1125 replies to this topic

[UnofficialOperator]

If we had a proper MM with proper tiers where the goods don't play with the bads then a lot of these debates are moot.

[The6thMessenger]

Tiewolf, on 09 February 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:

If you would be sensible you could see the perspective of the recieving end. The "balance by community" movement is not all of the community. Honestly i belive it is a very tiny part of top players that cloak their agendas as what "the community" wants. Maybe they even believe in beeing the community because they only talk to each other.

I was very intusiastic for the changes but it is sad that the more i read here i realize that it is not about balance. It is about buffing weapons so that the impact of the top players in this game increases. Thats not balance or making different playstyles viable. Maybe Dane and company only want to achieve their fun not that of the hole community. Sure its fun for the b33f and his ordiance to see all the enemy players riped to pices. But for the ones riped apart with a lower skill then the b33f it is not fun. If you increase the weapon performance the skill gap and the influence of good players grows.

3 PPC/Gauss in the hands of a skilled player is unbearable and only fun for the top players. Thats why PGI banned that. It is unfun for the majority of the community. But i guess thats not you and all the others who argue to reverse this change, right?

This.

I kinda even question how Tarogato would be fine pushing what they want the game to turn out, but if it's RAC that ain't meta, suddenly it's PGI's game and we have no bussiness. They didn't even acknowledged how RAC2 is completely anemic. Sure, it's velocity has been addressed, but that ain't enough as it's still a stare-down weapon that's not easy to lead. The RAC2 needs 2000 velocity, and RAC5 needs 1650 velocity. Is it because RACs couldn't be meta?

As for the ATMs problems on Lights and Mediums, the real issue is just the ridiculous close-range damage of the ATMs but they just want to keep it somehow, WTF? Isn't that the strength of ATM is it's tactical viability, but why is it heavily incentivized to be used close range? They want to keep the feature of melting heavier mechs close range, but the try hard fast lights and mediums safe, as if they doesn't already have the ability to go under 120m or go to cover quickly.

It reeks with agenda, but if it were universal to all classes by a basic change of damage to 2.4/2.0/1.6 with no minimum range than just buff for quick meds and lights, I'd get on board to this. In short, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Maybe i just misread his intentions, but seeing the current drafted changes, most of it is meta-izing the weapons. I just don't want that, I have agreements with some changes but until they address the RAC reliability and ATM's close-range damage, their "community" open-letter barely includes me.

Bersigil, on 09 February 2018 - 01:29 AM, said:

But everybody can choose to become a good player, if they want. It is totally possible to learn to aim, to position, to pay attention to the minimap and to build a good mech.
On the other hand: You can not choose to have skill rewarded, if the game doesn't allow it.
I want people to have a choice. You seem to want to force your choice upon others

Well, they seem to force their choice upon others too. I want skill to be rewarded sure, don't get me wrong, but with reason.

I honestly don't see much of the skill of fast lights and meds running around witlessly that much skillful with a homing weapon. likewise just getting close and dumping ATMs at their sweet spot that much skillful. It's a homing weapon after all, it's not like it's hard to aim -- bend it maybe.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 February 2018 - 02:00 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

The6thMessenger, on 09 February 2018 - 01:46 AM, said:

This.

I kinda even question how Tarogato would be fine pushing what they want the game to turn out, but if it's RAC that ain't meta, suddenly it's PGI's game and we have no bussiness. They didn't even acknowledged how RAC2 is completely anemic. Sure, it's velocity has been addressed, but that ain't enough as it's still a stare-down weapon that's not easy to lead. The RAC2 needs 2000 velocity, and RAC5 needs 1650 velocity. Is it because RACs couldn't be meta?

As for the ATMs problems on Lights and Mediums, the real issue is just the ridiculous close-range damage of the ATMs but they just want to keep it somehow, WTF? Isn't that the strength of ATM is it's tactical viability, but why is it heavily incentivized to be used close range? They want to keep the feature of melting heavier mechs close range, but the try hard fast lights and mediums safe, as if they doesn't already have the ability to go under 120m or go to cover quickly. In short, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Maybe i just misread his intentions, but seeing the current drafted changes, most of it is meta-izing the weapons. I just don't want that, I have agreements with some changes but until they address the RAC reliability and ATM's close-range damage, their "community" open-letter barely includes me.

I don't think PGI is going to pick apart the spreadsheet. Its more a focal point to gather the masses and force PGI to notice us. As far as being a rally point, its genius, but involving so many people starts to become a cluster you know what. Just a matter now of seeing if the podcast shows them capitulating or doubling down on whatever they've been trying to do for the last year.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 09 February 2018 - 01:55 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Kin3ticX, on 09 February 2018 - 01:54 AM, said:

I don't think PGI is going to pick apart the spreadsheet. Its more a focal point to gather the masses and force PGI to notice us. As far as being a rally point, its genius, but involving so many people starts to become a cluster you know what. Just a matter now of seeing if the podcast shows them capitulating or doubling down on whatever they've been trying to do for the last year.

I agree, getting the community to speak up for changes is amazing. But the changes themselves, it's like self-serving for the try-hards than actual balance.

I want to get on board with this, I do. But with their suggested changes tells me that it's not even in my best interest. Especially the lack of RAC address and keeping the unhinged unfun ATM damage while also at the same time favoring fast mechs.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 February 2018 - 02:03 AM.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Kin3ticX, on 09 February 2018 - 01:54 AM, said:

I don't think PGI is going to pick apart the spreadsheet. Its more a focal point to gather the masses and force PGI to notice us. As far as being a rally point, its genius, but involving so many people starts to become a cluster you know what. Just a matter now of seeing if the podcast shows them capitulating or doubling down on whatever they've been trying to do for the last year.

If we can even get them to acknowledge us its a victory. We have some of the worst lines of communication in ANY online game.

[iLLcapitan]

So, in other words. Theres this initiative from a bunch of experienced pilots to rebalance weapons and to make more weapons viable choices. They played comp, in which you see through a magnifying glass which weapons work and which don't. spoiler: it's only a handful that get used.

Now we're up to 18 pages, mostly consisting of a group of ~5 forumwarriors arguing with more reasonable people about this change and that, "but meh ATMs" "and what about my RAC, I'm clearly not represented here!!".

And instead of just leaving their oppinion like everybody else, keep SPAMMING their half witted oppinion again and again.
How is anybody supposed to read through this mess? How Selfish can one be... it all boils down to this:

The6thMessenger, on 09 February 2018 - 01:46 AM, said:

Maybe i just misread his intentions,

Yea, maybe you got no clue but please keep sharing your thoughts REGARDLESS.

Or maybe, just MAYBE start your own rebalance initiative, instead of pissing on this parade.

[A Headless Chicken]

iLLcapitan, on 09 February 2018 - 02:07 AM, said:

Now we're up to 18 pages, mostly consisting of a group of ~5 forumwarriors arguing with more reasonable people about this change and that, "but meh ATMs" "and what about my RAC, I'm clearly not represented here!!".

ｉｓｎ'ｔ　ｔｈａｔ　ｌｉｋｅ,　ｅｖｅｒｙ　ｔｈｒｅａｄ　ｏｎ　ｂａｌａｎｃｅ　ｏｖｅｒ　ｈｅｒｅ?

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

A Headless Chicken, on 09 February 2018 - 02:12 AM, said:

ｉｓｎ'ｔ　ｔｈａｔ　ｌｉｋｅ,　ｅｖｅｒｙ　ｔｈｒｅａｄ　ｏｎ　ｂａｌａｎｃｅ　ｏｖｅｒ　ｈｅｒｅ?

I really rallied around danes video, cuz Taro has always had my respect even when I thought Dane F'ed up royal, So I supported this whole thing to the max, thinking maybe just MAYBE. We could strike back against the endless nerfs and un-funing of the game.

I thought we would see the player base come together to stop the stupid. But it dont look like that. This just looks like 1 of a thousand threads russ looked up from his blow at and was like"LOLZ the ants are fighting"

[The6thMessenger]

iLLcapitan, on 09 February 2018 - 02:07 AM, said:

So, in other words. Theres this initiative from a bunch of experienced pilots to rebalance weapons and to make more weapons viable choices. They played comp, in which you see through a magnifying glass which weapons work and which don't. spoiler: it's only a handful that get used.

And instead of just leaving their oppinion like everybody else, keep SPAMMING their half witted oppinion again and again.
How is anybody supposed to read through this mess? How Selfish can one be... it all boils down to this:

Hmm, if they really think that i'm wrong, prove it. If they think that 3-Damage ATM close range is balanced or should remain overkill as such with good reason, tell it. If they think that RACs should remain unaddressed and unreliable, tell it.

That's the point of discussions. But if people like you aren't even open to things like this, maybe you should leave.

iLLcapitan, on 09 February 2018 - 02:07 AM, said:

Yea, maybe you got no clue but please keep sharing your thoughts REGARDLESS.

Lol ok.

iLLcapitan, on 09 February 2018 - 02:07 AM, said:

Or maybe, just MAYBE start your own rebalance initiative, instead of pissing on this parade.

Lol, you shouldn't be so touchy with RACs. It's just a rapid fire weapon.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 February 2018 - 02:29 AM.

[A Headless Chicken]

Johnathan Von Tanner, on 09 February 2018 - 02:22 AM, said:

I thought we would see the player base come together to stop the stupid. But it dont look like that. This just looks like 1 of a thousand threads russ looked up from his blow at and was like"LOLZ the ants are fighting"

Jokes and sarcasm aside, this is the reason the serious discussions between the spreadsheet masters are now mostly done on reddit rather than here.

I'd rather listen to others who play the game and use every weapon proficiently to know their pros and cons. This against someone random who has knee-jerk suggestions, and hasn't entered a private lobby to test how weapons work before. And before you say there's an agenda, everyone, MWO forums or reddit, has an agenda. These guys want some change to happen, and are hoping PGI will finally listen for once.

Edit: my crap grammar

Edited by A Headless Chicken, 09 February 2018 - 02:31 AM.

[Papaspud]

Sorry, but clan AC's- 2 ,5 being 1 ton less, and less slots, but same heat and fire rate= no balance, especially when they shoot the same 1 shell. Try again.

[Bud Crue]

Johnathan Von Tanner, on 08 February 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Glad to see that this noble thread is completely on topic, And that we are coming together as a community to petition our most honorable balance overlords to make mwo fun again.

I feel like somewhere right round page 16 Russ and co. looked at the thread and started laughing maniacally. Then they went to bed and sleep well, knowing he had nothing to worry about from us marks. His last thought before sleep took him was one of comfort; extreme, warming, lazy, comfort: "These people can't agree on a single weapon combo and they expect me to read a long list of rebalance ideas and then make changes accordingly? Now why would I bother with that?" He smiled and fell into a deep restful sleep. He never once dreamed of spreadsheets or pesky things like "community".

For me it was like watching hoped for change, die.

Edited by Bud Crue, 09 February 2018 - 03:06 AM.

[McValium]

Removed a load of nonsense fighting posts, keep any posting about balancing, not about the other player.

Edited by McValium, 09 February 2018 - 03:07 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

McValium, on 09 February 2018 - 03:07 AM, said:

[mod]Removed a load of nonsense fighting posts, keep any posting about balancing, not about the other player.[/mod]

PS:

iLLcapitan, on 09 February 2018 - 02:07 AM, said:

So, in other words. Theres this initiative from a bunch of experienced pilots to rebalance weapons and to make more weapons viable choices. They played comp, in which you see through a magnifying glass which weapons work and which don't. spoiler: it's only a handful that get used

...

Anyhoo

Bud Crue, on 09 February 2018 - 03:06 AM, said:

I feel like somewhere right round page 16 Russ and co. looked at the thread and started laughing maniacally. Then they went to bed and sleep well, knowing he had nothing to worry about from us marks. His last thought before sleep took him was one of comfort; extreme, warming, lazy, comfort: "These people can't agree on a single weapon combo and they expect me to read a long list of rebalance ideas and then make changes accordingly? Now why would I bother with that?" He smiled and fell into a deep restful sleep. He never once dreamed of spreadsheets or pesky things like "community".

For me it was like watching hoped for change, die.

People will have different views, and upon discussions those views clash, and disagreement happens. We can always just omit where the community is divided, and submit what the community is united with.

At least we got something good out of it right?

[sycocys]

One of the biggest problems with achieving balance arise from PGI and players are both hardlocked to this notion that certain mechanics (like lasers being focused for damage from 0m to intended range, but not beyond) need to be aligned with canon rules - but at the same time want to ignore all the counterbalancing mechanics like lack of perfect convergence, as well as energy draw and heat scale penalties.

Then you have the concept that access to something like the skill node system and consumables equates into balance because everyone has access at some point of playing, despite the fact that they have no balancing costs what so ever and in the case of these two things they are time or pay locked out which create incredible balance mismatches.

[Kamikaze Viking]

UnofficialOperator, on 09 February 2018 - 01:41 AM, said:

If we had a proper MM with proper tiers where the goods don't play with the bads then a lot of these debates are moot.

Yes, But these are separate problems , as my reddit flair says "PSR/MM & Balance are Separate Issues"
both need to be addressed, but not at the same time. weapon balance first. Fix PSR/XP second. Engine desync & or baseline quirks for bad mechs next. etc etc.

[tokumboh]

meteorol, on 09 February 2018 - 03:17 AM, said:

When "it could be used by cheaters" comes up in this regard, it's abundantly clear that the brown sea went full brown sea once again, and any meaningful balance discussion is over. Thread can be closed at this point.

And lets be honest here, we both know what's going on. Keeping the skill ceiling and thereby the skillgap as low as possible. All about safespaces. People still hoping for a singleplayer experience in a multiplayer game after 5 years.

Harsh words i know. Harsh truth, sadly.

It is not the IS Gauss/PPC that is the problem it is the 45/60 pinpoint damage of clans that seemed to be the issue
basically clan poptarting gauss/ppc

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

Johnathan Von Tanner, on 09 February 2018 - 01:59 AM, said:

We have some of the worst lines of communication in ANY online game.

I told you before Tanner but Gamersfirst, All Points Bulletin tops the crown in lack of communication.
Only communication is about sales, patches has basically been halted for over a year.
The Engine upgrade from unreal 3 to unreal 3,5 were the community is still waiting for since 2014, console release of All Points Bulletin was silent and people only noticed when someone from the forum community saw it in his list.

But uh I would love to see more NGNG podcasts with the PGI staff agree or not agree what they do it was a big plus to see a company actually taking time to explain stuff to their community.

[East Indy]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Tlords, on 08 February 2018 - 09:16 PM, said:

My one wish... kill laser vomit. The easy fix is to link mediums and large lasers. If you fire 2 clan ERLL and 1 ERML, its the same as firing 3 ERLL.

space those shots!

Sounds like a pretty dumb game.

In a pretty dumb game, one faction boats one weapon system most of the time for almost 4 years straight.

[lazytopaz]

Can we all just agree with the OP (wheter we like all of the changes or only some of em) and maybe try and push this forward.
Because at this point.
Any change is a good change.
Especially the one that includes a bigger picture and list of other objectives that will be looked at.

When I look at any other game that aspires to competetive gaming and/or it's existance relies entirely on player versus player interaction in it; usually has a monthly/weekly patch note list of changes/adjustements to the balance, gameplay, QoL, etc.
I'm talking about couple of A4 pages filled with changes done to the game.
Along with further improvements to the game itself and/or ongoing fleshing out its underwhelming branches.
Even when it feels like the meta has been established and the whole thing is working... game still gets either something new
or the meta is being changed in someway (up to the point of flipping the table).
Whilst PGI has somehow convinced us that everything is fine and patchnotes that should be sized in pages of changes every month or so, can be compared to a memo sized napkin written on a knee during the lunch.

So guys (and girls), you should really all put the differences that divide all of you and unite under a banner that is MWO. Because all of us like to play this game. That's the thing that we share above anything else. So for the good of the game itself all of you should stop the arguing just for once and just do what's right.
Unless you don't care about the game then why are you even here? Don't you have anything better or more fun to do?

Edited by lazytopaz, 09 February 2018 - 04:50 AM.