1125 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

Stinger554, on 28 February 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

IE CHLL is a part of the medium laser ghost heat linked group and the large laser ghost heat linked group.

So I think you want this,

cHLL -------- heatPenaltyID="3,10"
cERLL -------- heatPenaltyID="3,10"
cLPL -------- heatPenaltyID="3,10"


This way, the large laser family all belongs to the "large laser penalty group" (3) and also belongs to the "small/medium laser penalty group" (10).

Correct?



... and there's no point to doing that. Because it would result in the same behaviour as setting all the larges to heatPenaltyID="10".

This way, the large laser family all belong to the "large laser penalty group" (10)' and also belongs to the "small/medium laser penalty group" (10).

Stinger554, on 28 February 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

So 2CHLL + 1CERML would cause ghost heat, but 2ERLL + 1 CERML wouldn't cause ghost heat.

So what you actually want is maybe...
cHLL -------- heatPenaltyID="3"
cERLL -------- heatPenaltyID="10"
cLPL -------- heatPenaltyID="10"


So that cHLL gets ghost heat when combined with medium and small lasers.

The side effect would be that you could fire something like 2x cHLL + 2x cLPL with zero penalty.

UNLESS, you want this:
cHLL -------- heatPenaltyID="3,10"
cERLL -------- heatPenaltyID="10"
cLPL -------- heatPenaltyID="10"


So that ONLY the heavy large laser is a part of the small/medium penalty group, but it also is a part of the large laser penalty group. So what this is saying:


2x cLPL + 6x cERML ======= okay
2x cERLL + 6x cERML ====== okay
2x cHLL + 1x cERML ======= NOT okay


Why hate on ONLY the cHLL? Clan alphavomit isn't overpowered because of the heavy large laser. It's overpowered because of the heavy large laser, AND the large pulse, AND the ER large. Any one of them can be used to make a massive lolvomit build, and which one is the best combination is even up for debate, it's not widely agreed upon which is the strongest combo.


And that's assuming that it's possible to assign two separate penalty groups to one weapon. Which... should be possible if PGI left the code open-ended when they wrote it 5 years ago. But I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't, and it's thus not possible.

[FupDup]

If we did ever get a Clan ML/LL ghost heat link, I don't see any reason to exclude the ERLL and LPL regardless of whether its possible from a coding standpoint. For one, the LPL was the original offender in the laser vomit combo before the Civil War update. For two, people would shuffle their builds around to try to keep their alpha as big as possible if the ERLL/LPL got excluded. Sure it would lose a bit of alpha power, but it would still be too stronk even then.

Better to just go all the way.

[Sereglach]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

Why hate on ONLY the cHLL? Clan alphavomit isn't overpowered because of the heavy large laser. It's overpowered because of the heavy large laser, AND the large pulse, AND the ER large. Any one of them can be used to make a massive lolvomit build, and which one is the best combination is even up for debate, it's not widely agreed upon which is the strongest combo.

And that's assuming that it's possible to assign two separate penalty groups to one weapon. Which... should be possible if PGI left the code open-ended when they wrote it 5 years ago. But I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't, and it's thus not possible.

THIS! This is what I've been saying the WHOLE TIME! Going off of what we currently have in the game, it's not possible; and even IF it were possible, it doesn't actually solve the Laser Vomit problem.

[Stinger554]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

Correct?

No.

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

UNLESS, you want this:
cHLL -------- heatPenaltyID="3,10"
cERLL -------- heatPenaltyID="10"
cLPL -------- heatPenaltyID="10"


So that ONLY the heavy large laser is a part of the small/medium penalty group, but it also is a part of the large laser penalty group. So what this is saying:


2x cLPL + 6x cERML ======= okay
2x cERLL + 6x cERML ====== okay
2x cHLL + 1x cERML ======= NOT okay


Why hate on ONLY the cHLL? Clan alphavomit isn't overpowered because of the heavy large laser. It's overpowered because of the heavy large laser, AND the large pulse, AND the ER large. Any one of them can be used to make a massive lolvomit build, and which one is the best combination is even up for debate, it's not widely agreed upon which is the strongest combo.


And that's assuming that it's possible to assign two separate penalty groups to one weapon. Which... should be possible if PGI left the code open-ended when they wrote it 5 years ago. But I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't, and it's thus not possible.

This is what I was referring to; well the possibility of it anyways.

FYI it's not what I want...what I want is essentially energy draw. What I want is lasers to ghost heat at any combination that takes an alpha past 40 damage with the exception of ERLL where it's limit can stay the same.. This is slight arbitrary I just based it on PPCs' ghost heat limit of 20 damage.

So

2xHLL = 36 damage = No GH

2xHLL + 1xCERML = 43 damage = GH

6xCERML = 42 damage = GH <--- Right here is where I'm kinda iffy on the 40 damage limit maybe raise it to 42 to accommodate.

8xISML = 40 = no GH

1xHLL + 3xCERML = 39 = no GH

etc

I had originally just questioned if it was possible for a single weapon system to be in two ghost heat groups.

[Tarogato]

Stinger554, on 28 February 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

2xHLL = 36 damage = No GH

2xHLL + 1xCERML = 43 damage = GH

6xCERML = 42 damage = GH <--- Right here is where I'm kinda iffy on the 40 damage limit maybe raise it to 42 to accommodate.

8xISML = 40 = no GH

1xHLL + 3xCERML = 39 = no GH

Crap... Warning: this post became a stream of consciousness, be ware anybody who reads beyond...

I would say that these should be okay, in my opinion

2x cHLL + 3x cERML (57 damage, more than half of it being very long duration.)
1x cHLL + 6x cERML (60 damage, lots heatsinks)
_{2x cLPL + 4x cERML (48 damage, short duration)}
2x cLPL + 5x cERML (59 damage, short duration, more range)
_{2x cERLL + 4x cERML (50 damage, capable of poke)}
2x cERLL + 5x cERML (57 damage, capable of poke)

dang it, I feel like those builds should be okay, but at the same time... those are exactly the sort of high-alpha vomit builds that are precisely the problem...


Okay, still brainstorming. These alphas should be free:

6x cERML (42 damage, long duration, long recycle, hot)
2x cHLL + 2x cERML (50 damage, most of it is very long duration)
1x cHLL + 5x cERML (53 damage, lots heatsinks)
1x cLPL + 5x cERML (47 shorter duration, two less heatsinks)
2x cLPL + 4x cERML (52 damage, short duration
2x cERLL + 4x cERML (50 damage, capable of range poke)

IS should stay unchanged. For reference:

6x ML (30 damage, cold, short duration, fast recycle)
6x ERML (30 damage, cooler than clan, still short duration, rather fast recycle)
3x LPL + 6x ML (50 damage, cool, short duration, fast recycle)
3x...

****. No. IS can't have the same alpha damage as Clan, they'd just wipe clans. Clans NEED to have the larger alpha, otherwise we end up with symmetrical balance, which defeats the purpose of Clan vs IS being different.

So no...

Here's the thing.

Large clan vomit alphas... in my mind... consist of 2 large + 4 med, and bigger. THOSE are the problem with clan alphavomit. In my opinion. The fact that you can stack 2 large + 6 med... is rather inconsequential. I think if you are going to allow 2 large + 4 med, then you should also allow 2 large + 6 med, because in my opinion 2 large + 6 med isn't vastly better than 2 large + 4 med, it's just different.




More brain storming... starting over...

These alphas are allowed:

6x cERML (42 damage, long duration, long recycle, hot)
2x cHLL ( 36 damage)
2x cLPL (24 damage)
2x cERLL (22 damage)
1x cHLL + 6x cERML (60 damage)
1x cLPL + 6x cERML (54 shorter)
1x cERLL + 6x cERML (53 damage)

That might be better. But it's not possible with the present ghost heat system, from what I can see. Plus it would kill a LOT of mech builds. So I'd rather not do this either...

... I just can't imagine a world where clan can not alpha 2x cLPL + 6x cERML. Clan SHOULD be able to do that, I think that's the whole point of clan is to have the capability of dealing that alpha. Otherwise... there's no point to being clan. But that's just my opinion.

So I would just raise the burn duration on all the clan lasers. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Keep the alpha, not ruin any builds, but make it all less effective and harder to use.

You could raise the heat instead, but that doesn't hurt the alpha capability. You'd still have clan mechs that are capable of one-shotting torsos. Sure, they wouldn't stand up to a prolonged engagement, but that doesn't matter when the meta is poke from cover and delete components with plenty of time to go back to cover and cooldown.

So I would raise the duration. That DOES affect the alpha capability without removing it. And for mechs like the Adder, Cougar, Viper, Ice Ferret, etc ... all those mechs that maybe aren't so strong with these weapons... they can get duration quirks to bring it back.

Edited by Tarogato, 28 February 2018 - 08:18 PM.

[Sereglach]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

*snip*

I think duration increases would be a good way to help control some of the laser vomit. Another option (done together) would also be to push pulse lasers into an extremely distinct DPS direction that's far more drastic than they are now. That helps resolve about half of the laser vomit and turns it into its own unique option.

However, whether you liked the initial PGI attempt or not, ALL of your attempts at controlling Alphas and "ok" vomit builds just push in the direction of Energy Draw with Alpha Limits. It's worth noting that one of the whole points of the Energy Draw system was to still allow Alphas, but make them cost enough in heat that people don't want to just Laser Vomit Mega Alpha nonstop.

At this point, especially with long standing Laser Vomit problems being exacerbated by the new tech, I think it's going to be a direction that PGI starts to move in again.

Regardless, it's true that coming up with a full solution IS really hard. I think increased duration on non-pulse lasers while incrementally decreasing duration, recycle, heat, and damage on pulse lasers until they're solid DPS weapons is a solid route to take. I don't think one "catch all" or horrifically convoluted "ghost heat web" is going to cover it.

EDIT: In regards to quirks, I don't think we should do any weapons tuning that openly relies on quirks to make weapons viable by themselves. Quirks should be to help the mech, not the weapon.

Edited by Sereglach, 28 February 2018 - 08:26 PM.

[Tarogato]

Sereglach, on 28 February 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

It's worth noting that one of the whole points of the Energy Draw system was to still allow Alphas, but make them cost enough in heat that people don't want to just Laser Vomit Mega Alpha nonstop.

It's worth noting that adding enough penalty heat to make people stop laservomitmegaalphanonstop... is basically equivalent to deleting those builds from the game.

Just like happened with gaussPPC. You can still play 3x gaussPPC loadouts just fine. You can alpha them, poptart with them, albeit with a massive heat penalty, and you can split-fire them to avoid the penalty. But because the penalty is enough to discourage you from alpha'ing them all the time, they literally aren't played anymore. It has become a completely useless weapon combination.

Similarly, an Energy Draw that penalises you some amount for mega-alpha-vomiting, would more than likely kill those loadouts outright, almost like deleting them from the game entirely - the only people who would play those loadouts anymore would be the people who haven't put much thought into it and don't actually know what their doing. Everybody else will have moved on to other loadouts.

It's VERY difficult to add heat penalties to things without causing people to just jump ship entirely. More than anything in weapon balance, I feel heat penalties are very razor's edge.

Edited by Tarogato, 28 February 2018 - 08:42 PM.

[Sereglach]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 08:40 PM, said:

It's worth noting that adding enough penalty heat to make people stop laservomitmegaalphanonstop... is basically equivalent to deleting those builds from the game.

Just like happened with gaussPPC. You can still play 3x gaussPPC loadouts just fine. You can alpha them, poptart with them, albeit with a massive heat penalty, and you can split-fire them to avoid the penalty. But because the penalty is enough to discourage you from alpha'ing them all the time, they literally aren't played anymore. It has become a completely useless weapon combination.

Similarly, an Energy Draw that penalises you some amount for mega-alpha-vomiting, would more than likely kill those loadouts outright, almost like deleting them from the game entirely - the only people who would play those loadouts anymore would be the people who haven't put much thought into it and don't actually know what their doing. Everybody else will have moved on to other loadouts.

It's VERY difficult to add heat penalties to things without causing people to just jump ship entirely. More than anything in weapon balance, I feel heat penalties are very razor's edge.

Not arguing that at all. If/When an Energy Draw system is back on PGI's to-do list (again, Russ said he plans to come back to it, or something similar), I think the heat penalties should be notable, but not enough to utterly kill any and all build variety.

On the other hand, trying to balance off of exclusively a heat penalty system is also a bit of a "fool's errand", so to speak. I think the weapons need to all be balanced off of each other, and any such penalty system used to curb "bad behavior", like constant High Alpha Vomit builds, should be used in moderation to keep TTK in check.

Regardless, what do you think of the increased duration on some of the LL types and/or ERML and incrementally pushing pulses in the direction of more distinct DPS weapons? It's a two-prong approach to dealing with a lot of the Laser Vomit problems.

Edited by Sereglach, 28 February 2018 - 09:23 PM.

[Tarogato]

Sereglach, on 28 February 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

Regardless, what do you think of the increased duration on some of the LL types and/or ERML and incrementally pushing pulses in the direction of more distinct DPS weapons? It's a two-prong approach to dealing with a lot of the Laser Vomit problems.

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6037049

But I would keep pulses the way they are. Things kinda get all bent out of shape as you reduce alpha and force weapons into face-time DPS roles and in this case I'm happy with the status-quo.

[sycocys]

You know you'd save yourself all sorts of headache if you'd just focus on getting PGI to implement changes that actually give you a baseline for creating a balanced weapons chart. And you'd be much more likely to get the consensus Paul required to even hear you out.

But so long as you continue this silly route you are just spinning your wheels and wasting your own time when you could be setting up the ground work for a different game.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

... I just can't imagine a world where clan can not alpha 2x cLPL + 6x cERML. Clan SHOULD be able to do that, I think that's the whole point of clan is to have the capability of dealing that alpha. Otherwise... there's no point to being clan. But that's just my opinion.

So I would just raise the burn duration on all the clan lasers. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Keep the alpha, not ruin any builds, but make it all less effective and harder to use.

Oh SHI!
First there is a perfect way to fix things by making other options viable instead of making already long burntimes even longer. Like more reliable autocanons, less hot UAC+PPC combos, more accurate SRMs, etc. That is assuming problem exists in the first place.

Second, there are lots of mechs relying on lasers as secondary weapons and it will hurt them hard for no good reason. And its impossible to quirk them out because set-of-eight quirks are mostly unused and that's not gonna change. Pod-specific quirks will just allow people to make the same lasvomit builds on chassis currently not used for lasvomit. And then you'll have many good things broken but the issue you wanted to fix not addressed.

[Stinger554]

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

... I just can't imagine a world where clan can not alpha 2x cLPL + 6x cERML. Clan SHOULD be able to do that, I think that's the whole point of clan is to have the capability of dealing that alpha. Otherwise... there's no point to being clan. But that's just my opinion.

The high alpha problem still remains with that 2xcLPL + 6xcERML though so no.

Tarogato, on 28 February 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

So I would just raise the burn duration on all the clan lasers. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Keep the alpha, not ruin any builds, but make it all less effective and harder to use.

You could raise the heat instead, but that doesn't hurt the alpha capability. You'd still have clan mechs that are capable of one-shotting torsos. Sure, they wouldn't stand up to a prolonged engagement, but that doesn't matter when the meta is poke from cover and delete components with plenty of time to go back to cover and cooldown.

So I would raise the duration. That DOES affect the alpha capability without removing it. And for mechs like the Adder, Cougar, Viper, Ice Ferret, etc ... all those mechs that maybe aren't so strong with these weapons... they can get duration quirks to bring it back.

You'd have to increase it to a stupid degree to really affect it like HLL would have to be a 2.5+ duration...which would make it near unusable. Weren't you trying to avoid making the game less fun because this a good way to make it less fun.

Plus it'd hurt mechs that run lasers as secondary weapons unnecessarily.

Personally I think heat is the way to manage clan huge laservom alphas. For the record you can still use Gauss + PPC combos they are perfectly usable in the same manner that 3-4xPPCs are usable. Literally the only thing you cannot do with them now that they are ghost heat linked is poptart with that combo which is a good thing not a bad thing.

[Bud Crue]

Stinger554, on 01 March 2018 - 08:26 AM, said:

The high alpha problem still remains with that 2xcLPL + 6xcERML though so no.

What “high alpha problem”?
Is this the same problem wherein this or similar arrangements of lasers (2HLL/2ERLL, 4-6ERML) are ubiquitous, now that PGI has nerffed nearly everything else that could potentially come close to it in the name of higher TTK?

This isn’t a “high alpha problem”, rather its the status quo for most of the clan mechs from a Hunchback IIC up to a Marauder IIC with the IS trying to match it in its heavies using ISLL and ERML. This combo or something similar is the meta for a lot of mechs because it is thee most effective combination of weapons that the most mechs can run. The problem is not this particular brand of “high alpha”, the problem is that not much else comes close to it in terms of a similar alpha, similarly focused delivery with similar DPS, because just about everything else has been turned to crap or always was.

PGI could up the performance of damn near every weapon in the game so as to match this oh so problematic “high alpha” combination of lasers and it won’t make a damn bit of difference to TTK because lasers are still going to be the choice for most players due to the lack of having to lead, the lack of spread such as with missles and most ballistics (other than gauss and standard IS), the optimized range (with no minimum), etc.

They either have to nerf this “high alpha problem” down to the same depths that they have reduced everything else (and I certainly don’t want that), or give us a reason to play something else, in just as many mechs that our “problem” is played in, by buffing the other weapon systems to a point of similar relevancy. Until one of those things occurs, this problem is going to be the dominant reality on the vast majority of matches that are played.

Edited by Bud Crue, 01 March 2018 - 09:12 AM.

[Stinger554]

Bud Crue, on 01 March 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

What “high alpha problem”?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I hope you are joking with that question...but if you are not Clan laservomit alphas are a problem.

HBR 2xHLL + 4xCERML = 64 damage. You destroy a 100 ton ST in two alpha's, CT is three, which that HBR can easily do and lasers are not hard to use by any means and that's with all the armor front loaded. Yep no problem here. Should I showcase it with a lighter mech? I assure you that the numbers do not get better.

Do I need to mention the 80 point alphas or do you understand now what the problem is?

Edited by Stinger554, 01 March 2018 - 10:49 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Stinger554, on 01 March 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I hope you are joking with that question...but if you are not Clan laservomit alphas are a problem.

HBR 2xHLL + 4xCERML = 64 damage. You destroy a 100 ton ST in two alpha's, CT is three, which that HBR can easily do and lasers are not hard to use by any means and that's with all the armor front loaded. Yep no problem here. Should I showcase it with a lighter mech? I assure you that the numbers do not get better.

Do I need to mention the 80 point alphas or do you understand now what the problem is?

Then why hasn’t PGI addressed it in the past 8 months of near non-stop nerfs? If this particular alpha potential is a problem, you should tweet to Russ about it, because for some reason the devs in charge of balance do not appear to see it your way. Instead they address the REAL problems like machine guns with the nerf in December, or MRM30s with this month’s nerf . Those things are apparently what they see as a problem, not your 64 point or 80 point laser vomit (or gauss vomit) alphas (and don’t forget we had what... Two? Three?energy passes now since June. If this combo was truly “OP” they would have done something to temper it during one of those passes, but they didn’t).

And if they don’t see this particular combo of weapons, and it associated alpha potential as problematic then why should any other similar level of alpha but with different weapons be problematic? That’s why I say buff everything to this level. Lasers will still be better.

Edited by Bud Crue, 01 March 2018 - 11:03 AM.

[FupDup]

For those who don't see it yet, Bud is being sarcastic.

[Bud Crue]

FupDup, on 01 March 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

For those who don't see it yet, Bud is being sarcastic.

Damn it Fup.
Maybe just a bit.
Yet, the point stands though that PGI has had plenty of opportunity to address low TTK caused by perceived “high alpha problems” like that mentioned by 2CLPL and 6ERML. If PGI is OK with these “problems” (“problems” that are ubiquitous in the game to the point that they are in fact the norm and perhaps a big part of the whole “unfunning” that is the main point of this thread), then I see no reason that other weapons/combos shouldn’t be just as equally lethal.

On the other hand if all those other weapons that they have nerffed into the ground were in fact “problematic” according to PGI’s data, then WTH are they thinking by leaving weapon combos like the aforementioned laser vomit practically the only decent weapon combo for the vast majority of mechs? It is a guarantee that such will be played by the vast majority of us. Its just so short sighted and dumb.

[The6thMessenger]

I honestly would prefer it if Clan ERML retained 7 damage, but it's GH limit reduced to 4 -- or 5. I prefer a world where Clan tech is more than just vomiting lasers.

[Tarogato]

The6thMessenger, on 01 March 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

I honestly would prefer it if Clan ERML retained 7 damage, but it's GH limit reduced to 4 -- or 5. I prefer a world where Clan tech is more than just vomiting lasers.

Deathstrike doesn't care. HBK-IIC-A doesn't care.

In fact, a lot of clan builds will would be stronk and wouldn't care. For instance, reducing the ghost limit from 6 to 5 would have the strongest affect on these mechs, in my opinion:

- Cougar
- Kit Fox
- Ice Ferret
- Jenner IIC
- Nova
- Ebon Jaguar
- Linebacker
- Gargoyle
- Marauder IIC
- Supernova
- Dire Wolf

... that's a lot of collateral damage. Sure, it gets the EBJ, MAD-IIC, and SNV, but do the others on that list really deserve the hit? Maybe the DWF? (mine has a 101 alpha, but is the DWF overperforming?)

Mechs that remain unaffected are the Mad Cat Mk.II, the Hunchback IIC, the Timber Wolf, Hellbringer.... because those mechs only run four or five cERML, not all six.



If you reduce the limit to 4x cERML, then you have alphas in the 50 - 64 range, with the Deathstrike still capable of 94, and you've collected up a lot more collateral damage, and you still haven't really affected the HBK-IIC, TBR, or HBR because they already frequently run only 4x cERML anyways. So you're still applying a nerf that doesn't really attenuate the strongest builds.

[The6thMessenger]

Tarogato, on 01 March 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

If you reduce the limit to 4x cERML, then you have alphas in the 50 - 64 range, with the Deathstrike still capable of 94, and you've collected up a lot more collateral damage, and you still haven't really affected the HBK-IIC, TBR, or HBR because they already frequently run only 4x cERML anyways. So you're still applying a nerf that doesn't really attenuate the strongest builds.

I see. That really sounds like Clan lasers just need increased duration to curb those laser-vomit.