37 replies to this topic

[process]

TELEFORCE, on 07 February 2018 - 03:55 AM, said:

Treat all 'mechs with single heatsinks in the engine as if they're all doubles. That would solve a lot of problems with stock 'mechs. Why PGI hasn't pursued this idea is beyond me.

I agree completely. This is the biggest cause for the disparity between single and double heatsinks in-game.

If we presuppose that doubles aren't supposed to be a necessary upgrade, then making those initial 10 engine heatsinks doubles means the exchange between singles an doubles is merely one of weight vs crit space. Then we talk about what values they should have to make the exchange viable. Maybe singles aren't as optimized as doubles, but they would help crit-starved assaults and other niche builds.

[R Valentine]

New heat sink idea: remove consumables. Put in coolant pods that cost weight and critical space. Outrageous, I know.

[Metus regem]

Kiran Yagami, on 07 February 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

New heat sink idea: remove consumables. Put in coolant pods that cost weight and critical space. Outrageous, I know.

Coolant Pods

Quote

Virtually a self-contained emergency Coolant Truck, the Coolant Pod contain a reserve of compressed freon which can be flushed directly into the attached 'Mechs coolant system, boosting the effectiveness of each Single heat sinks by 100% and each Double Heat Sinks by 50% for 10 seconds.

The experimental coolant pods are under development among all the Inner Sphere and Clans factions, examples produced by the NAIS "Project Power Flush" are functionally identical to prototypes developed by the Scientist Castes on the Clan Homeworlds, but all have been so far unable to overcome the disadvantages of what makes them work so well and so fast: pressurized coolant.

Coolant pods are highly susceptible to weapon fire, a fully pressurized pod will rupture and cause internal damage in the same manner of an ammunition explosion if struck. To avoid over-pressurizing and damaging the coolant systems of the equipped 'Mech, for safety reasons only one pod can be engaged at a time, though multiple pods can be carried. The violent release of coolant is damaging enough to the strained cooling systems of BattleMechs, the fragile modular coolant systems aboard OmniMechs consistently fail under the strain despite years of research by the Clans.

Game Rules

Each coolant pod weighs one ton and takes up one critical spot. For each turn a coolant pod is active, each heat sink (no matter if single or double) dissipates 1 extra heat point. Only one pod may be used per turn. If a full/unusued pod is struck, the pod causes internal damage (Unbound/Tactical Handbook = 20 point, Maximum Tech/Tactical Operations = 10 points) just like an ammunition explosion.

[MechaBattler]

So 2 compact heatsinks would be 1 slot, 3 tons, for twice the dissipation of a single? Would this not be a buff for energy boat assaults?

[ROSS-128]

MechaBattler, on 07 February 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

So 2 compact heatsinks would be 1 slot, 3 tons, for twice the dissipation of a single? Would this not be a buff for energy boat assaults?

Not with the TT rules, no, because the engine cooling for compact heatsinks in the TT rules is 10.

This means you need 15 tons of compact heatsinks just to get the same cooling as a DHS mech with zero heatsinks. 15 tons can take a 250 standard engine up to a 300 standard, give you two more slots for crit-free DHS, and even after installing those two more DHS you would still have tonnage leftover. That's how bad compact heatsinks are.

If you find yourself asking whether you should use SHS or CHS to free up crits for endo, or run DHS without endo, the answer is to run DHS without endo. The SHS and CHS will use up far more tonnage than the endo frees up long before they even reach the cooling that the DHS engine provides for free.

If you equalize engine cooling then SHS and DHS might be a somewhat fair tradeoff between crits and tonnage. But CHS would still be garbage, because no Inner Sphere mech will ever have enough spare weight to make them worth it. Except maybe the Orca.

Did I mention enough times that having no heatsinks at all will typically give you better cooling than having compact heatsinks?

[MechaBattler]

Why would they add it then? Did it see any use in TT? D:

[Khobai]

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Why should they do that without doing that for the clan dhs as well?

because IS DHS take up 3 crit slots

and C DHS only take up 2 crit slots

so IS DHS should be better than C DHS, so just make IS DHS into true doubles



compare a clan energy boat with an IS energy boat for example, based on the number of heatsinks they can take:

clan laser boat with 25 DHS = 41 dissipation

IS laser boat with 19 DHS = 38 dissipation + 5%-10% heat reduction quirk a lot of IS mechs have = 39.9-41.8 dissipation

also factor in the weaker heatgen quirks for clans

that change would largely balance the heat disparity between IS vs Clan

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2018 - 11:59 AM.

[Kanil]

MechaBattler, on 07 February 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

Why would they add it then? Did it see any use in TT? D:

They were super bad in TT, but they don't have to be bad in MWO.

I mean, I don't think adding them is a priority or anything, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't be both added and useful with the correct numbers. Fixing SHS first would probably be a better start point, though.

[ROSS-128]

MechaBattler, on 07 February 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

Why would they add it then? Did it see any use in TT? D:

That's pretty much why I said that if they did add them, they'd have to completely overhaul them or basically recycle the name for a completely new piece of gear.

[process]

Khobai, on 07 February 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

because IS DHS take up 3 crit slots

and C DHS only take up 2 crit slots

so IS DHS should be better than C DHS, so just make IS DHS into true doubles

that change would largely balance the heat disparity between IS vs Clan

Unless you have mixtech in mind, you can't/don't need to compare IS DHS to cDHS. They live in separate ecosystems. The cDHS are better because they have more heat to deal with.

[Khobai]

Quote

Unless you have mixtech in mind, you can't/don't need to compare IS DHS to cDHS. They live in separate ecosystems. The cDHS are better because they have more heat to deal with.

IS-DHS should be better than C-DHS because IS-DHS cost more

clan mechs generate more heat, thats true, but clan mechs also do more dps than IS mechs.

there is nothing saying clans cant reduce their dps to also reduce their heat. so clans being able to do more dps than IS at the expense of more heat is only ever an advantage for clans. its not a disadvantage. so why should clans get rewarded with better DHS for that?

IS pays more for their DHS so their DHS should be better. proper balance is based on cost vs reward. the higher the cost the higher the reward. So all IS DHS should be double heatsinks.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2018 - 12:10 PM.

[process]

Khobai, on 07 February 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

IS-DHS should be better than C-DHS because IS-DHS cost more

clan mechs generate more heat, thats true, but clan mechs also do more dps than IS mechs.

there is nothing saying clans cant reduce their dps to also reduce their heat. so clans being able to do more dps than IS at the expense of more heat is only ever an advantage for clans. its not a disadvantage. so why should clans get rewarded with better DHS for that?

IS pays more for their DHS so their DHS should be better. proper balance is based on cost vs reward. the higher the cost the higher the reward. So all IS DHS should be double heatsinks.

I don't see it as Clans being rewarded, rather, all the benefits of a smaller cDHS are offset by the fact that Clan mechs need more of them. If Clans tech is allowing for OP DPS, then I see that as a matter of individual weapon damage, heat, cooldown, duration, etc. Just as 12-18 DHS should be adequate for most IS mechs, you average Clan mechs is probably going to need 16-22 cDHS minimum to be effective.

Edited by process, 07 February 2018 - 02:08 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

process, on 07 February 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

I don't see it as Clans being rewarded, rather, all the benefits of a smaller cDHS are offset by the fact that Clan mechs need more of them. If Clans tech is allowing for OP DPS, then I see that as a matter of individual weapon damage, heat, cooldown, duration, etc. Just as 12-18 DHS should be adequate for most IS mechs, you average Clan mechs is probably going to need 16-22 cDHS minimum to be effective.

Clans do need more of them, but the smallness and lightness allows them to over-compensate while still retaining the advantages of longer range, higher damage, and higher DPS in most cases. Most especially laser vomit.

To get almost bang-on equivalent dissipation for expected builds, external isDHS would need to be 0.25 dissipation.

[process]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 February 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Clans do need more of them, but the smallness and lightness allows them to over-compensate while still retaining the advantages of longer range, higher damage, and higher DPS in most cases. Most especially laser vomit.

To get almost bang-on equivalent dissipation for expected builds, external isDHS would need to be 0.25 dissipation.

Is that across the board, or limited to a select few weapon systems? In other words, is it really a systemic problem that needs to be addressed at a heat mechanics level, or is it better address to specific weapon values?

[Lozruet Gravemind]

ROSS-128, on 06 February 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

Well I don't know about spines, but if they add laser heatsinks then clan laser vomit mechs would be able to throw the best raves.

We already do have Laser Heatsinks. If I remember correctly the Night Gyr has Laser Heatsinks in game. They reflect this by the NGR not getting any benefit, but also not being affected, by environmental heat. So 10 DHS on the NGR have the same capacity and cooling as 10 DHS on the Madcate, but it also doesnt get any additional heat on Terrible Therma or Caustic and no additional cooling on Frozen or Polar.

[Y E O N N E]

process, on 07 February 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

Is that across the board, or limited to a select few weapon systems? In other words, is it really a systemic problem that needs to be addressed at a heat mechanics level, or is it better address to specific weapon values?

It's across the board.

It's also indirectly hurting Clan Lights, because PGI has to keep nerfing the weapons they would use because theu run so cold and with such high output on bigger 'Mechs that the necessary changes to give the IS weapons a chance up there render them useless on Lights.

[ROSS-128]

process, on 07 February 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

Is that across the board, or limited to a select few weapon systems? In other words, is it really a systemic problem that needs to be addressed at a heat mechanics level, or is it better address to specific weapon values?

It's across the board. Clan lasers are actually the only weapon system that runs hotter at all: Clan Gauss, ACs, missiles, and PPCs actually have the exact same heatgen as their IS counterparts while being lighter and smaller. You're just not seeing those systems as much because the lasers also get higher damage as icing on the cake.

You can try it for yourself, take any IIC mech that has an IS variant with similar hardpoints, and try to give them similar builds. The IIC mech will likely have higher alpha, more DPS, a better heat ratio, be faster, have more range, and have more armor than its IS counterpart. Before quirks at least.

Quirks are basically the only thing that even starts to close that gap right now, and only when great quirks, great geometry, and great hardpoints all combine onto a single mech.

[Khobai]

Quote

I don't see it as Clans being rewarded, rather, all the benefits of a smaller cDHS are offset by the fact that Clan mechs need more of them.

nope. they dont need more DHS to match IS for dps. Clans only need more DHS when they want to do more dps than IS. clans being able to do more dps than IS for more heat is only ever an advantage for clans.

for example:

because the ghost heat is the same for both clans and IS:

clans can fire 6 CERML for 42 damage

IS can only fire 6 ISERML for 30 damage

when clans fire all their weapons they generate more heat than IS but they also do more damage

but theres no rule that says clans cant only fire 4 lasers. they dont have to always fire 6.

the ability to spend extra heat to do 42 damage instead of only 30 is purely optional and only ever an advantage for clans over IS.

Quote

Clan lasers are actually the only weapon system that runs hotter at all

they run hotter because they do more dps though (and more range which also translates to more dps when firing beyond optimum range)

clans can always choose to slow their dps to reduce their heat output, so its not like clans are forced to run hotter, its a choice.

but IS cant choose to increase their dps to clan level dps at the cost of extra heat. IS never has that choice.

the ability to squeeze out extra dps for extra heat is purely an advantage for clans. there is no disadvantage there.

clan mechs run hotter by choice to outdps IS. but they dont have to run hotter if they choose not to.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2018 - 04:11 PM.