1125 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Stinger554, on 27 February 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

But that's not how GH works.... If a CERML is in the LL GH group a HML or a MPL will not be cause GH when fired with LLs..... if the HLL gets put into the ML group then it will GH with MLs but not with LL and other LLs like CERLL still won't GH with MLs.. Which is why I was curious if it's possible to have HLL be in both LL and ML group.

While not apparent coding that PGI has, because that's not how LPPCs interact (they get treated as another bigger PPC for ghost heat purposes in ANY combination of bigger PPCs). Regardless, if PGI were to code it in then you're just picking winners and losers in the Laser Vomit Alpha war. It wouldn't go away, the weapon combination would just change. It's been the same way for several years now . . . the weapon groups are just changing based on what finagled Ghost Heat weapon combination is most desirable. You can't just pick winners and losers like that in the mess. You need an actual solution that looks at all weapons available.

Unified Ghost Heat across all weapons, as a potential solution, I'm not against. It's just Energy Draw in another form; and I wasn't against Energy Draw (I just wanted PGI to tune it and implement it better). However, at least Energy Draw had a UI element in the Mech Lab and matches that actively showed you your limits and heat penalties . . . while Ghost Heat just as a tiny Mech Lab element that says "Firing combination XYZ incurs additional heat," without telling you how much or breaking down specifics.

Regardless, we do need a solution. "Consensus" will probably turn into PGI implementing something whether we like it or not because the community obviously cannot come to any real "consensus" on said Alpha problem.

Stinger554, on 27 February 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

Yeah I know but here's the thing energy draw is not likely to come back so we are kinda forced to manage GH with a similar principle to compensate. Yes it's harder and more tedious to manage but that was PGI's choice to make when they straight dropped ED like it was a hot potato.

Actually, per Russ, we will revisit Energy Draw eventually -or something similar- in the future. PGI is currently focused on their Solaris development for MWO. Don't be surprised if it -or something similar- does come back.

[Khobai]

Quote

Therefore, linking any type of ML with any type of LL bridges the gap in the weapon groups, and if LLs were fired with MLs then all the lasers would be treated as LL for the purposes of GH penalty.

If you put the HLL in both the ML and LL groups it should just work like an
OR statement

ghost heat triggers if HLL+ML > 2 -OR- ghost heat triggers if HLL+LL > 2

but it shouldnt link all LL with all ML. only the HLL.

Edited by Khobai, 27 February 2018 - 07:46 PM.

[Sereglach]

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

If you put the HLL in both the ML and LL groups it should just work like an
OR statement

ghost heat triggers if HLL+ML > 2 -OR- ghost heat triggers if HLL+LL > 2

but it shouldnt link all LL with all ML. only the HLL.

Again, PGI has not shown the capability for Ghost Heat to do this. Besides, what happens with 1 CHLL + 1 CERLL + 1 CERML? I'll tell you what . . . the same thing that happens when you put 1 LPPC + 1 PPC + 1 HPPC . . . they're all treated as the worst penalty possible. Therefore, it DOES put all the potential weapons of a "group" together through the link. We've already seen through PGI that what you intend/want cannot be done in the way you want it.

In addition, all you're doing is picking winners and losers in the Ghost Heat weapons groupings; and people will simply adjust to the next-biggest Alpha. That's not even a remotely reasonable way to address the problems and try to address weapons balance. You have to look at the big picture of the game; and not just adjusting the current meta to what people KNOW the next meta will be without question . . . especially when that meta isn't even addressing the long-standing problem of Laser Vomit.

Laser Vomit has been a problem for years. Even if PGI could (and that's a BIG IF) do what you want, that in no way deals with the ever growing problem of Laser Vomit in the game; and doesn't address game balance in even remotely the way the OP of this thread attempts to do so. They're looking at global weapon balance and not just a single weapon combination . . . the same way PGI will be doing any balance adjustments.

[Stinger554]

Sereglach, on 27 February 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

While not apparent coding that PGI has, because that's not how LPPCs interact (they get treated as another bigger PPC for ghost heat purposes in ANY combination of bigger PPCs).

Okay that's because LPPCs are inside the PPC GH group(they'll also trigger with gauss for the same reason). IE They will trigger GH with any PPCs which follows the biggest penalty and smallest limit. Which is exactly what I said. It's just like how CLPL and CERLL are inside the same group and will trigger GH when fired together.

What I'm saying/suggesting would prevent CERLL from triggering GH with CERML as the CERLL isn't part of the GH linked group for CERMLs. The CHLL however would trigger GH with the CERML because it would be inside the Medium Laser GH linked group.

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

If you put the HLL in both the ML and LL groups it should just work like an
OR statement

ghost heat triggers if HLL+ML > 2 -OR- ghost heat triggers if HLL+LL > 2

but it shouldnt link all LL with all ML. only the HLL.

That's what I think as well. Which is why I was asking if it's possible to have a weapon be a part of two GH groups.

Edited by Stinger554, 28 February 2018 - 12:14 PM.

[Stinger554]

Sereglach, on 27 February 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

Again, PGI has not shown the capability for Ghost Heat to do this. Besides, what happens with 1 CHLL + 1 CERLL + 1 CERML? I'll tell you what . . . the same thing that happens when you put 1 LPPC + 1 PPC + 1 HPPC . . . they're all treated as the worst penalty possible.

With that weapon combination I don't think it would trigger GH if CHLL is apart of the Medium laser GH group and the Large Laser GH group because in both groups the number doesn't exceed two. IE 1 CHLL + 1 CERLL = 2 and 1 CHLL + 1 CERML = 2 which wouldn't trigger ghost heat. CERML doesn't count for large laser GH group and CERLL doesn't count for medium laser GH group.

[Sereglach]

Stinger554, on 28 February 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

With that weapon combination I don't think it would trigger GH if CHLL is apart of the Medium laser GH group and the Large Laser GH group because in both groups the number doesn't exceed two. IE 1 CHLL + 1 CERLL = 2 and 1 CHLL + 1 CERML = 2 which wouldn't trigger ghost heat. CERML doesn't count for large laser GH group and CERLL doesn't count for medium laser GH  group.

Based on what we have from PGI, that's incorrect.  All we have to go off of is what they've done with PPCs. In that case, 1 CHLL + 1 CERLL + 1 CERML would generate ghost heat off of the LL group, which is the most punishing group that those weapons are part of; and because they'd be fired at the same time, they'd use said most punishing group. We currently see this happen when 1 PPC + 1 HPPC + 1 LPPC are all fired together.

Regardless, again, you can't just pick winners and losers in the Ghost Heat system and NOT expect people to just game it for the next biggest Alpha possible.  Also, it DOESN'T address the inherent balance problems and massive Laser Vomit Alphas that the game is currently facing.  I like how that part of the debate keeps getting ignored . . . like it'll just go away . . . and instead believe this magic -currently incapable- Ghost Heat "fix" is just going to solve Laser Vomit.

[Stinger554]

Sereglach, on 28 February 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

Based on what we have from PGI, that's incorrect. All we have to go off of is what they've done with PPCs. In that case, 1 CHLL + 1 CERLL + 1 CERML would generate ghost heat off of the LL group, which is the most punishing group that those weapons are part of; and because they'd be fired at the same time, they'd use said most punishing group. We currently see this happen when 1 PPC + 1 HPPC + 1 LPPC are all fired together.

Did you not read what I put? I explained why it wouldn't and you just go nope your wrong cause I say so?????? Are you slow?

Whatever I'm done speaking to a brick wall.

[Sereglach]

Stinger554, on 28 February 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

Did you not read what I put? I explained why it wouldn't and you just go nope your wrong cause I say so?????? Are you slow?

Whatever I'm done speaking to a brick wall.

I'm saying that what we have from PGI says what you want isn't possible in the current scheme of things; and yet you've pressed the issue, despite the evidence otherwise, several times now. Who is really the brick wall?

Regardless, if you're done arguing the point of something that won't even address the actual balance problems of the game at hand, and instead just tries to apply selective "Ghost Heat Winners" then fine. I'd rather work on addressing real balance problems, anyway.

[Tarogato]

Stinger554, on 28 February 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

Did you not read what I put? I explained why it wouldn't and you just go nope your wrong cause I say so?????? Are you slow?

Whatever I'm done speaking to a brick wall.

Sereglach, on 28 February 2018 - 03:11 PM, said:

I'm saying that what we have from PGI says what you want isn't possible in the current scheme of things; and yet you've pressed the issue, despite the evidence otherwise, several times now. Who is really the brick wall?

Regardless, if you're done arguing the point of something that won't even address the actual balance problems of the game at hand, and instead just tries to apply selective "Ghost Heat Winners" then fine. I'd rather work on addressing real balance problems, anyway.

Okay, because bbforums are a terrible format for having discussions, I'm having a hard time tracing back what you guys are even arguing about.

What is the thing the somebody wants that somebody thinks doesn't work?

[Sereglach]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

Okay, because bbforums are a terrible format for having discussions, I'm having a hard time tracing back what you guys are even arguing about.

What is the thing the somebody wants that somebody thinks doesn't work?

From what we have from PGI, you cannot make Ghost Heat exceptions that selectively span multiple groups and not have them interact.

Currently, using PPCs as the example, LPPC Ghost Heat is 3, all others are 2. Hoewever, if you fire 1 LPPC, 1 PPC, and 1 HPPC, it uses the most punishing Ghost Heat metric available, which would be the overall PPC group of 2.

Stinger wants to link the CERML and CHLL groups together, which -through what we have from PGI- would link the ML and LL Ghost Heat groups (as seen with the LPPC and PPC groups). Therefore, whatever combination of weapons that you have through the LL or ML groups will use the most punishing Ghost Heat group available. 1 CERML + 2 CHLL would generate the Ghost heat of 3 LL, just as 1 CERML + 1 CHLL + 1 CLPL would also generate the heat of 3 LL.

PGI's Ghost Heat system, from what we've seen, can't make mutually exclusive and/or "selective" mixed groups of weapons. Which, regardless if their coding ability would allow it to be added, wouldn't even address the real problems of weapon balance in the game. The meta would just automatically shift to the next largest Alpha of Laser Vomit available. That in no way addresses the Laser Vomit meta problem that has been steadily getting worse for years.

Edited by Sereglach, 28 February 2018 - 03:38 PM.

[Tarogato]

Sereglach, on 28 February 2018 - 03:37 PM, said:

Stinger wants to link the CERML and CHLL groups together,

So,

cHLL ----- heatPenaltyID="10"
cERLL---- heatPenaltyID="10"
cLPL ----- heatPenaltyID="10"


The result of this would be
2x cHLL = fine
6x cERML = fine
1x cHLL + 1x cERML = fine

1x cHLL + 2x cERML = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x cERML = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x any micro laser = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x any small laser = ghost heat
1x cHLL + 1x cLPL + 1x literally any other laser = ghost heat

Edited by Tarogato, 28 February 2018 - 04:02 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

So,

cHLL ----- heatPenaltyID="10"


The result of this would be

2x cHLL = fine
6x cERML = fine
1x cHLL + 1x cERML = fine
2x cLPL + 6x cERML = fine
2x cERLL + 6x cERML = fine

1x cHLL + 2x cERML = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x cERML = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x any micro laser = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x any small laser = ghost heat

Wait, so the system sees 1 ML = 1 LL when there's an LL in the mix?

Couldn't just PGI code that 3 ML = 2 HML = 1 LL like some sort of weighted GH value?

[Sereglach]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

So,

cHLL ----- heatPenaltyID="10"


The result of this would be

2x cHLL = fine
6x cERML = fine
1x cHLL + 1x cERML = fine
2x cLPL + 6x cERML = fine
2x cERLL + 6x cERML = fine

1x cHLL + 2x cERML = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x cERML = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x any micro laser = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x any small laser = ghost heat

Except the CHLL is also in the LL Group, so 1x CHLL + 1xAny other LL + 1x CERML would also equal ghost heat, because what we have from PGI shows that Ghost Heat always gravitates towards the most punishing Ghost Heat groups possible to generate the Ghost Heat.

Therefore 2x CLPL + 6x CERML would not be fine, based on what we have from PGI through the game right now to go off of, because their groups would be linked by connecting CERML to the LL group.

Regardless, it wouldn't address the Laser Vomit problem we've had for years, because Laser Vomit was a problem even before we had the CHLL.

The6thMessenger, on 28 February 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

Wait, so the system sees 1 ML = 1 LL when there's an LL in the mix?

Couldn't just PGI code that 3 ML = 2 HML = 1 LL like some sort of weighted GH value?

Not with what we have from PGI's current Ghost Heat mechanics. Also, even if they could code it in, how does that actually address the overall balance problems of the game? At that point you're just moving towards Energy Draw, anyway, by linking all the weapons together in a Ghost Heat "weighting" system; and PGI could much more easily just go back to implementing Energy Draw.

[Tarogato]

Sereglach, on 28 February 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

Except the CHLL is also in the LL Group, so 1x CHLL + 1xAny other LL + 1x CERML would also equal ghost heat, because what we have from PGI shows that Ghost Heat always gravitates towards the most punishing Ghost Heat groups possible to generate the Ghost Heat.

Therefore 2x CLPL + 6x CERML would not be fine, based on what we have from PGI through the game right now to go off of, because their groups would be linked by connecting CERML to the LL group.

Regardless, it wouldn't address the Laser Vomit problem we've had for years, because Laser Vomit was a problem even before we had the CHLL.

Ah, [Redacted], you're right. So this would be removing heatPenaltyID="3" from the larges, replacing them all with "10". Let me correct my post.

Edited by draiocht, 28 February 2018 - 08:28 PM.
inappropriate language

[The6thMessenger]

Sereglach, on 28 February 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

Not with what we have from PGI's current Ghost Heat mechanics. Also, even if they could code it in, how does that actually address the overall balance problems of the game? At that point you're just moving towards Energy Draw, anyway, by linking all the weapons together in a Ghost Heat "weighting" system; and PGI could much more easily just go back to implementing Energy Draw.

Ugh....

I was just commenting on the system.

[Tarogato]

The6thMessenger, on 28 February 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

Wait, so the system sees 1 ML = 1 LL when there's an LL in the mix?

Yes.

Just like when you fire 2x LPPC + 1x HPPC, you get the ghost heat penalty of 3x HPPC.

Quote

Couldn't just PGI code that 3 ML = 2 HML = 1 LL like some sort of weighted GH value?

No. That's what the Energy Draw system was for.

[Sereglach]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Ah, [Redacted], you're right. So this would be removing heatPenaltyID="3" from the larges, replacing them all with "10". Let me correct my post.

Right, which doesn't mystically fix Laser Vomit . . . unless you don't want any clan LL fired with ML in groups of more than 2 weapons at a time.

Which, again, at that point, then you're just pushing towards an Energy Draw system to limit Alphas, anyway, because it's simpler than trying to communicate to the player all the different "layers" of Ghost Heat mechanics (if PGI could even code that into their Ghost Heat system).

Edited by draiocht, 28 February 2018 - 08:29 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Tarogato]

Sereglach, on 28 February 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

Right, which doesn't mystically fix Laser Vomit . . . unless you don't want any clan LL fired with ML in groups of more than 2 weapons at a time.

Which, again, at that point, then you're just pushing towards an Energy Draw system to limit Alphas, anyway, because it's simpler than trying to communicate to the player all the different "layers" of Ghost Heat mechanics (if PGI could even code that into their Ghost Heat system).

This is starting to go off topic... but [Redacted].


My problem with energy draw though, it is that it essentially does this:

Every Single Weapon In The Game --------------- heatPenaltyID="1"



I might describe the system like this:

Every weapon in the game can generate ghost heat with every other weapon in the game. But only if the combined arbitrary extraneous "power draw" score exceeds the arbitrarily allotted "power draw" capacity.

The "power draw" values and capacity have nothing to do with damage or heat capacity, though they are roughly correlated. It's a separate system that behaves like an inverse to the heat system, while working simultaneously alongside it to deliver additional heat penalties.


Because every weapon in the game is treated as a single heat penalty ID, it no longer makes sense to diversify builds into separate types of weapons. For instance, getting around ghost heat meant you mounted 4x SRM + LBX. But with power draw, you still get ghost heat by firing 4x SRM + LBX, just the same as you might with 5x SRM. So it's better to not waste all of your tonnage on the heavy LBX, and just mount more lighter SRMs and heatsinks and split-fire them anyways. Similar with laservomit. No point in mounting the high-tonnage large lasers if they're going to generate ghost heat anyways. Just stack more efficient medium lasers and heatsinks instead, and split your shots in two since alphavomit is no longer possible anyways.
∴ Power draw encourages boating.

Edited by draiocht, 28 February 2018 - 08:29 PM.
inappropriate language

[Sereglach]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

This is starting to go off topic... but [Redacted].


My problem with energy draw though, it is that it essentially does this:


Every Single Weapon In The Game --------------- heatPenaltyID="1"

Every weapon in the game can generate ghost heat with every other weapon in the game.

But only if the combined arbitrary extraneous "power draw" score exceeds the arbitrarily allotted "power draw" capacity.

The "power draw" values and capacity have nothing to do with damage, though they are roughly correlated. It's a separate system that behaves like an inverse to the heat system, while working simultaneously alongside it to deliver additional heat penalties.

Because every weapon in the game is treated as a single heat penalty ID, it no longer makes sense to diversity builds into separate types of weapons. For instance, getting around ghost heat meant you mounted 4x SRM + LBX. But with power draw, you still get ghost heat by firing 4x SRM + LBX, just the same as you might with 5x SRM. So it's better to not waste all of your tonnage on LBX, and just mount more SRMs and heatsinks and split-fire them anyways.

Power draw encourages boating.

While I think Energy Draw was on the right track, I don't completely agree with PGI's implementation or tuning. It could have been MUCH better than it was. However, I agree that it's a discussion for another time/place. I think people should just be aware that Russ said it -or something similar- is something he planned to revisit in the future; but at the time PGI was then focusing on the Skill Tree which was followed by Solaris. Therefore, trying to use Ghost Heat to address all the problems of the game isn't going to work for a long term solution; and trying to tune all the weapons in a vacuum isn't going to work, either.

Anyway, yeah, I'm glad you get what I'm saying about Ghost Heat penalties always seeking out the most punishing limit of linked weapons and not being able to selectively, arbitrarily, or "weight" the application of them. We need to address all the weapons as a whole, and not just one specific combination where people will just shift to the -quite obviously- next best thing.

Edited by draiocht, 28 February 2018 - 08:30 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Stinger554]

Sereglach, on 28 February 2018 - 03:37 PM, said:

Stinger wants to link the CERML and CHLL groups together,

No No I don't [Redacted].

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

So,

cHLL ----- heatPenaltyID="10"
cERLL---- heatPenaltyID="10"
cLPL ----- heatPenaltyID="10"


The result of this would be
2x cHLL = fine
6x cERML = fine
1x cHLL + 1x cERML = fine

1x cHLL + 2x cERML = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x cERML = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x any micro laser = ghost heat
2x cHLL + 1x any small laser = ghost heat
1x cHLL + 1x cLPL + 1x literally any other laser = ghost heat

I had originally asked about the possibility of having CHLL be a part of two separate GH groups. IE CHLL is a part of the medium laser ghost heat linked group and the large laser ghost heat linked group.

So 2CHLL + 1CERML would cause ghost heat, but 2ERLL + 1 CERML wouldn't cause ghost heat.

[Redacted] said that ghost heat doesn't work like that because LPPCs and PPCs are linked to same ghost heat group, which literally doesn't address one weapon system being a part of two ghost heat groups...

Edited by draiocht, 28 February 2018 - 07:44 PM.
insults