1125 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Tarogato, on 03 March 2018 - 04:36 PM, said:

That doesn't really affect the strongest meta gaussvomit builds, imo, since their rate of poke is pretty low due to heat constraints (Deathstrike, MCII-1, DWF, NTG), but it can affect a lot of non-problem mechs which are not meta and do leverage the full rate of fire of cGauss.

True, but then again it's NOT supposed to affect the strongest meta gauss-vomit build, it's just supposed to offset the weight-difference between the IS Gauss and Clan Gauss. Personally i'm fine with the C-Gauss being somewhat OP that way, but then Khobai has this itch.

Supposed that we change the damage approach and made it so that they fire faster instead, we just turned it into a semi AC gauss that has a slightly good suppressive power. The point of Gauss-Vomit is to get hot enough, but we still have gauss to fight when very hot -- increasing CD by a lot that way would still make it less effective.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 March 2018 - 04:57 PM.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 03 March 2018 - 04:53 PM, said:

No it shouldn't. We've been over this it devalues the use of Gauss at it's intended role for the other side. Just increase it's CD so less shots that way.

um thats the whole point. it weighs 12 tons instead of 15 tons. so it SHOULD be less powerful in its intended role.

your suggestion of increasing its cooldown isnt even a nerf since its not a dps weapon. its a poking weapon and cares very little about dps. anyone who cares about cooldown is going to use autocannons instead.

my way is a better way of balancing it.

The6thMessenger, on 03 March 2018 - 04:53 PM, said:

Supposed that we change the damage approach and made it so that they fire faster instead, we just turned it into a semi AC gauss that has a slightly good suppressive power.

not really. heres an example:

clan gauss = 12 damage, 0.8 heat, 3.5+0.5 cooldown (3 dps), 780m range

clan UAC10 = 3.33 damage x 3 bursts (4 dps single tap, 5 dps double tap), 3.5 heat, 2.5 cooldown, 450m range

theyre really nothing alike at all.

you could even feasibly allow x3 PPC/Gauss with the 12 damage clan gauss.

The6thMessenger, on 03 March 2018 - 04:53 PM, said:

True, but then again it's NOT supposed to affect the strongest meta gauss-vomit build, it's just supposed to offset the weight-difference between the IS Gauss and Clan Gauss. Personally i'm fine with the C-Gauss being somewhat OP that way, but then Khobai has this itch.

cgauss weighs 3 tons less than std gauss, it needs to be considerably worse

if it was 12v10, then it mightve been okay for cgauss to be 20% better than ISgauss

but its not 12v10

its 12v12 and as such, cgauss, at best, should perform somewhere in between a light gauss and a standard gauss.

IS and Clan will never be balanced as long as Clans get weapons/equipment that are outright superior

The biggest offenders being the CGauss, CXL, CDHS, and CES/FF. Those are all examples of clan tech being straight up superior to the IS versions.

And the more PGI tries to balance that out with superquirks the more ridiculously lopsided the game gets. Like the bushwhacker being more survivable than the timberwolf. they need to balance out the tech base fundamentals better and give clan weapons an actual downside when they weigh 3 tons less. And get rid of some of the absurd superquirks.

Edited by Khobai, 03 March 2018 - 05:47 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

um thats the whole point. it weighs 12 tons instead of 15 tons. so it SHOULD be less powerful in its intended role.

your suggestion of increasing its cooldown isnt even a nerf since its not a dps weapon. its a poking weapon and cares very little about dps. anyone who cares about cooldown is going to use autocannons instead.

my way is a better way of balancing it.

No it's not better, it's worse, much much worse. That's a narrow view of it.

You're trying to balance Clan-tech 1:1 when there's far more factors to be considered, such as how well would it par upon the role it's supposed to do. 12 damage ain't going to cut it for what it's meant to do.

an IS Gauss doing 15 damage every 5.75s is much more powerful versus Clan Gauss doing 15 damage every 7.25.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

not really. heres an example:

clan gauss = 12 damage, 3.5+0.5 cooldown (3 dps), 780m range

clan UAC10 = 10 damage in 3 bursts (4 dps, 5 dps double tap), 2.5 cooldown, 450m range, can double tap

theyre really nothing alike at all

I never said that they are alike at all. I said "Semi AC"

"SEMI" -- as in it's not yet AC but it's a step towards it.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

cgauss weighs 3 tons less than std gauss, it needs to be considerably worse

In which increased cooldown can adequately provide. It's supposed to balance the IS vs Clan tech, not to affect Meta gauss-vomit mechs in mind.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

if it was 12v10, then it mightve been okay for cgauss to be 20% better than ISgauss

but its not 12v10

its 12v12 and as such, cgauss, at best, should perform somewhere in between a light gauss and a standard gauss.

Irrelevant, and poor reasoning due to wrong premises.

Not only that we also have instances of clan vs clan, IS vs IS in FP, we also have Clan+IS vs Clan+IS in QP which would make such concern invalid. And you have failed to substantiate why we should take 20% of increased power better in 10v12 or 8v8 than 12v12 in the first place.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

IS and Clan will never be balanced as long as Clans get weapons/equipment that are outright superior

The biggest offenders being the CGauss, CXL, CDHS, and CES/FF. Those are all examples of clan tech being straight up superior to the IS versions.

And the more PGI tries to balance that out with superquirks the more ridiculously lopsided the game gets. Like the bushwhacker being more survivable than the timberwolf. they need to balance out the tech base fundamentals better and give clan weapons an actual downside when they weigh 3 tons less. And get rid of some of the absurd superquirks.

I agree. But then considering that Clan Tech is supposedly superior in TT, unless PGI gets a bit less lore, we have that barrier.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 03 March 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

You're trying to balance Clan-tech 1:1 when there's far more factors to be considered, such as how well would it par upon the role it's supposed to do. 12 damage ain't going to cut it for what it's meant to do.

I disagree.

x2 CGauss @ 12 damage + x6 CERML is still 66 damage (24+42 = 66)

that basically is its role. and its still stronger than what IS can do with an equivalent build.

x2 ISGauss + x6 ISERML = 60 damage which is less than 66 (30+30 = 60)

The6thMessenger, on 03 March 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

an IS Gauss doing 15 damage every 5.75s is much more powerful versus Clan Gauss doing 15 damage every 7.25.

not really. since the clan mech is going to have other weapons besides the gauss.

for example, clans can do x2 gauss + x6 CERML for the same tonnage that IS needs for just dual gauss.

Quote

I never said that they are alike at all. I said "Semi AC"

"SEMI" -- as in it's not yet AC but it's a step towards it.

Its not even "Semi AC". Its in between a light gauss and a standard gauss.

The6thMessenger, on 03 March 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

Irrelevant, and poor reasoning due to wrong premises.

Not only that we also have instances of clan vs clan, IS vs IS in FP, we also have Clan+IS vs Clan+IS in QP which would make such concern invalid. And you have failed to substantiate why we should take 20% of increased power better in 10v12 or 8v8 than 12v12 in the first place.

like I said, having superior clan tech mightve been okay in 10v12. but its not okay in 12v12.

Edited by Khobai, 03 March 2018 - 06:07 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

I disagree.

x2 CGauss @ 12 damage + x6 CERML is still 66 damage (24+42 = 66)

that basically is its role. and its still stronger than what IS can do with an equivalent build.

x2 ISGauss + x6 ISERML = 60 damage which is less than 66 (30+30 = 60)

Lol. I don't think you understand what "role" is.

Take away the CERMLs, and you still have a long-range weapon that has piss-poor way of dumping damage. Builds are one thing, but weapons as individual is another, you are ignoring what other builds that could be done.

I could understand that for LGR cause it's supposed to be different versus other gauss weapons, but clan has only 1 variant.

Is this what it is? You just wanna nerf gauss-vomit?

Personally i'm fine with nerfing vomits in general, but i'd take the laser route.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

Its not even Semi AC. Its in between a light gauss and a standard gauss.

Yes it is, as it's capitalizing on the quicker recycle time.

For scale, AC20 has 20 damage every 4s -- since you suggested 3.5 + 0.5s, wouldn't they be the same? Hell, even Light Gauss is actually semi-ac for the exact same reason, what you think that because there's light-gauss before AC it's not a step towards it?

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

like I said, having superior clan tech mightve been okay in 10v12. but its not okay in 12v12.

Because basically you said so.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 March 2018 - 06:11 PM.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 03 March 2018 - 06:07 PM, said:

Lol. I don't think you understand what "role" is.

Take away the CERMLs, and you still have a long-range weapon that has piss-poor way of dumping damage. I could understand that for LGR cause it's supposed to be different versus other gauss weapons, but clan has only 1 variant.

Obviously you dont understand role.

The WHOLE POINT of Gauss is that its low on heat so you can combo it with energy weapons.

Nobody uses clan gauss without CERMLs. So why would you take the CERMLs away?

You dont use CGauss as a standalone weapon; you combine it with energy weapons. If you want ballistics by themselves you use UACs.

The6thMessenger, on 03 March 2018 - 06:07 PM, said:

Is this what it is? You just wanna nerf gauss-vomit?

correct.

I want to nerf clan gauss/laser vomit to balance it better with IS gauss/laser vomit

x2 12 damage CGauss + x6 CERML = 66 damage and 32 tons
x2 IS gauss + x6 ISERML = 60 damage and 38 tons

Look the clan version is still way better even with CGauss being nerfed to 12 damage.

You could even nerf CERML down to 6 damage and it would STILL be better.

x2 12 damage CGauss +x6 6 damage CERML = 60 damage and 32 tons

Same damage and STILL weighs less.

I should also mention the fact the IS mech cant really use an XL engine and has to use an LFE engine. So the IS mech is losing at least another 5 tons there.

Wow its almost like clan tech is absurdly better than IS tech and should probably be nerfed or something...

Edited by Khobai, 03 March 2018 - 06:20 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

Obviously you dont understand role.

Lol.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

The WHOLE POINT of Gauss is that it runs low on heat so you can combo it with energy weapons.

Among other things. What you think that's an "aha moment"? Gauss is supposed to be devastating long-range weapon, and 12 damage from the original 15 damage is a disservice to one of other things it's supposed to do.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

Nobody uses clan gauss without CERMLs. So why would you take the CERMLs away?

Because I'm nobody.

Jokes aside, why are you ignoring people's freedom to build as they please? As if meta is all there is.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

correct.

I want to balance clan gauss/laser vomit better with IS gauss/laser vomit

x2 12 damage CGauss + x6 CERML = 66 damage and 32 tons
x2 IS gauss + x6 ISERML = 60 damage and 38 tons

Look the clan version is still way better even with CGauss being nerfed to 12 damage.

You could even nerf CERML down to 6 damage and it would STILL be better.

x2 12 damage CGauss +x6 6 damage CERML = 60 damage and 32 tons

Same damage and STILL weighs less.

Wow its almost like clan tech is absurdly better than IS tech and should probably be nerfed or something.

I'm pretty sure that IS gauss vomit is 3x ERLL + 2x Gauss.

And if there's stuff to be nerfed, it's lasers as it's the source of Clan op-ness, leave the C-GR out of this. I mean take away the gauss and have a standard laser vomit -- Clans are still pretty powerful with it cause they can auto-delete components from a much much farther range, as opposed of simply going gauss boat, so we can surmise that the real issue is the laser component.

And again, looking at purely by tons alone, that's really narrow and childish way of looking at things.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 March 2018 - 06:21 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Among other things. What you think that's an "aha moment"? Gauss is supposed to be devastating long-range weapon, and 12 damage from the original 15 damage is a disservice to one of other things it's supposed to do.

it still would be a devastating long range weapon

even at 12 damage youre doing a bigger alpha for less weight than what IS is capable of.

Quote

Because I'm nobody.

Jokes aside, why are you ignoring people's freedom to build as they please? As if meta is all there is.

Then youre doing it wrong. Because the whole purpose of gauss is to synergize its low heat with high heat energy weapons.

Quote

And if there's stuff to be nerfed, it's lasers as it's the source of Clan op-ness, leave the C-GR out of this.

both are outright superior to their IS versions and should be nerfed.

Quote

And again, looking at purely by tons alone, that's really narrow and childish way of looking at things.

actually its the best way of looking at things. since tonnage determines how much you can fit on a mech.

crit slots are also important. but as it turns out clan tech takes up less crit slots too.

Edited by Khobai, 03 March 2018 - 06:28 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

it still would be a devasting long range weapon

even at 12 damage youre doing a bigger alpha for less weight than what IS is capable of.

But you'll still be doing less alpha, especially when you're using the Gauss for it's intended long-range role where the ERMLs are generally hindered to participate.

What do you elect for Clan lasers to also do the same damage as IS does for-the-same-alpha? This 1:1 matching with disregard to other factors is just narrow-minded and childish.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

Then youre doing it wrong. Because the whole purpose of gauss is to synergize its low heat with high heat energy weapons.

Lol no. Gauss also has a long-range component, of which the front-loaded nature and less visible projectile is useful.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

both are outright superior to their IS versions and should be nerfed.

Sure, but not handled idiotically.

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

actually its the best way of looking at things. since tonnage determines how much you can fit on a mech.

crit slots are also important. but as it turns out clan tech takes up less crit slots too.

But unless were allowing mixed-tech, that's just stupid cause equipment are asymmetric. It's not like Clan has access to an IS Gauss, or Heavy Gauss -- the clans are limited to 12 damage at long range where IS has a plethora of other choices. You'd be just condemning one side to be completely inferior at certain roles.

Lol,"best way" my butt. Supposed that i let you have that, it's still not even the right way in this case.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 March 2018 - 06:44 PM.

[Reno Blade]

Is the "next version" of the proposed changes already available?

[JohnnyWayne]

Unpopular opinion: I like Guass. And I like Guass + energy what so ever. And I also want Gauss + PPCs back. And cSPL.

In my opinion bring everything back up to the point that was considered "balanced" a year ago. And fix those slow *** stupid mechs that can't even switch out their engines.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 21 March 2018 - 08:40 AM.

[Dollar Bill]

Reno Blade, on 21 March 2018 - 06:02 AM, said:

Is the "next version" of the proposed changes already available?

Next version?

[Sjorpha]

I'd like cgauss to stay as it is, but buff IS gauss a bit to be worth the 3 extra tons. I think a good way to buff IS gauss would be to make it a better standalone sniper weapons than the cgauss, give it back 3x range and give it a bit better cooldown while leaving cGauss alone. If cGauss has to be nerfed I think it should be something other than damage such as for example increase the chargeup time or reduce velocity.

I don't like the idea of equalizing IS and Clan alpha damage, be it for gaussvomit or whatever, it's boring if the factions are good at the same things.

I like the Clan=big alpha and range, IS=pinpoint and DPS kind of balancing, and IMO it would be better to simply push these differences further when the performance is unbalanced. So for example if clan lasers are too strong then increase their duration and heat rather than nerf damage or range, if IS lasers are too weak then do the opposite and buff duration, cooldown and heat.

So balance in ways that make the factions more different in function and playstyle. Clan should be associated with lots of raw power, high average running speed and range advantage but be bad at heat and agility and generally more difficult to use. I think it's thematic to make clan mechs require much more skill to play than they do now as they are made for elite pilots in lore.

IS should have more pinpoint, be more durabe, cooler and more agile but run slower and have lower alphas that are easier to aim.

Some of these characteristics are already there, but Clan mechs still have a heat advantage because of their superior DHS and a durability advantage at equal firepower levels because of cXL. So there is some things to address there.

I'm actually fine with quirks being a significant part of this balance equation on the IS tech side as long as they are strong enough on all the mechs that need them to actually achieve a balance. It does reinforce the theme of IS mechs being more niched into roles and Clan mechs being more generic and modular, which is how it should be.

Edited by Sjorpha, 21 March 2018 - 01:13 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I'd like cGauss to be a little less explosive, and isGauss to be even less explosive than that.

[InspectorG]

Sjorpha, on 21 March 2018 - 01:11 PM, said:

I'd like cgauss to stay as it is, but buff IS gauss a bit to be worth the 3 extra tons. I think a good way to buff IS gauss would be to make it a better standalone sniper weapons than the cgauss, give it back 3x range and give it a bit better cooldown while leaving cGauss alone. If cGauss has to be nerfed I think it should be something other than damage such as for example increase the chargeup time or reduce velocity.

I don't like the idea of equalizing IS and Clan alpha damage, be it for gaussvomit or whatever, it's boring if the factions are good at the same things.

I like the Clan=big alpha and range, IS=pinpoint and DPS kind of balancing, and IMO it would be better to simply push these differences further when the performance is unbalanced. So for example if clan lasers are too strong then increase their duration and heat rather than nerf damage or range, if IS lasers are too weak then do the opposite and buff duration, cooldown and heat.

So balance in ways that make the factions more different in function and playstyle. Clan should be associated with lots of raw power, high average running speed and range advantage but be bad at heat and agility and generally more difficult to use. I think it's thematic to make clan mechs require much more skill to play than they do now as they are made for elite pilots in lore.

IS should have more pinpoint, be more durabe, cooler and more agile but run slower and have lower alphas that are easier to aim.

Some of these characteristics are already there, but Clan mechs still have a heat advantage because of their superior DHS and a durability advantage at equal firepower levels because of cXL. So there is some things to address there.

I'm actually fine with quirks being a significant part of this balance equation on the IS tech side as long as they are strong enough on all the mechs that need them to actually achieve a balance. It does reinforce the theme of IS mechs being more niched into roles and Clan mechs being more generic and modular, which is how it should be.

I agree in principle, but it falls apart when the IS has a dearth of brawl-friendly maps. Starting beyond range is generally gonna favor clans.

[N0MAD]

Khobai, on 03 March 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

Obviously you dont understand role.

The WHOLE POINT of Gauss is that its low on heat so you can combo it with energy weapons.

I want to nerf clan gauss/laser vomit to balance it better with IS gauss/laser vomit

x2 12 damage CGauss + x6 CERML = 66 damage and 32 tons
x2 IS gauss + x6 ISERML = 60 damage and 38 tons

You can use math to demonstrate your point but when you dont use all variables in an equation to get an accurate answer the math is wrong.
You have not factored in relevant variables like the heat difference in lasers, burn times, extra weight in heat sincs needed to run clan lasers vs IS lasers and the vast difference in quirks.
With your example, good luck firing 6 clan ERML without basically sending yourself into crit heat even with far more heat sincs which means more weight to the build, good luck firing 2 alphas of 6 clan meds without shutting down while you will get 4+ alphas with IS med lasers with less sincs. Then theres burn time, IS lasers have an advantage in burn times and if the chasis have a -burn quirk well..go on tell me face time is not important.
Sure you can put numbers there to make a point but without including all variables into your calculation your math is just wrong.

[Sjorpha]

InspectorG, on 21 March 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

I agree in principle, but it falls apart when the IS has a dearth of brawl-friendly maps. Starting beyond range is generally gonna favor clans.

I'm not saying that IS should only competitive at brawl range, their mid and long range should follow the same principles of cooler, more pinpoint, higher sustained DPS, but lower alphas and burst DPS. Those differences should be pushed to where both factions have competitive options in all range brackets.

Edited by Sjorpha, 21 March 2018 - 04:28 PM.

[Mystere]

Why do people still seem to be so hung up on Clan vs. IS issues? CW means almost next to nothing today, and will mean absolutely nothing when Solaris comes out.

Why don't people just buy the Mechs they want to ride, irrespective of affiliation?

[Nema Nabojiv]

This whole initiative with re-funning and community driven stuff ended up pretty well, hasn't it.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Small incremental changes.