for the game.

[KingCobra]

FupDup, on 03 February 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:

MGs being viable against mechs is not an example to use for "break rules when it's beneficial for the game." Making MGs suck is bad for the game.

Whatever opinions are like A-h**** everyone has one but some are just bad opinions to start with.

And your right letting OP lights run around with machine guns and even face tanking a assault is good gaming design.

Edited by KingCobra, 03 February 2018 - 11:13 AM.