1125 replies to this topic

[dario03]

Humpday, on 09 February 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

I don't quite think its a good idea to bring back Gauss Peep to be honest...I mean me personally I'm ok with it, but the players I'm going to be shooting with it are not going to be happy...quite miserable in fact. I'm no crack shot by any means, but nailing someone 600m out with 40-50pts of damage when they cannot retaliate...i mean...come on.

On the flip side...i don't care to get one shot in my light mechs by someone who is ungodly with ppc/gauss. Dual heavy gauss is already scary enough...dont' need to add more power to that.

EDIT: never mind, appears some sort of update has occurred in the doc and the PPC/Gauss thing is now crossed out. Carry on, nothing to see here.

EDIT2: I didn't read it all the way through, it was a partial rollback.

it would only be a bad thing if there wasn't enough downsides to offset it. With enough downsides its no different than other long range builds, just get in close and out dps them. I think at least allowing a combo of 3 before crazy high ghost heat would be fine, still keep it high enough to stop 4 and see how that goes.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 February 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

If you raise the LGR charge limit to 3 then you have to balance the entire weapon system around using 3, which makes it suck when you want to use just 2 on something like a RIfleman or a Warhammer.

Maybe you're right. I thought LGR's excessive weight and anemic damage would make 2xLGR on a Rifleman or Warhammer a bad build. I ran a pair on a Marauder last night. Put up good damage but no kills. The ROF made it fun, but again, I think it's weight and damage make it already unbalanced in the direction of weakness. I don't know that it's a superior option to a single GR or HGR.

[Cy Mitchell]

OK. Maybe I am starting to see a pattern here. A certain group of people keep lobbying for the Gauss/PPC GH limit to be raised. They keep pointing to the huge laser vomit Alphas to justify that change saying that 35-50 FLPPD is not OP in the world of 78-91 laser vomit and Gauss vomit Alphas. I keep asking why those huge laser and Gauss Vomit Alphas are allowed to exist and why the problem was not addressed in this Community Weapons Balance Proposal. I keep getting totally ignored.

Could it be that the fact that it takes those Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit boats 2-3+ seconds to step out from behind cover, fire their laser, deal with the long duration burns and then step back into cover all the while presenting themselves as huge juicy targets for the proponents of increased FLPPD damage who can instantly deal their damage and duck back into cover be the reason why it is being ignored?

Hmmm, perhaps I should start lobbying against decreasing Gauss/PPC Ghost Heat restrictions and the subsequent increasing of FLPPD damage then so that those folks will actually want Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit addressed. You know, kind of like pulling a Rand Paul moment.

Anyway, I have added my suggestions and opinions to the discussion as requested by the OP. I will now wait until I can listen to Paul's podcast to see where this is going.

[Y E O N N E]

Mister Glitchdragon, on 09 February 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

Maybe you're right. I thought LGR's excessive weight and anemic damage would make 2xLGR on a Rifleman or Warhammer a bad build. I ran a pair on a Marauder last night. Put up good damage but no kills. The ROF made it fun, but again, I think it's weight and damage make it already unbalanced in the direction of weakness. I don't know that it's a superior option to a single GR or HGR.

I mean, you can comfortably run a pair of LGR and six ERML on a Warhammer at 64.8 kph. At a 46 alpha, compared to 50 using the standard Gauss and four ERML, it's not that bad since it also pushes damage out faster. Rifleman really needs to go XL to do similar (I run 3x ERML), but TBQH I haven't found the XL to be much of a drawback given the range and the cool-down quirks let it fire that much faster.

I do think the LGR is still a bit on the anaemic side. I think it's actually a very good complement right now for ERLL power-position, but that's just too niche. Raising the damage by 1 or 2 points and keeping the DPS around 3 or so by adjusting the cool-down would put it in a more generally useful place. At that point, though, I have to wonder why I should use the AC/10. Even with the higher DPS it would have, the lack of heat on the LGauss makes it a better companion for lasers. The only consistent use I can think of for the AC/10 is pairing with PPCs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Rampage, on 09 February 2018 - 10:36 AM, said:

OK. Maybe I am starting to see a pattern here. A certain group of people keep lobbying for the Gauss/PPC GH limit to be raised. They keep pointing to the huge laser vomit Alphas to justify that change saying that 35-50 FLPPD is not OP in the world of 78-91 laser vomit and Gauss vomit Alphas. I keep asking why those huge laser and Gauss Vomit Alphas are allowed to exist and why the problem was not addressed in this Community Weapons Balance Proposal. I keep getting totally ignored.

Could it be that the fact that it takes those Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit boats 2-3+ seconds to step out from behind cover, fire their laser, deal with the long duration burns and then step back into cover all the while presenting themselves as huge juicy targets for the proponents of increased FLPPD damage who can instantly deal their damage and duck back into cover be the reason why it is being ignored?

Hmmm, perhaps I should start lobbying against decreasing Gauss/PPC Ghost Heat restrictions and the subsequent increasing of FLPPD damage then so that those folks will actually want Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit addressed. You know, kind of like pulling a Rand Paul moment.

Anyway, I have added my suggestions and opinions to the discussion as requested by the OP. I will now wait until I can listen to Paul's podcast to see where this is going.

You are getting ignored because large alphas add another dynamic to the game aside from pure DPS, or Lurms, or brawl, or murm spam, etc. Some people like the rock paper scissors effect. Should everything else (aside from LRMs unless they rework the "noob tube" functionality) be equally as viable? Of course. That doesn't mean we have to kill the high alphas.

[Gas Guzzler]

Just to clarify, the proposal does reign in the alphas a bit. But if you go to far, then you end up having to nerf ballistics and PPCs and Gauss rifles and brawl builds to keep things balanced.. which is how you end up with the un-funning video. Most "kill laser vomit with fire" proposals don't seem to grasp how much that upsets the balance of the game.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 February 2018 - 10:57 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

You are getting ignored because large alphas add another dynamic to the game aside from pure DPS, or Lurms, or brawl, or murm spam, etc. Some people like the rock paper scissors effect. Should everything else (aside from LRMs unless they rework the "noob tube" functionality) be equally as viable? Of course. That doesn't mean we have to kill the high alphas.

Ah OK, I see. It is the old "The KDK-3 is OP, buff everything up to its level!" or the "The Deathstrike is OP, we need to buff everything up to compete!" justification. Yeah, I am out.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Rampage, on 09 February 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

Ah OK, I see. It is the old "The KDK-3 is OP, buff everything up to its level!" or the "The Deathstrike is OP, we need to buff everything up to compete!" justification. Yeah, I am out.

By Felicia.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Look what nerfing the Kodiak did lol. Its still one of the best dakkka platforms in the game. Spirit bears as brawlers tho? Not so much. Nerfs are not the answer.

[Kin3ticX]

if PGI power creeps the game, they need to spread that power creep fairy dust around on the less fortunate...or...apply crippling agility nerfs after sales dry up

[Gas Guzzler]

Rampage, on 09 February 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

Ah OK, I see. It is the old "The KDK-3 is OP, buff everything up to its level!" or the "The Deathstrike is OP, we need to buff everything up to compete!" justification. Yeah, I am out.

As I said in my second post, alphas are reigned in a bit by the proposal, by as much as 5 damage for a 2 HLL, 6ERML Supernova. But if you go too far then you end up having to nerf everything else.

If that doesn't change how you feel, then all I can say is MW5 will be out in a year.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 February 2018 - 11:09 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Oh you want build diversity by flat out removing a build from the game

Sniping builds havent been removed from the game though. Theyve simply evolved into different builds.

Gauss is still used for sniping. PPCs are still used for sniping.

They just arnt used together anymore.

Navid A1, on 09 February 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

So increase the GH limit on AC20s to 2?
yup, i agree with that!

The whole point of Gauss PPC is PPFLD, and low dps.
The point of AC20 is both PPFLD AND dps!
do you consider SRMs a weak weapon, becasue they are not PPFLD?
Close range weighs heavy towards dps.

Also, our agenda is making every play-style viable
Your's is to keep some dead!

You think G/PPC is the problem when you want to close the distance?
nope. the problem is the path you are taking... otherwise, ERLL spam is gonna give you more trouble.... you'll lose your leg in the open in no time!, while missed shots (due to convergence) gives you a better chance of closing in even in the open.

1) HGR and AC20 arnt really dps weapons. Theyre short range PPFLD weapons. As such they need to be stronger than long range PPFLD to justify their shorter range. long range PPFLD needs to stay capped at 30 damage so short range PPFLD can compete. otherwise the risk vs reward aspect just isnt there.

2) UAC20 is an example of a short range dps weapon. It does considerably more dps than the AC20 at the expense of PPFLD.

3) Not all close range weapons are DPS weapons. If the AC20 was a dps weapon it would need to do as much dps as the UAC20. It clearly doesnt. Becuase the purpose of the AC20 is PPFLD, not dps. Same with the HGR, its purpose is PPFLD, its not a dps weapon either.

4) Yes I believe SRMs are too weak. And they are largely overshadowed by MRMs. SRMs arnt weak because theyre not PPFLD though; theyre not supposed to be PPFLD, theyre supposed to be spread weapons. So trying to turn SRMs into PPFLD weapons by tightening their spread rather than making them good as spread weapons is counterintuitive. Same with MRMs, MRMS are meant to be spread weapons, so make them good as spread weapons, instead of trying to make them more like PPFLD weapons by tightening the spread. Missiles are supposed to spread out and hit different locations. But the ones that hit should do more damage.

The better way of fixing missiles is to leave the spread alone but increase the damage per missile. The same way that LBX, also a spread weapon, should be fixed.

Edited by Khobai, 09 February 2018 - 11:32 AM.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Khobai, on 09 February 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

4) Yes I believe SRMs are too weak. And they are largely overshadowed by MRMs.

What? SRMS are not weak at all. Why? Because you have to be thinking man enough to close to brawl range and not get rekted on the way?

And and murm damage is spread damage. spread damage is bad damage. If Im going into brawl range im taking srms over mrms. I dont care if the numbers are higher.

[mogs01gt]

Johnathan Von Tanner, on 09 February 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

What? SRMS are not weak at all. Why? Because you have to be thinking man enough to close to brawl range and not get rekted on the way?And and murm damage is spread damage. spread damage is bad damage. If Im going into brawl range im taking srms over mrms. I dont care if the numbers are higher.

SRM brawlers effectiveness is closely tied to map selection and team setup/performance. Which is way they have been considered weak for years now.

Edited by mogs01gt, 09 February 2018 - 11:27 AM.

[metallio]

Want to change the game for real?

Ditch convergence or

Eliminate damage drop off over the optimal range (i.e. IS ML is 270m, that's IT) and make everything chain fire.

https://www.reddit.c...update/dtzo5pz/

Too tired to retype or rethink the whole thing. Make a real change.

[Abisha]

after reading the changes i think i rater stick to PGI "unbalanced" weapons the buffs to small lasers is just WAY to much.
they already overpowered as it is.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

metallio, on 09 February 2018 - 11:30 AM, said:

Want to change the game for real?

Ditch convergence or

Eliminate damage drop off over the optimal range (i.e. IS ML is 270m, that's IT) and make everything chain fire.

https://www.reddit.c...update/dtzo5pz/

Too tired to retype or rethink the whole thing. Make a real change.

So kill the game?

[Khobai]

Quote

What? SRMS are not weak at all. Why? Because you have to be thinking man enough to close to brawl range and not get rekted on the way?

And and murm damage is spread damage. spread damage is bad damage. If Im going into brawl range im taking srms over mrms. I dont care if the numbers are higher.

1) if you hadnt noticed, this initiative is pushing to make long range PPFLD stronger. Which directly nerfs short range builds that have to close the distance.

2) its also buffing other longer ranged spread weapons like MRMs and LBX, but not buffing SRMs. That is a comparative nerf to SRMs.


As written, SRMs are not coming out of this balance initiative in a good place.


The agenda to bring back long range PPFLD at the expense of brawling is so transparently obvious that its laughable.

Edited by Khobai, 09 February 2018 - 11:42 AM.

[Tiewolf]

Bersigil, on 09 February 2018 - 01:29 AM, said:

But everybody can choose to become a good player, if they want. It is totally possible to learn to aim, to position, to pay attention to the minimap and to build a good mech.
On the other hand: You can not choose to have skill rewarded, if the game doesn't allow it.
I want people to have a choice. You seem to want to force your choice upon others

No you can't choose to become a good player. There is something like live, jobs, kids, a wife, the house and so on. If everybody could invest the time in this game like the top players you might be right if I discount disabilities or the available equipment. Becoming good or not is in the most cases not a choice at all! This is one of the very weak/false arguments that is only used by top players to justify their ways. I assume you have another T1 account? Don't you?

[Navid A1]

Rampage, on 09 February 2018 - 10:36 AM, said:

OK. Maybe I am starting to see a pattern here. A certain group of people keep lobbying for the Gauss/PPC GH limit to be raised. They keep pointing to the huge laser vomit Alphas to justify that change saying that 35-50 FLPPD is not OP in the world of 78-91 laser vomit and Gauss vomit Alphas. I keep asking why those huge laser and Gauss Vomit Alphas are allowed to exist and why the problem was not addressed in this Community Weapons Balance Proposal. I keep getting totally ignored.

Could it be that the fact that it takes those Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit boats 2-3+ seconds to step out from behind cover, fire their laser, deal with the long duration burns and then step back into cover all the while presenting themselves as huge juicy targets for the proponents of increased FLPPD damage who can instantly deal their damage and duck back into cover be the reason why it is being ignored?

Hmmm, perhaps I should start lobbying against decreasing Gauss/PPC Ghost Heat restrictions and the subsequent increasing of FLPPD damage then so that those folks will actually want Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit addressed. You know, kind of like pulling a Rand Paul moment.

Anyway, I have added my suggestions and opinions to the discussion as requested by the OP. I will now wait until I can listen to Paul's podcast to see where this is going.

The thing you are missing here is how different builds go against what.

Here is how different mechs SHOULD operate:

Brawlers:

• useless in long range
  
• can't stand in the open
  
• heat efficient
  
• Very high alpha AND dps (burst abd sustained) up close
  
• dependent on the chassis agility
  
• accessible to all weight classes
  

mid-range laser boats:

• weak at range
  
• can't stand in the open
  
• very high alpha
  
• excellent mid-range poking
  
• good in holding firing lines
  
• average dps
  
• low heat efficiency
  
• manageable in close range
  
• accessible to all weight classes

AC centric builds:

• massive sustained dps
  
• good alpha
  
• manageable heat
  
• manageable at long range
  
• manageable if moving in the open is a must
  
• mid-range area-denial platform
  
• require face time constantly
  
• generally requires heavy and assault mechs

Long range laser builds:

• High alpha at long range
  
• High burst dps at long range
  
• long range area-denial platforms
  
• manageable in the open
  
• low heat efficiency
  
• very weak at close range
  
• require face time
  
• accessible to mediums and upwards

Gauss + PPC combinations (excluding 2G+2P)

• Pinpoint damage
  
• minimum face time
  
• very strong at static trades
  
• low dps
  
• low heat efficiency depending on the build.
  
• heavily dependent on the platform's agility and JJs (considering size and and weight of the weapons)
  
• vulnerable to critical hits
  
• weak in the open
  
• weak in close range
  
• accuracy affected by convergence against moving targets
  
• requires assault mechs for a 3 combination

Gauss vomit mechs

• Best of both worlds from mid-range laser baoting and Gauss + PPC

ROCK, PAPER, SCISSORS

Edited by Navid A1, 09 February 2018 - 12:08 PM.