1125 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

2 clan gauss and 1 CERPPC is 45 mostly PPFLD damage how is that not dominant?

no thanks we really dont need to go back to that. it was taken out of the game for a reason.

Read my whole post...

[Bad Pun]

I'd like to drop my opinion into the mix. While I'm by no means a good player, I would like to see a couple things.

Clan ERML is too much like a one-ton IS LL. If they were knocked down to 6 damage, with 5.4 heat, 1.12 duration and 3.8 cooldown they would probably feel better, as this retains the current DPS and DPH, just reducing alpha from a possible 42 to a much more sane 36.

The second item I'd like is ATMs. A weapon only truly good in a 150 meter window seems neither advanced nor tactical.
I feel that a base damage of 2/missile is quite fair if the minimum range is removed entirely, since I feel that ATMs compete most directly with Streaks. SRMs will still be a superior choice and Streaks have their own mechanics to recommend them. Then I suggest that the damage begin tapering off after 270 meters to their maximum range stopping at 1/missile, giving a little more to the Streaks yet allowing them to remain a contender against LRMs for a little while, if not quite as good. That's fairly logical to me, since LRMs have their own niche in the name.
ATMs would need more ammunition per ton to make this worthwhile, I would presume at least 120/ton.
Then the case of AMS being so ruthless against them, a minor increase in missile heath would be welcome, and a slight buff to velocity.

[Navid A1]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

2 clan gauss and 1 CERPPC is 45 mostly PPFLD damage how is that not dominant?

2 CERPPC and 1 clan gauss is still 45 damage too. We dont need that either.

no thanks we really dont need to go back to that. it was taken out of the game for a reason.

2 C-Gauss and 1 C-PPC is 40 PPFLD,
2 C-PPC and 1 C-Gauss is 35 PPFLD
otherwise, I have a dire with "mostly" 100 PPFLD!

PGI went down the road of "nerf what is working"... just like what people are suggesting.
it did not work out well.

Limit of 3 was fine by all measures for Gauss PPC combos
The problem was Dual Gauss + Dual PPCs on mechs which could go 60+ kph.
PGI, went the typical PGI way and annihilated it, instead of addressing the issue specifically.



My conclusion is people just want even more ghost heat. otherwise you can not prevent mechs from doing 80+ alphas if they have the hardpoint numbers to put weapons in them.
Unless you want 3 damage C-ERMLs

Edited by Navid A1, 08 February 2018 - 11:03 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Limit of 3 was fine by all measures for Gauss PPC combos

nope. thats why its limit of 2.

if limit of 3 was fine it wouldnt be limit of 2 now.

x2 PPC+Gauss and x2 Gauss+PPC will hopefully never come back.


I think 3 ppcs should be allowed though. dunno why ppcs are still ghost heated at 2.

even 3 cerppc should be allowed because thats still only 30 PPFLD and half the time half the splash damage disappears, theres no threat there

but I dont think 40+ PPFLD combinations should be allowed at long range.


when you can do that much lethal damage from the relative safety of long range it removes any incentive to brawl. because when brawlers have to suffer that much PPFLD to close the distance its just not worth it for them. sniping alphas need to be capped at like 30 PPFLD damage to keep brawling relevant.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 10:26 PM.

[naterist]

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:06 PM, said:

Why?

is 35 damage pinpoint too large every 5 seconds?

its the fact that it isnt really that hard to do it at 5 hundred meters, and its even doable beyond that. if it was range limited like the hgauss, it would be much less of an issue. and on top of that, 35 points of armour is like, half a mechs total front armour on most mechs. you combine that with the range and you can kill a mech so fast, like 3 shots min, and they wont be able to do anything. at least you can spread laservomit/gause around, and recieve the same total damage to the focused area if your good, and the other mech suffers heat for doing so. the old ppc/gauss didnt really generate enough heat to make it have a trade off.

Edited by naterist, 08 February 2018 - 10:32 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

nope. thats why its limit of 2.

if limit of 3 was fine it wouldnt be limit of 2 now.

LOL. Assuming PGI knows everything, then yes.

That is a terrible assumption, and therefore a terrible conclusion.

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

2 CERPPC and 1 clan gauss is still 45 damage too. We dont need that either.

Now you are just trolling. Its 35 ppfld, with 10 splash.

[Khobai]

Quote

LOL. Assuming PGI knows everything, then yes.

That is a terrible assumption, and therefore a terrible conclusion.

Linking Gauss/PPC was actually one of the changes the community suggested

People were fed up with long range PPFLD.

Quote

Now you are just trolling. Its 35 ppfld, with 10 splash.

35 PPFLD is borderline. im on the fence about allowing that.

40 PPFLD is definitely more than what should be allowed. so im against x2 gauss + PPC.

Theres not much incentive to use weapon combinations like dual AC20 if you can just do 40 PPFLD from long range instead. So I do think the long range PPFLD needs to be kept below 40 for sure.

when it comes to PPFLD, AC20 and HGR should be king. Not gauss and ppcs.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 10:37 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 10:32 PM, said:

Linking Gauss/PPC was actually one of the changes the community suggested

And which part of the community was that?

[Troa Barton]

I have to say that the majority of the changes I agree with especially the changes to ballistics.

What I have issue with is the gauss PPC combos, Personally I think that should only apply to light gauss and light PPCs if anything. This would give both of those weapons a niche, and would allow players that enjoyed that playstyle a platform to use them. Otherwise I do not agree that they should be allowed to be used together again.

What I would like to add to this list are further reductions to PPC heat.
Currently lasers are too strong at range imo anything past 750m should be in the realm of ballistics, missiles, and PPCs.
PPCs are skill based weapons that you have to lead, they have a minimum range, are high heat, high crit slot weapons that either do 100% damage or 0. Weapons like that should not be picked after lasers for long range engagements It should be the other way around.

So this suggestion is two fold, reduce the range of ER large lasers and decrease the heat further than proposed on PPCs.
This would make it so that at range PPCs are king, but the closer you get lasers become the better choice. This would give roles back to the stalker, awesome, and other IS energy boat assaults. The 4 PPC stalker of old was powerful back in the day but in today's game a 40 damage alpha with minimum range and excessive ghost heat limitations is hardly a threat. A weapon with that many limitations that must be aimed properly should be far better than an ER large laser.

I would also like to see the ghost heat limit on AC20s upped to three. Mechs that use double 20s aren't really that dangerous unless you get close and usually anything they get close to has a higher burst alpha. If double heavy gauss is a thing I dont see why double AC20 isn't.

Risk should = reward.

Lastly I would like to see some sort of buff to LRM 5's and 10's as it is now they are useless as any ams means they are not going to do any damage. Missile health would be one way to go about it but velocity would be interesting if only for the aesthetics.

[Cy Mitchell]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

its 60 damage. 60 damage is fine.

CHLL x2 = 36 damage
CERML x4 at reduced damage of 6 = 24 damage
36+24 = 60 damage

The person I quoted stated erLL not HLL and he was proposing GH with 2 x erLL and 1 erML. That is what I said was too restrictive and then I said that even using the 2 x erLL and 4 erML it would not be too much damage.

By the way, if it was up to me then your example would look like:

CHLL x 2 = 30 damage
CerML x 4 = 24 damage
30+24= 54 which I find acceptable whereas I find 60 point alphas on Medium and Heavy Mechs to be too much and that is not even the most that can be packed into a fast Heavy Mech. 2 CHLL and 5-6 CerML is sustainable in the world of double enhanced coolshots.

Edited by Rampage, 08 February 2018 - 10:54 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 10:39 PM, said:

the sensible part

Lol. The sensible part that knows what they were talking about and understands balance beyond "that killed me in my lore build, that must be OP" was against it.

[The6thMessenger]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

Listen, my argument is that 2 Gauss PPC will not become a dominant force in the current game if it loses its ghost heat. Other more mobile options (Summoner) are better at it, even though the fire power is less.

But... i will concede that it is just too soon for that, so I would like to at least press for 2 PPC 1 Gauss to be allowed because it opens up a lot of options.

At a 1 to 1 damage, i will grant you this, Gauss Vomit is better than Gauss-PPC, but the trick is that the Gauss-PPC doubles-down on the poke-fade style that's relatively a cheap tactic. It's about the risk that comes with dealing the damage, and doing 50 alpha for the gauss vomit, that's not the same required input of risk for the Gauss-PPC that will make them better at trading. Quite simply it's a lot safer to execute front-loaded combo, such as Gauss PPC, versus Gauss Vomit, that PPFLD damage does not have appropriate risk of retaliation in comparison.

Do you know that Ebon Jaguar and Timber Wolf can also load a 2x PPC + Gauss? That's still 35 PPFLD + 10 damage, versus 2x Gauss + PPC that results in 40 PPFLD + 5 splash. At it's current link of gauss-PPC, i can still run 2x Gauss + 2x PPC, just partition those shots by 0.75s and i could still have get decent score, I don't see anything wrong there. We shouldn't be encouraging any more of these cancerous playstyle, as if Laser-Vomit isn't already too effective.

Tell you what, maybe they should just reduce the heat-penalty in half. You still hit GH 3+, but it wouldn't be as debilitating. For example, with 16-DHS Timber-Wolf reaches 45% with just 2x PPC, but 75% with Gauss + 2x PPC shot at the same time, what if it's just 55% - 65%?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 08 February 2018 - 11:23 PM.

[Bersigil]

So.... according to @Russ_Bullock the podcast on the balance changes has been recorded (at least 5hours ago).
Any updates on when it will be published?

[Kin3ticX]

Bersigil, on 08 February 2018 - 11:35 PM, said:

So.... according to @Russ_Bullock the podcast on the balance changes has been recorded (at least 5hours ago).
Any updates on when it will be published?

best to just see what they say from all the ruckus up to this point

[Kin3ticX]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

And which part of the community was that?

Its why i dont want PGI to directly use community ideas, especially not line by line from some spreadsheet. They just need to see the feedback to pick up on the level of traffic and disgruntlement and maybe come up with their own plan. I like to suggest stuff like the next person but PGI has never directly used any of it to my knowledge and I have posted lots of it over the years. That also means that baseless people with 20k posts probably also just get added to the same sea of noise.

[Tiewolf]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

Lol. The sensible part that knows what they were talking about and understands balance beyond "that killed me in my lore build, that must be OP" was against it.

If you would be sensible you could see the perspective of the recieving end. The "balance by community" movement is not all of the community. Honestly i belive it is a very tiny part of top players that cloak their agendas as what "the community" wants. Maybe they even believe in beeing the community because they only talk to each other.

I was very intusiastic for the changes but it is sad that the more i read here i realize that it is not about balance. It is about buffing weapons so that the impact of the top players in this game increases. Thats not balance or making different playstyles viable. Maybe Dane and company only want to achieve their fun not that of the whole community. Sure its fun for the b33f and his ordiance to see all the enemy players riped to pices. But for the ones riped apart with a lower skill then the b33f it is not fun. If you increase the weapon performance the skill gap and the influence of good players grows.

3 PPC/Gauss in the hands of a skilled player is unbearable and only fun for the top players. Thats why PGI banned that. It is unfun for the majority of the community. But i guess thats not you and all the others who argue to reverse this change, right?

Edited by Tiewolf, 09 February 2018 - 01:20 AM.

[Khobai]

Kin3ticX, on 09 February 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

I like to suggest stuff like the next person but PGI has never directly used any of it to my knowledge and I have posted lots of it over the years. That also means that baseless people with 20k posts probably also just get added to the same sea of noise.

Actually Ive made a few troll predictions that have later come true. About 2 months before it happened, I told people that gauss/ppc was going to get linked for ghost heat. Im not sure if PGI came up with it on their own or got the idea from my troll post and turned it into a self fulfilling prophecy. But it happened lol.

I have no regrets though. PPC/Gauss combinations are toxic for this game. Just like they were toxic in every other mechwarrior game. Remember mechwarrior 4? PPC/Gauss was toxic in that too.

And it was ERLLs that were toxic in MW3. Theyre toxic in MWO too. Its always the same weapons... the high damage long range weapons. Its not a coincidence.

The problem is caused by a breakdown in translation between battletech and mechwarrior. In battletech long range weapons suffered a huge +4 penalty to hit. Most of the time your weapons completely missed at long range. But in mechwarrior games if your aim was good those weapons always hit at long range. Combine that with the ridiculous x2 max range that those weapons shouldnt even have and you end up with a game thats clearly biased towards long range. Ghost heat and the gauss rifle charge limit of 2 is the only thing keeping it somewhat in check.

Edited by Khobai, 09 February 2018 - 01:22 AM.

[Bersigil]

Tiewolf, on 09 February 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:

If you would be sensible you could see the perspective of the recieving end. The "balance by community" movement is not all of the community. Honestly i belive it is a very tiny part of top players that cloak their agendas as what "the community" wants. Maybe they even believe in beeing the community because they only talk to each other.

I was very intusiastic for the changes but it is sad that the more i read here i realize that it is not about balance. It is about buffing weapons so that the impact of the top players in this game increases. Thats not balance or making different playstyles viable. Maybe Dane and company only want to achieve their fun not that of the whole community. Sure its fun for the b33f and his ordiance to see all the enemy players riped to pices. But for the ones riped apart with a lower skill then the b33f it is not fun. If you increase the weapon performance the skill gap and the influence of good players grows.

3 PPC/Gauss in the hands of a skilled player is unbearable and only fun for the top players. Thats why PGI banned that. It is unfun for the majority of the community. But i guess thats not you and all the others who argue to reverse this change, right?

But everybody can choose to become a good player, if they want. It is totally possible to learn to aim, to position, to pay attention to the minimap and to build a good mech.
On the other hand: You can not choose to have skill rewarded, if the game doesn't allow it.
I want people to have a choice. You seem to want to force your choice upon others

[iLLcapitan]

we need more people from the top 20.000 to comment on this topic

[Kin3ticX]

Khobai, on 09 February 2018 - 01:08 AM, said:

Actually Ive made a few troll predictions that have later come true. About 2 months before it happened, I told people that gauss/ppc was going to get linked for ghost heat. Im not sure if PGI came up with it on their own or got the idea from my troll post and turned it into a self fulfilling prophecy. But it happened lol.

I have no regrets though. PPC/Gauss combinations are toxic for this game. Just like they were toxic in every other mechwarrior game. Remember mechwarrior 4? PPC/Gauss was toxic in that too.

And it was ERLL that was toxic in MW3. Theyre toxic in MWO too. Its always the same weapons... the high damage long range weapons.

My guess its PGI Chris was trying to preempt Heavy PPC + Gauss combos so he or someone else just did a lazy blanket Gauss + PPC nerf.
You guys can believe whatever you want, but before civil war when they threw this nonsense in, Laser Vom and Gauss Vom were already pretty strong if not the strongest, especially in solo queue. Running Gauss 2xERPPC on a TBR, if the pugs all yolo'd in under 4-5min, there wasnt even enough time to make a big difference with such hot weapons.

As far as the combo being toxic, seems to me the pattern of nerf nerf nerf is the whole reason we have this level of player unrest in the first place. Balance was in better shape in early 2017.