22 replies to this topic

[Brain Cancer]

That is, where's the tech that makes X weapon type suffer on the battlefield if you over-rely on it?

Missiles generally have things like AMS or ECM to deal with.

But that's it.

Reflective armor is timeline-OK at this point, and a staple of MechWarrior games past as it showed up in MW4. Sadly, ballistic-reinforced isn't up there yet for ballistic weapons, and tabletop reactive armor is nasty only against missiles and artillery. We're also due for hardened armor, but that's more a "I want to maximize defense in general" choice rather than a situational one.

But this one addition could singlehandedly twist the meta, simply by making laservomit less efficient depending on the target. It'd also mess with PPCs, which would mitigate PPC/Gauss to some level as well (not that the GH thing doesn't hose that, but...).

[Bombast]

The problem with armor types is they're basically coin tosses - Just a gamble at what's going to hit you the most. They also don't really give feedback to the person shooting at you, so it would probably be frustrating trying to figure out whats going on, damage wise.

Not a good addition, in my opinion. Except maybe as quirks for certain chassis, like the Night Gyr's laser heat sinks. But that is another discussion with a lot of pros and cons.

[LordNothing]

narc is probibly the worst situational weapon there is. it only helps out locking weapons, and i guess to transmit the mech's location. you can be anything between the most useful player in the game to the most gimped and thats a coin toss. tag too, but most players use that for their own targeting where narc is used mostly by people who dont carry missiles of their own so that makes it situational.

weapons like streaks and machine guns, brawling weapons or ranged weapons are usually still somewhat useful when they aren't facing optimal targets for those weapons, situations to use machine guns will always present themselves if you can stay alive into late game and brawls happen eventually.

lerms and atms usually fall victim to direct counters and tactics. they usually do get used but intermittently enough that it hurts your damage output. when i do use lerms, and thats rare, its usually on a mixed build where missiles are matched by backups. you can run these builds a little hotter than pure boats/vomit so long as you stick to one system or the other. but its totally amazing to see what a coordinated unit can do with a bunch of lerm boats and a few narc lights.

[Kanil]

Bombast, on 07 February 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

The problem with armor types is they're basically coin tosses - Just a gamble at what's going to hit you the most.

Right now, you can probably guess that you're going to get hit with lasers a lot, so reflective probably isn't that much of a gamble. Anti-ballistic armor would have been a pretty safe bet after the Kodiak dropped, as another example.

Seems like it could be a decent way to blunt the sharpest end of the meta, should you get tired of waiting for PGI to do it for you.

[PocketYoda]

Glitter boy armor incoming?

Edited by Samial, 07 February 2018 - 09:21 PM.

[Knuckles OTool]

Can I just duct tape a mirror to the front of my mech to reflect all this laser spray? Most useful bolt-on ever.

[ramp4ge]

Knuckles OTool, on 08 February 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

Can I just duct tape a mirror to the front of my mech to reflect all this laser spray? Most useful bolt-on ever.

I usually just use a convenient rock or building. Buildings and rocks are the ultimate anti-laser armor.

[process]

I don't think we should layer on yet another set of tech when the base mechanics haven't been resolved. I can't say I'd be any happier if the meta just flip-flopped between lasers and reflective armor + ballstics or missiles.

AMS makes sense because a lot of what it deals with is mitigating homing missiles. Frankly I view it as a bonus that it also helps with unguided missiles too.

[Khobai]

adding tech like reflective armor and reactive armor would force people to rely less on single type damage and bring mixed loadouts

that would be better for the game overall

but youd have to resolve the problem of omnimechs not being able to use reflective armor/reactive armor or omnimechs would become obsolete overnight

[Tordin]

Bombast, on 07 February 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

The problem with armor types is they're basically coin tosses - Just a gamble at what's going to hit you the most. They also don't really give feedback to the person shooting at you, so it would probably be frustrating trying to figure out whats going on, damage wise.

Not a good addition, in my opinion. Except maybe as quirks for certain chassis, like the Night Gyr's laser heat sinks. But that is another discussion with a lot of pros and cons.

Wasnt the Night Gyrs laser heat sinks, make it glow a little when getting hot? It would be unique and yeah, teach trigger happy energy lovers to keep the heat low or turning their mech into a glowing target practice.

I would like to see Reflective ( vs energy ) and Reactive ( vs ballistics, missiles) .
To differenciate on what kind of armor you hit, different colors on particle effects could be a thing and for the pilot, his/ her mech could have a different colored hue for the paper doll OR a different colored armor outline for the doll at least.

Standard armor, ferro fibrous gives off standard effects, particles when hitting/ getting hit, yellowish.
Reflective could give off bluish and reactive redish coloration on the same effects, particles.

But how about PPC, will it lose dmg, effect on both armor types? Since its enegy based but also have particles acting like a physical bolt.

Just my thoughts.

[Metus regem]

Samial, on 07 February 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Glitter boy armor incoming?

It's called Laser Reflective Armour

Half damage from lasers, but double damage from AC/s and missiles...

Also still considered experimental till the Jihad era....

Tordin, on 08 February 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

But how about PPC, will it lose dmg, effect on both armor types? Since its enegy based but also have particles acting like a physical bolt.

The PPC is in a special spot, as the only thing that messes with it's ability to damage a target is the Blue Shield Partical Feild Damper, so the PPC is best all around weapon system.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

ramp4ge, on 08 February 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

I usually just use a convenient rock or building. Buildings and rocks are the ultimate anti-laser armor.

MWO logic, can cut through battle'mech armor = can't cut through a tree.

[Metus regem]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

adding tech like reflective armor and reactive armor would force people to rely less on single type damage and bring mixed loadouts

that would be better for the game overall

but youd have to resolve the problem of omnimechs not being able to use reflective armor/reactive armor or omnimechs would become obsolete overnight

To be fair, with how MWO treats Omni's and Battlemechs, Omni's are sadly mostly obsolete, due to the lack of customization that can be found on Battlemechs...

I wish there was a way for MWO to properly model the logistical advantage of Omni's... I've been a proponent of allowing Omni's to save 3-ish load-outs and hot swap between them depending on the mission profile that gets picked...

Got Skirmish Polar? Take that long range hot build!
Got Rivercity escort? Take that cooler running brawler build!

[Khobai]

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The problem with armor types is they're basically coin tosses - Just a gamble at what's going to hit you the most.

thats true. but the benefit doesnt come from playing the defensive lottery.

the benefit is that it forces other players to diversify their builds and not just rely on one damage type.

so instead of taking only lasers they now have to take lasers and srms and/or autocannon just to deal with someone with reflective armor

it directly counters boating. And boating being superior to mixed loadouts has always been one of the biggest problems in this game.

Quote

To be fair, with how MWO treats Omni's and Battlemechs, Omni's are sadly mostly obsolete, due to the lack of customization that can be found on Battlemechs...

I wish there was a way for MWO to properly model the logistical advantage of Omni's... I've been a proponent of allowing Omni's to save 3-ish load-outs and hot swap between them depending on the mission profile that gets picked...

Ive suggested giving omnimechs 1-2 omnihardpoints each (maybe more depending on the omnimech). Basically hardpoints that can take any type of weapon. As a way of making the lesser used omnipods more appealing.

Its not much but its something.

And to make reflective/reactive armor work for omnimechs youd have to at least unlock the armor equipment slot for omnimechs and let them choose between std/ferro/reflective/reactive armor, etc...

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 01:57 PM.

[Metus regem]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

thats true. but the benefit doesnt come from playing the defensive lottery.

the benefit is that it forces players to diversify their builds and not just rely on one damage type.

so instead of taking only lasers they now have to take lasers and srms and/or autocannon just to deal with someone with reflective armor

it directly counters boating. And boating being superior to mixed loadouts has always been one of the biggest problems in this game.



Ive suggested giving omnimechs 1-2 omnihardpoints each. Basically hardpoints that can take any type of weapon. As a way of making the lesser used omnipods more appealing.

Its not much but its something.

But to make reflective/reactive armor work for omnimechs youd have to at least unlock the armor equipment slot for omnimechs and let them choose between std/ferro/reflective/reactive armor, etc...

Another way to do it, and one I also like is just making all Omni mech hard points, not typed, but location dependent... For example the Timber Wolf pods would look like this:

RA: 2
RT: 4
CT: 1
LT: 4
LA: 2

all of those hard points could accept any weapon combo, but players would get either small typed bounces based on load out, so if you took a set of equipment that was close to a Timber Wolf Delta you would get ERPPC quirks and SRM/SSRM quirks....

[Brain Cancer]

Bombast, on 07 February 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

The problem with armor types is they're basically coin tosses - Just a gamble at what's going to hit you the most. They also don't really give feedback to the person shooting at you, so it would probably be frustrating trying to figure out whats going on, damage wise.

They can figure it out the same way anyone else would- the fact that they're not doing a lot of damage. The best thing about defensive tech like this is that it allows players to actively deal with the meta, rather than waiting for PGI to "balance" things again. AMS honestly fills that role for missiles, but because missiles aren't meta (or fired too close to matter, SRMs), nobody mounts AMS. Yet, it's available to virtually every chassis, in some cases being able to double or even triple or quad mount.

Reflective is actually more restricted, since it's a no-go for Omnis. Sadly, I don't think there's a damage reduction option other than reflec armor for energy weapons (and counter to other statements here, reflective actually works on all energy weapons, including PPCs and the later plasma weapons). Poor Omnis in a PGI world, y'know? Then again, if broad counters become common, then Omnis benefit from "herd immunity"- that is, people having to diversify their loadouts anyway will mitigate the Omni's own lack of being able to fully contribute to said defensive options themselves. Jack of all trades, masters of none.

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Not a good addition, in my opinion. Except maybe as quirks for certain chassis, like the Night Gyr's laser heat sinks. But that is another discussion with a lot of pros and cons.

I'd think defensive boosts should be as broad as possible, actually. Otherwise, why does everyone get AMS hardpoints and how could they be effective in hosing a given weapon type? Reflective for energy, reactive for ballistic, AMS for missiles. If they're seen often enough on the battlefield, no one weapon type will be able to fully dominate.

ramp4ge, on 08 February 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

I usually just use a convenient rock or building. Buildings and rocks are the ultimate anti-laser armor.

And this is where not having properly destroyable cover messes with a lot of things. Infinite armor, zero chance of losing it.

[Khobai]

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They can figure it out the same way anyone else would- the fact that they're not doing a lot of damage

well to be fair it should be listed in the detailed sensor info too

if someone has reflective armor it should tell you there

Quote

And this is where not having properly destroyable cover messes with a lot of things. Infinite armor, zero chance of losing it.

yes

and lrms are useless because they cant blow up buildings and rocks

those things wouldnt stop a missile barrage in real life

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 03:04 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

well to be fair it should be listed in the detailed sensor info too

if someone has reflective armor it should tell you there

Ideally you should be able to tell what their armor is just by the aesthetic of their mech. Reflective/glazed armor for example would probably be very shiny and chromatic if we take its name literally.

Reactive armor could add external plates on the outside of the hull like this:


Etc.

[ROSS-128]

Well, there was the Blue Shield system that cuts PPC damage in half. It was a piece of mounted equipment like ECM. Yes, it stacked with reflec armor for 1/4 damage if for some reason you REALLY had a burning hatred for PPCs in particular.

Also, reactive armor didn't provide bonuses vs ballistics, only "explosive damage", ie missiles and arty. Interestingly reflec armor wasn't weak against missiles or ballistics either, standard protection against those. What it was weak to was melee, falling, and AoE damage, which meant artillery but not missiles.

Ballistic-reinforced armor protected against ballistics, but it wasn't introduced until 3130 or something like that.

[Khobai]

ballistic weapons (other than gauss) were terrible in battletech, thats why they didnt initially get an armor type that countered them. I think they did later on but that was after some more decent ballistic weapons were added to the game.

but reactive armor should probably counter ballistics in MWO

and im not sure reactive armor should counter missiles. missiles are bad enough as is. we dont need less reasons to use them.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 03:28 PM.