1125 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:07 PM, said:

I'm seeing people freaking out about Gauss + 2PPC 35 damage pinpoint.... let alone 2Gauss + PPC (which is fine for the weight it requires)

I think it's the range that comes with it.

[Navid A1]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:06 PM, said:

The reason a lot of people are against Gauss + 2 PPC is because you can headshot with it.

Hats off to people who headshot from 700m away with 2 weapons with 2 different velocities.
at closer to mid ranges.... dual HGauss do that with no problem

Also I do not remember getting headshot by that loadout being a problem.

The6thMessenger, on 08 February 2018 - 08:09 PM, said:

I think it's the range that comes with it.

well.. you have dual gauss + dual ERLL builds doing a much better job... about the same pinpoint with lose aim... and 50+ with good aim

Edited by Navid A1, 08 February 2018 - 08:11 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

the problem is it gives cheaters the ability to do it

if no one can do it then cheaters cant do it either

You've just gone full Johnny Z.

Never go full Johnny Z.

[Navid A1]

You have to remember the effect different velocities have on dual gauss, dual PPC builds.

it won't be pinpoint on a moving target if you are aiming for 700+ meters. At mid ranges... you have 80+ gauss vomit alphas that delete mechs much much more effectively than dual gauss + ppc

[The6thMessenger]

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

well.. you have dual gauss + dual ERLL builds doing a much better job... about the same pinpoint with lose aim... and 50+ with good aim

To be fair, laser is spreadable, PPC is PPFLD. Sure you can beam your lasers, but as soon as one can get hit they can react, not the case with a surprise PPC-Gauss shot. Long range you can paint your target with damage all over, PPC would put all of it's damage at one location. Compare that to a poptart mech such as the Night-Gyr that could do 2x Gauss + PPC in the first place, i could see why they won't like it.

Now okay sure, perhaps we can get away with 3 links of gauss and PPCs, hell i even want to see 3 PPC if that's the case. But i don't like it.

[Navid A1]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

the problem is it gives cheaters the ability to do it

if no one can do it then cheaters cant do it either

Cheaters can already do that.
The ghost heat does not shut you down at the moment.

A cheater will gladly take that ghost heat and delete its target... right now.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

the problem is it gives cheaters the ability to do it

if no one can do it then cheaters cant do it either

lolz Anyone who kills me in a match must be hacking. Theres simply no other acceptable explanation.

[Khobai]

they increased the velocity of PPCs specifically as a result of gauss+PPC getting linked for ghost heat

you realize if they delink them, PPC velocity will have to be decreased back to terrible

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lolz Anyone who kills me in a match must be hacking. Theres simply no other acceptable explanation.

if I get killed with a headshot from across the map I tend to get suspicious yes

Quote

Cheaters can already do that.
The ghost heat does not shut you down at the moment.

A cheater will gladly take that ghost heat and delete its target... right now.

exactly. ghost heat doesnt prevent you from firing gauss + 2 ppcs now.

so we dont need to roll it back at all. if you want to fire that combination of weapons, then eat the extra heat.

I dont want clan mechs doing 45 damage from across the map to become common place again.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 08:24 PM.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

they increased the velocity of PPCs specifically as a result of gauss+PPC getting linked for ghost heat

you realize if they delink them, PPC velocity will have to be decreased back to terrible



if I get killed with a headshot from across the map I tend to get suspicious yes

A shot from across the map with 2ppc guass would do zero damage to you, at 4 grid squares its only like idk 5 damage. Please stop exaggerating this weapon combo for dramatic effect sir.

[Navid A1]

The6thMessenger, on 08 February 2018 - 08:16 PM, said:

To be fair, laser is spreadable, PPC is PPFLD. Sure you can beam your lasers, but as soon as one can get hit they can react, not the case with a surprise PPC-Gauss shot. Long range you can paint your target with damage all over, PPC would put all of it's damage at one location. Compare that to a poptart mech such as the Night-Gyr that could do 2x Gauss + PPC in the first place, i could see why they won't like it.

Now okay sure, perhaps we can get away with 3 links of gauss and PPCs, hell i even want to see 3 PPC if that's the case. But i don't like it.

Night Gyr became a problem when it could do 2 Gauss + 2 PPC
They nerfed its agility and even that build died.

You can spread the damage against a laser, sure... however, how much percentage of that you think you can divert away? 50%?
still more damage to a single component compared to Gauss + 2PPCs... and to top it off... with Gauss +PPC, you have to lead considering 2 different velocities.... while Gauss vomit mechs have hitscan and just need to lead one of their weapons (which usually is faster than 2k+ m/s)

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

Night Gyr became a problem when it could do 2 Gauss + 2 PPC
They nerfed its agility and even that build died.

You can spread the damage against a laser, sure... however, how much percentage of that you think you can divert away? 50%?
still more damage to a single component compared to Gauss + 2PPCs... and to top it off... with Gauss +PPC, you have to lead considering 2 different velocities.... while Gauss vomit mechs have hitscan and just need to lead one of their weapons (which usually is faster than 2k+ m/s)

Yup, this is all just classical PPFlD is the great satan crap.

[Navid A1]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:16 PM, said:

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

the problem is it gives cheaters the ability to do it

if no one can do it then cheaters cant do it either

Cheaters can already do that.
The ghost heat does not shut you down at the moment.

A cheater will gladly take that ghost heat and delete its target... right now.

exactly. ghost heat doesnt prevent you from firing gauss + 2 ppcs now.

so we dont need to roll it back at all. if you want to fire that combination of weapons, then eat the extra heat.

Your reason to not bring back dual Gauss + PPC and dual PPC + Gauss was "Cheaters"

And when I tell you that cheaters can do it right now with little risk, you tell me thats a reason not to bring ghost heat?

I'm sorry, but that logic is flawed. You are worried about getting headshot by cheaters... and I'm telling you that ghost heat will not affect that.

Using the full PPFLD potential of Gauss PPC combos need aiming skills. And I 100% support rewarding that skill

Edited by Navid A1, 08 February 2018 - 08:28 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Your reason to not bring back dual Gauss + PPC and dual PPC + Gauss was "Cheaters"

there are many reasons. thats just one of them.

another reason is that short range PPFLD should have an advantage over long range PPFLD.

short range weapons incur more risk with little added reward. so by capping long range PPFLD at a lower level than short range PPFLD you give short range weapons more of an advantage.

yet another reason is that I simply dont enjoy the long range sniping meta. The era of Gauss/PPC poptarts was one of the least enjoyable time periods for this game.

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And when I tell you that cheaters can do it right now with little risk, you tell me thats a reason not to bring ghost heat?

if you can fire gauss+2ppc anyway then we certainly dont need to roll it back.

you already have the option to eat the extra heat to fire that weapon combo

that ghost heat prevents it from being common place though.

remove the ghost heat and EVERYONE will be doing it again. we dont need that.

Quote

A shot from across the map with 2ppc guass would do zero damage to you, at 4 grid squares its only like idk 5 damage. Please stop exaggerating this weapon combo for dramatic effect sir.

ok im sorry. 750m then.

so halfway across the map.

you obviously knew what I meant.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 08:35 PM.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Glad to see that this noble thread is completely on topic, And that we are coming together as a community to petition our most honorable balance overlords to make mwo fun again.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I... can't find any fault with any of this, really. It's a very well thought out set of numbers, and even the stats which I wouldn't personally have adjusted to where they are in the proposal, I'd at least be willing to try at the new values in the interest of improving overall balance.

Hopefully PGI sets up a PTS for this.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Dude if you think you ran into a botter you report and move on. You dont destroy an entire weapons combination. Ghost heat is at this moment ZER0 protection from what your describing.

[Navid A1]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:26 PM, said:

Your reason to not bring back dual Gauss + PPC and dual PPC + Gauss was "Cheaters"

there are many reasons.

For example?


I'm kinda trying to find a reason a weapon combo should stay dead while we have some big offenders doing double or even triple alphas... because you can twist lasers damage..., sure you can... A gauss vomit mech still punches a 30 alpha PPFLD on your mech.... with a 50-60 damage alpha on top... even if you are a machine with instantaneous reaction time... how fast do you think your mech can twist its torso?... even if you catch 30% of that alpha damage, its already better than a SINGLE PPC!

You are also forgetting the fact that with PPCs, you can miss!... not the case with lasers!

Edited by Navid A1, 08 February 2018 - 08:35 PM.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:34 PM, said:

For example?


I'm kinda trying to find a reason a weapon combo should stay dead while we have some big offenders doing double or even triple alphas... because you can twist lasers damage..., sure you can... A gauss vomit mech still punches a 30 alpha PPFLD on your mech.... with a 50-60 damage alpha on top... even if you are a machine with instantaneous reaction time... how fast do you think your mech can twist its torso?... even if you catch 30% of that alpha damage, its already better than a SINGLE PPC!

You are also forgetting the fact that with PPCs, you can miss!... not the case with lasers!

You can easily correct a bad laser burn doing at least something. You miss with guass ppc you just did........nothing.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm kinda trying to find a reason a weapon combo should stay dead while we have some big offenders doing double or even triple alphas... because you can twist lasers damage..., sure you can... A gauss vomit mech still punches a 30 alpha PPFLD on your mech.... with a 50-60 damage alpha on top... even if you are a machine with instantaneous reaction time... how fast do you think your mech can twist its torso?... even if you catch 30% of that alpha damage, its already better than a SINGLE PPC!

I explained why. Because we dont need to go back to that period of time where clan mechs were doing 45 damage from "halfway" across the map. The PPFLD sniping meta was toxic. Thats why we got rid of it. Some people could never let it go and now theyre trying to bring it back.

And I also want to nerf gauss/laser and laser vomit.

so using broken examples of gauss/laser or laser vomit as justification for why broken PPC/Gauss combos should be restored is ridiculous.

neither should exist. high damage alphas need to be purged from the game. Except for spread weapons they dont really apply.

Also its about promoting a balanced meta. Sniping PPFLD needs to be weaker than brawling PPFLD in order to promote a healthy meta where both sniping and brawling can coexist. Brawling needs to have the reward of higher damage in order to compete against sniping.

If you can do 45 damage mostly PPFLD damage from long range. Then whats the incentive of weapons like heavy gauss rifles? or AC20s? long range PPFLD should be capped at like 30 damage; that way short range PPFLD in the 40-50 damage range has some reward to it (dual AC20, dual heavy gauss, etc..).

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 08:50 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

I want some honest answers here.

are Gauss + 2 PPC builds really a problem?
35 pinpoint. Too hot on clan mechs, too heavy (and hot) on IS mechs


are 2 Gauss + PPC builds a problem?
40 pinpoint, Too heavy on most chassis
(night gyr got shafted with mobility nerfs, remember)

1Gauss 2PPC is very obviously not a problem, many mechs can do it and none of them was dominant in the meta before the linking.

The only potentially problematic build is Night Gyr 2Gauss 1PPC, since that was the only poptart using 3 weapons that actually was a dominant build. Now I don't feel qualified to judge if it would become a problem again or not, I want the comp folks to weigh in on that. Bad agility isn't necessarily a big drawback for static poptarting strategies, so I think it's actually possible it could become very strong again.

On the IS side I see absolutely no cause to worry about 2Gauss + 1ppc, there isn't really any good chassis that can jump high enough with that loadout on the IS side. I guess Thanatos could technically do it, but I don't think it would be a very good build

One option here is actually to increase the limit to 3 on the IS side but keep it at 2 on the clan side.