83 replies to this topic

[PoohPuss]

So, I've seen a few threads where players laugh about those that don't do above 500 dmg. Seen that vets will teach you how to do 2k damage per match (on average?). Heard people talking with spite about the participants who didn't pass 300 damage. This puzzles me some.

I did some quick math, not very accurate, but enough to get a clue. Given an ideal spread of 3 mechs per category of sensible types, a team only need to deal 1300 damage to CT to kill the whole of the opposing team (EDIT: Talking about QP). That's assuming no crits. It then stands to reason that any surplus damage caused is because it's spread out where it doesen't kill, ie misses.

If you shoot only where it counts (and can't get at their backs) you'll have caused damage equal to one kill (averageing the mechs armor of course) at 110 damage. If you killed the whole enemy team yourself and none of your team-mates did a single point of damage, dealing 2k damage yourself, that would entail roughly 300 dmg worth of misses.

If 12 perfect players won a skirmish doing equal amounts of damage, they would only cause 110 damage each. If a real life tier-1 team win, each doing 1k dmg on average (I don't think there is that much armor and HP present in any given match), that would mean 900 damage worth of essentially misses on average.

(EDIT: "misses" is in this context just for making a point, inaccuracies are what I'm talking about. Also, that matches and players aren't ideal is a matter of course. It's a baseline, a measure of "perfect", for comparison of skill. It's like the French university grading system, that ranges from 0-100% but where 100% is unattainable "because nothing is perfect".)

So I'm wondering what I'm missing regarding the whole "if you do less than 2k damage you're dung" attitude?


PS: I'm not being salty, I know I'm dung and quite comfortable with it. I'm just puzzled.

Edited by PoohPuss, 05 February 2018 - 05:53 PM.

[Bombast]

Your numbers are kind of all over the place. 500 is generally the 'You did your part' cut off, unless you did kill a bunch of people in which case you get a 'pass,' and the 2000 damage standard people throw around isn't for QP, but for FP. Because four mechs at 500 damage a piece is 2000.

Yes, efficient killing means less damage, but in practice efficient killing just means you should be shooting at something else faster. A good players damage will stay high regardless of how accurate they are simply because good players are always engaged, or trying to engage.

Generally speaking:

500 damage - Doing your part
600 damage - Doing really well
750 damage - Calm down and save some for the rest of us

If someone's racking up a crap ton of kills while doing less damage than that, that's awesome too. But I think you'll find high kill count players also have high damage averages as well.

[Metus regem]

/shrug

Most of the time, I try to keep my damage in the 125-150/kill range for a KMDD... then again I prize efficiency over damage farming, as if I am pumping out 1K+ damage, it means I am either A) being sloppy with my shots or B.) Using a sloppy inefficient weapon such as LB seires AC/s or LRM/s.

The other thing that dealing high damage games means you are doing more work than you should be, now it is not unusual that heavier mechs need to pick up the slack from lighter mechs, but what it tells me is that at least one person on your team is not pulling their weight so to speak.


That all being said, I don't care about stats, I don't care if someone can put out 1K damage games on average... I care about how well do you work with your team.

For example, my BSW-X2 averages 300dmg/match, a 1.36 KDR and a 4.5 W/L raito. Those stats are because I play more to team support than Rambo, I make sure my team's heavies and assaults get to where they are needed most, with out being harassed by pesky lights / mediums.

[Bud Crue]

In short: a**holes are going to be a**holes. Any "If you do less than 2K damage average you're dung" attitude you have experienced is from a**holes and not reflective of realistic game performance or even attitudes toward what is a realistic expectation on average.

Tarogato once posted some good numbers on actual averages across all tiers and the numbers were surprisingly meh.

My view is similar to Bombast's though I would assert somewhat lower numbers for a realistic average.

300 damage -doing your part
500 damage -that's a hell of an average.
more than 700 average - probably ought to teach the rest of us how to do that.

Again I am talking about average numbers here. You put up more than 700 damage on average over a decent number of matches and you are a true top tier player (as opposed to most of us tier one players). Just my two cents. Go find Tarogato's numbers, can probably find it via google.

[Kalimaster]

Head shots man.....head shots. Then there is blowing a dudes arms off, laughing about it, and then head shot. Now I have a reason to look forward to....in getting the Blood Asp.

[PoohPuss]

Bombast, on 05 February 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

Your numbers are kind of all over the place. 500 is generally the 'You did your part' cut off, unless you did kill a bunch of people in which case you get a 'pass,' and the 2000 damage standard people throw around isn't for QP, but for FP. Because four mechs at 500 damage a piece is 2000.

Yes, efficient killing means less damage, but in practice efficient killing just means you should be shooting at something else faster. A good players damage will stay high regardless of how accurate they are simply because good players are always engaged, or trying to engage.

Generally speaking:

500 damage - Doing your part
600 damage - Doing really well
750 damage - Calm down and save some for the rest of us

If someone's racking up a crap ton of kills while doing less damage than that, that's awesome too. But I think you'll find high kill count players also have high damage averages as well.

Just something about the numbers.
I don't know of any mechs that have 500 armor plus hp on the center front torso? The Atlas has 185 before nodes if you set rear armor to 1 (not sure if that includes quirks), and I don't think you can field 12 Atlases in even FP? So, killing 2 to 2,5 Atlases is "doing your part"?

[LordNothing]

its a silly attitude put fourth by people who have more ego than brains. fp games i played where i took the time to find a group in lfg i found i could not only play as good as the unit players but that everyone had a consistent 1.2k damage down the board, in several matches with very little variation. thats only about 300 damage a mech, and thats all you need to win.

sometimes you do come out with 2k damage but usually because the other team was below your skill level anyway, and your team wasn't as good as you either. it feels like you are the ringer for a no skill team against a no skill team and you just roll with the punches and end up farming massive damage (because you are living longer, spreading damage better, aiming better, doing more damage, exploiting more mistakes, it can be a turkey shoot sometimes). when you are a high skill player this becomes a normal game and not a rare unicorn.

but there are those players who get great damage solo, but they just arent team players. they will throw their team under the bus and will have the highest team damage in the match. they will use their team as a meat shield to protect their own score.

[Bombast]

PoohPuss, on 05 February 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Just something about the numbers.
I don't know of any mechs that have 500 armor plus hp on the center front torso? The Atlas has 185 before nodes if you set rear armor to 1 (not sure if that includes quirks), and I don't think you can field 12 Atlases in even FP? So, killing 2 to 2,5 Atlases is "doing your part"?

Why are you so obsessed with something that's even more unreasonable than asking people to do 500 damage?

[Asym]

PoohPuss, on 05 February 2018 - 03:17 PM, said:

So, I've seen a few threads where players laugh about those that don't do above 500 dmg.

So I'm wondering what I'm missing regarding the whole "if you do less than 2k damage you're dung" attitude?

PS: I'm not being salty, I know I'm dung and quite comfortable with it. I'm just puzzled.

Aren't we all? Puzzled that is...

Don't we all need to feel "superior"?
Don't we all need to self-justify why we are "playing a freaking video game"; instead, of reloading cartridges for the upcoming long range precision match this next weekend??? (where we really shoot precision rifles out beyond 800 meters for score.....) Or, finishing another ballistic test of a new rifle?

Ignore them.....and have fun and whatever "statistics" result from having some fun is good enough.......

[Bud Crue]

Bombast, on 05 February 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

Why are you so obsessed with something that's even more unreasonable than asking people to do 500 damage?

Indeed. No one, not even the biggest hide in the back with Gauss and ERLL or ERPPCs schmuck hits with every shot, let alone hits the component they are aiming at with every shot unerringly. If you can consistently kill a target by digging through the CT (Atlas or any mech) every time and hit nothing else, and do that consistently, then you probably would be not only the best player in the game, but likely bored out of your mind. Just an odd hypothetical.

[PoohPuss]

Seems there doesen't need to be too much attention put towards a subject these days to account for obsession.

@Bad Crue, Bombast expressed he didn't understand the numbers I presented in my first post so I laid them out for him. No biggie.

Edited by PoohPuss, 05 February 2018 - 04:14 PM.

[Bombast]

PoohPuss, on 05 February 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

Seems there doesen't need to be too much attention put towards a subject these days to account for obsession.

You keep saying the same thing over and over again, without any strong basis. Why should an impossible kill standard (No miss CT coring) be the metric by which people are judged? You've yet to argue that point, yet it seems to be all you're interested in.

[r4zen]

PoohPuss, on 05 February 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Just something about the numbers.
I don't know of any mechs that have 500 armor plus hp on the center front torso? The Atlas has 185 before nodes if you set rear armor to 1 (not sure if that includes quirks), and I don't think you can field 12 Atlases in even FP? So, killing 2 to 2,5 Atlases is "doing your part"?

There are comparatively few players of this game who can focus their fire on a single component. The arbitrary 500 damage number is just that - arbitrary. Most pilots spread the hell out of their damage - 350 dmg+ per kill or KMDD is common.

Are you referring to FP drops or QP drops? No one should hate on a medium doing 300 damage without LRMs in a QP drop. A pilot who rolls 4 mechs and does 300 damage in an FP drop though...that's pitiful.

[PoohPuss]

I've pressed the "like button" on several responses that I thought had interesting points, including your first @Bombast. That I don't reply to every point someone makes and lauds them for it doesen't mean I don't appriciate the perspective and candour. Your fixation on what you believe I'm thinking is a product of your mind mate.

Edited by PoohPuss, 05 February 2018 - 05:08 PM.

[Escef]

Bombast, on 05 February 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

Generally speaking:

500 damage - Doing your part
600 damage - Doing really well
750 damage - Calm down and save some for the rest of us

500 is minimum for "doing your part"? If that's the case, than I've seen a LOT of games where no one on either team "does their part".

[Bombast]

PoohPuss, on 05 February 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

I've pressed the "like button" on several responses that I thought had interesting points, including your first @Bombast. That I doesen't reply to every point someone makes and lauds them for it doesen't mean I don't appriciate the perspective and candour. Your fixation on what you believe I'm thinking is a product of your mind mate.

If you say so.

Escef, on 05 February 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

500 is minimum for "doing your part"? If that's the case, than I've seen a LOT of games where no one on either team "does their part".

Perhaps I poorly explained it. My rational for 500 damage is that that is the point, I believe, where it's basically impossible to not have contributed to the match. While its possible to do 300 damage (As an example) and contribute, it's also possible to do 300 damage and have it all be useless garbage damage that didn't contribute to a kill. At 500, you can't help but have messed up someones, probably two someones.

If you do 250 damage and got 2 kills, of course that's something. But if you're purely going by the damage stat and nothing else, 500 is where I think the line is.

[ANOM O MECH]

In this game you are rewarded for firing your weapons as much as possible.

Proton's rule is doing 10 damage per ton.

The folks stepping up with the accuracy arguments have somewhat of a point, but if you are just focusing on killing a target while missing opportunities to perhaps shoot whatever is available, you will not be as effective no matter how good your aim.

Also being super accurate is great against potatos. Good players twist, jump, run and do whatever they can to mitigate damage. Often you have to take off the arm or shield side of a good player, anyone saying otherwise is either in another skill bracket than most, such as Proton, or not very good.

For me, I didn't pay attention to the damage numbers as much as I tried to make sure that I was always shooting and riding my heat. The damage number will come if I am making sure I am putting out as much hurt as I can while still alive.

[ANOM O MECH]

LordNothing, on 05 February 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

its a silly attitude put fourth by people who have more ego than brains. fp games i played where i took the time to find a group in lfg i found i could not only play as good as the unit players but that everyone had a consistent 1.2k damage down the board, in several matches with very little variation. thats only about 300 damage a mech, and thats all you need to win.

sometimes you do come out with 2k damage but usually because the other team was below your skill level anyway, and your team wasn't as good as you either. it feels like you are the ringer for a no skill team against a no skill team and you just roll with the punches and end up farming massive damage (because you are living longer, spreading damage better, aiming better, doing more damage, exploiting more mistakes, it can be a turkey shoot sometimes). when you are a high skill player this becomes a normal game and not a rare unicorn.

but there are those players who get great damage solo, but they just arent team players. they will throw their team under the bus and will have the highest team damage in the match. they will use their team as a meat shield to protect their own score.

Interesting perspective.

Completely wrong, but interesting.

Perfect example of the skill disparity and lack of understanding the game.

[PoohPuss]

r4zen, on 05 February 2018 - 04:14 PM, said:

There are comparatively few players of this game who can focus their fire on a single component. The arbitrary 500 damage number is just that - arbitrary. Most pilots spread the hell out of their damage - 350 dmg+ per kill or KMDD is common.

Are you referring to FP drops or QP drops? No one should hate on a medium doing 300 damage without LRMs in a QP drop. A pilot who rolls 4 mechs and does 300 damage in an FP drop though...that's pitiful.

I was referring to QP in my original post. Indeed I didn't know there was a difference in drop-loadout between the two. The experiences I've made first-hand were in QP. The ones I read was in the General forum. I assumed they referred to QP.

I did make the provision of "ideal play". It should stand to reason I know play isn't ideal. Still, there is a point to it.

The people who like to talk about high dmg-numbers does project a certain proficiency-level. That again suggest they play in teams of equally proficient players. Assuming then that combat-roles are adhered to, and not everyones role is to maximise his personal dps, rather the team's, that still leads to some averages.

If the armor+hp amount of the ideal kill-location the enemy presents you in a given QP-match is 1300, that would average the forementioned ideal 110 dmg (not accounting for crits or headshots). If half those shots are inaccuracies (ie misses), that would amount to 220 dmg to "pull your weight (on average, not accounting for role)". 1/3 330 dmg. We're still assuming you're playing with others of equal skill (which is important to the point I'm making).

If your whole, equally superbly skilled, team are making between 700 and 1500 dmg this given match for an average of say 1100 dmg, what would neccessarily entail 1 essential hit in 10 actual connections. Not to mention actual misses (and crits (and headshots)).

It then seems to me that the less damage your equally proficient team produce to procure a win, the better they are. If they crushed their opposition doing only 110 damage each, they would have played the perfect match. Perfect accurcay leading to superb kill-speeds.


If the above is correct it seems to me that high damage output is only a badge of honor if there are only a few on a team acieving it, simply showing that there are players of differing experience and skill in the match? Or would that be a misconception?

Edited by PoohPuss, 05 February 2018 - 05:15 PM.

[Escef]

Bombast, on 05 February 2018 - 04:27 PM, said:

If you say so.



Perhaps I poorly explained it. My rational for 500 damage is that that is the point, I believe, where it's basically impossible to not have contributed to the match. While its possible to do 300 damage (As an example) and contribute, it's also possible to do 300 damage and have it all be useless garbage damage that didn't contribute to a kill. At 500, you can't help but have messed up someones, probably two someones.

If you do 250 damage and got 2 kills, of course that's something. But if you're purely going by the damage stat and nothing else, 500 is where I think the line is.

That's kind of an odd way to state it. It's just kind of a weird metric, "if you did x damage or more than you definitely contributed, but it is easily possible to contribute and still do less damage than x".

I mean, just going over match results from my stream this past morning, there were 2 matches where only 1 person on the winning team broke 500, and several where only 1 or 2 players did.

But, yeah, damage is not the only metric for contributing. Many light or fast medium mechs run distraction and end up with very low damage totals, despite the fact that they effectively removed 2 or 3 mechs from combat for several minutes. The guy that lost all his guns early but still helped coordinate, launched a UAV, and provided ECM support until the last few seconds of the match also contributes strongly. Conversely, the StreakBoat that throws 7 alphas worth of missiles spread over 8 mechs and breaks 500 damage (that averages to around 9 damage per non-head hit location on all of those targets)? Or, the LRMboat that scores 500 damage? (Not saying LRMs are great, nor am I disparaging them.)

I've seen dedicated snipers score outrageously high damage totals, yet contribute next to nothing. And I've seen scouts that got wasted early on help people maintain battlefield awareness and do some A-level dropcalling the entire rest of the match.

Don't get me wrong, damage totals are a solid metric. But they aren't the only metric. Unfortunately, it's also one of the few that can be easily quantified. All of the others are incredibly difficult to put numbers on.