1125 replies to this topic

[Johnathan Tanner]

Tarogato, on 10 February 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

That could somewhat bring back 2gauss2ppc. At least, potentially on the Kodiak (though it would run too hot on the NTG for sure). I'd have to do maths to figure out how 2gauss2ppc would be affected. I have no clue off the top of my head. HelI, I remember proton running 2gauss3ppc on the Supernova before the nerf, and just chugging the ghost heat on that. It was effective. (lol, 60 PPFLD + 15 splash, with JJs)


RACs... heat is staying the same as we proposed (10% better), the spread is still gone, the velocity is going up slightly more than we proposed (1300 and 1800 perhaps), and the damage on RAC2s... well, Navid wants it up to 1.0 damage, which is a 25% increase in DPS which I think is just absurd and way too big for an "incremental change in the right direction." I'm trying to talk him down to 0.9 damage with is a 12.5% increase. Also, I'll bet you're regretting about now for typing your note in tiny text. Heh. =P

So this part of the initiative is dead.....?

[The6thMessenger]

Tarogato, on 10 February 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

That could somewhat bring back 2gauss2ppc. At least, potentially on the Kodiak (though it would run too hot on the NTG for sure). I'd have to do maths to figure out how 2gauss2ppc would be affected. I have no clue off the top of my head. HelI, I remember proton running 2gauss3ppc on the Supernova before the nerf, and just chugging the ghost heat on that. It was effective. (lol, 60 PPFLD + 15 splash, with JJs)

Well, people want it back, but much more people doesn't. So why don't we just compromise of it having it back, but is just moderately-hot than stupidly-hot? I think it's a win-win -- or at least not lose-lose.

Tarogato, on 10 February 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

RACs... heat is staying the same as we proposed (10% better), the spread is still gone, the velocity is going up slightly more than we proposed (1300 and 1800 perhaps), and the damage on RAC2s... well, Navid wants it up to 1.0 damage, which is a 25% increase in DPS which I think is just absurd and way too big for an "incremental change in the right direction." I'm trying to talk him down to 0.9 damage with is a 12.5% increase. Also, I'll bet you're regretting about now for typing your note in tiny text. Heh. =P

Look, it is supposed to be big -- because RAC2 is precisely too damn anemic in the first place. The problem is that RAC2 at it's GH limit is just weaker than the RAC5 at it's GH limit, and in addition the RAC2 has in fact weaker than AC5 long-term. I did calculation of these:

https://www.reddit.c...yaynay/dtzhtsw/

I was also saying that the RAC2 should also have 2.4 HPS to go with 1.0 damage to justify such change, unfortunately Navid didn't think it's necessary to do so.

If you're still doing the 8 ROF bit on-top of the 0.9 damage, perhaps it's workable in it's own when compared to AC2 and AC5. But it would still be behind RAC5 all things considering; 24 DPS for 20 tons versus 21.6 for a 24 tons isn't really that pretty to look at. At such a case, even if there's 3 GH limit for the RAC2, i doubt that it would be even sensible to build, not for it's weight.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 February 2018 - 08:04 PM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2018 - 07:53 PM, said:

but much more people doesn't. .

Im not sure about that. I think some people are just screaming REALLY loud from the back.

Edited by Johnathan Tanner, 10 February 2018 - 07:56 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 07:56 PM, said:

Im not sure about that. I think some people are just screaming REALLY loud from the back.

I felt that there's a lot more that opposed to this. After all they rolled back their partial-rollback. I could be wrong, but that's what it seemed.

[Johnathan Tanner]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

I felt that there's a lot more that opposed to this. After all they rolled back their partial-rollback. I could be wrong, but that's what it seemed.

I get that this is an issue of serious contention. The thing is that it seems to me that,Certain elements of this and the redit discussion have been absolutely spamming PPFLD hate speech. As if it will kill the game and they'll bill PGI for their psychiatric therapy costs. All it will do is open up an alternative to guass vomit. Considering the fire power on the field right now. That low risk high reward argument kinda breaks down in my mind. And most of the people ive talked to about this support un nerfing guass ppc. Why my experience differs from yours idk.

[Tarogato]

Sereglach, on 10 February 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

First, the damage added to the weapon takes it back to about how it was before Flamergeddon, when the weapon did 0.8 DPS. I recommend between 0.8 DPS to 1.0 DPS. This would allow it to at least compete as an "energy machine gun" seeing as they both fill similar niches as support weapons . . . wherein the MG uses ballistic hardpoints to shred crits and the Flamer would use energy hardpoints to inhibit cooling and/or build heat on the target. It's not a fundamental change to how the weapon's functioned in MWO, it's just restoring the damage it used to do and tuning it appropriately.

Secondly, the reason for lowering the Flamer's Heat DPS is to make it manageable and controllable as a sustained fire weapon, since you're getting rid of the exponential scaling mechanics and cooldown windows. To lay out how it all intertwines as best as I can without a massive essay:
[...]
The current 4.5 second firing window with ~7-9 second cooldown time (4.5 seconds of non-firing to start cooldown plus 3-4.5 seconds of cooling down) allows a target mech to cool off mostly any amount of heat applied to it during that time, which inherently makes all efforts to use the weapon meaningless, given the heat cost of shooting it vs. the net heat damage done.

Therefore, the massive 4.5 heat per second is the only thing to attempt to make any heat damage during this brief firing window meaningful . . . which it still fails at, overall, due to the cooldown time. Removing the firing window and the exponential scaling allows it to be a more consistent and easily balanced support weapon. In addition, because of the exponential acceleration of heat buildup and heat damage, this stacks among Flamers to send multiple Flamers into uncontrollable levels of heat and quick shutdowns for users, since targets cap at 90% heat and walk away to cooldown.

With the firing limits and exponential generation gone, 1 Flamer constantly stream-fired at 1.5 Heat DPS Negates the cooling of 10 DHS, but doesn't add heat. However, the shooter is building 1.0 HPS, negating about 6.5 of their heat sinks. This is manageable and controllable for a single weapon system; and functions more as a sustained "crowd control" weapon that it's intended to be.

On the other hand, the current 4.5, if left alone, would allow it to defeat up to 30 DHS and add massive heat to anything else. Therefore, lowing the value is needed. Again, the only reason PGI set the starting Heat DPS value to 4.5 was to try to make the heat inflicted by the weapon actually noticeable under the exponential scaling system; and this in turn got exploited with macros and created "Flamergeddon". The 4.5 second firing window attempts to keep it in check, but the 7-9 second cooldown window make the effects useless unless boated; but if you boat Flamers the exponential heat generation inflicts more heat on the shooter than the target, allowing them to easily shut themselves down.

The end results, however, are much more balanced and consistent. You cannot macro-spam a Flamer and prevent heat buildup while inflicting infinite amounts of heat damage (Flamergeddon). In addition, the heat DPS becomes as controlled as any other facet of the weapon, open to small tuning adjustments that have controlled impact. Weapon usage is also not limited to a 4.5 second firing window with an ~7-9 second cooldown, which makes it more readily employed by any level of play instead of managing an incredibly short firing window with a punishing cooldown system.
[...]
The short version is that without exponential scaling and extreme cooldown conditions, while permitting sustained fire at flat fixed values, you don't need an absurd heat damage of 4.5 to get something done. 1 Flamer is a mild annoyance, 2 is a modest deterrent, and 3-4+ become a threat. Most importantly, it becomes more balanced and easily tuned.

In regards to the exponential scaling, PGI themselves stated it as such (some of the oldest patch notes I can find on the subject are 21 May 2013 when they changed the rates of exponential heat generation and again in 17 Sep 2013 when they tried to actually make the Flamer cause more heat than it generated, which still didn't work). This can also be seen by just taking a single flamer mech into testing grounds with as many heat sinks as you can fit on it (I think some assaults can get something like 60+ SHS on them), and just hold down the trigger . . . you can watch the exponential acceleration happen in real time, both for yourself and (if you use a private match) the victim. McGral18's old video showcases this problem perfectly: HERE. XML tuning can easily just shut off this facet and allow for real balancing.

The "effectscale" attribute I believe is the seed with which it grows by. Making the XML changes to just turn off exponential scaling allows weapon tuning to be actually tuned without instantly flipping the weapon's effects from useless (pre and post Flamergeddon) to game-breaking OP (Flamergeddon). Thus a reason for setting it to 0 and not just lowering it. We want tuning to be manageable tuning . . . not sending the weapon into wild swings of OP or Junk.

My fine sir, the fact that you wrote a 900-word post just to explain the reasoning behind your suggestion is not really helping your case when I'm just looking for simple weapon tunes.

[The6thMessenger]

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 08:11 PM, said:

I get that this is an issue of serious contention. The thing is that it seems to me that,Certain elements of this and the redit discussion have been absolutely spamming PPFLD hate speech. As if it will kill the game and they'll bill PGI for their psychiatric therapy costs. All it will do is open up an alternative to guass vomit. Considering the fire power on the field right now. That low risk high reward argument kinda breaks down in my mind. And most of the people ive talked to about this support un nerfing guass ppc. Why my experience differs from yours idk.

Well, it could now compete with Gauss Vomit and Laser vomit -- what about the other builds? If we do that, then it would just be Gauss PPC vs Laser Vomit vs Gauss Vomit in the meta, it's still a boring poke-fade-oriented balance. If we curb the Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit instead, it should bring viability to the rest of the builds instead.

Sure, it may not kill the game -- but it will won't be in the right step.

[Sereglach]

Tarogato, on 10 February 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

My fine sir, the fact that you wrote a 900-word post just to explain the reasoning behind your suggestion is not really helping your case when I'm just looking for simple weapon tunes.

You wanted to know the why, so I gave you the why as briefly as I could. I can't help it that PGI put the Flamer into a convoluted mess with their exponential mechanics, firing windows, and abstract cooldowns. Regardless, if you don't care about the why and just want the briefest version possible, it's as simple as this:

- Set all of the XML attributes that revolve around the exponential scaling and firing/cooldown windows to zero (thereby disabling it).

- Set Damage to 0.8 - 1.0 to return it to pre-Flamergeddon values and make it more competitive with similar weapons in class.

- HPS Generation becomes 1.0 HPS flat with exponential mechanics disabled.

- Reduce Heat DPS to 1.5 - 2.0 to make it manageable and easily tuned as the sustained fire weapon it was originally designed to be.

Results cause the Flamer to be the sustained fire weapon it was originally designed as and make all stats able to be tuned without wild swings into game-breaking OP (like Flamergeddon) or completely useless (like it is now).

[Johnathan Tanner]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2018 - 08:20 PM, said:

Well, it could now compete with Gauss Vomit and Laser vomit -- what about the other builds?

Buff up other the other weapons systems to be viable counters. If a SRM brawler mech pushes right across the ditch on frozen. Guass PPC will rip him up, As will guass vomit, As will lasor vomit.(And he deserves it) But if the brawler is smart he will move from cover to cover. Get himself into position to push said ranged mech.

Whats important is that when the brawler gets to the fight he has a good and useful weapon system. As for lurms I really dont know. Outside of a few niche situations they are pretty worthless expect for area denial and keeping peoples heads down in my tier, I literally cant remember the last time I died to lurms in QP. RACS are trash for there face time to damage. Ultras are superior in every way.

[The6thMessenger]

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 08:42 PM, said:

Buff up other the other weapons systems to be viable counters.

Why is it imperative to buff the rest than just nerf one overperformer? Wouldn't that be simpler? If we buff the rest of the builds, the global TTK would go down, as opposed of a few isolated builds.

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 08:42 PM, said:

If a SRM brawler mech pushes right across the ditch on frozen. Guass PPC will rip him up, As will guass vomit, As will lasor vomit.(And he deserves it) But if the brawler is smart he will move from cover to cover. Get himself into position to push said ranged mech.

Whats important is that when the brawler gets to the fight he has a good and useful weapon system. As for lurms I really dont know. Outside of a few niche situations they are pretty worthless expect for area denial and keeping peoples heads down in my tier, I literally cant remember the last time I died to lurms in QP. RACS are trash for there face time to damage. Ultras are superior in every way.

What you describe is precisely just normal, that's what we already do, i honestly don't think that's even necessary to point it out.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 February 2018 - 09:03 PM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2018 - 08:49 PM, said:

Why is it imperative to just nerf one overperformer than buff the rest? Wouldn't that be simpler?



What you describe is precisely just normal, i honestly don't think that's even necessary, that's what we already do.

To be real, lasers are the baseline weapon in this game. When in doubt. Take lasers, Any hardcore nerf to lasers is actually a stealth nerf to everything else. So to reign in gauss vomit, You want to do it by nerfing lasers? K, laser vomit just got rekt. All hail gauss boat meta. Nerf gauss to counter this? K, Gauss just got rekt. All hail laser vomit meta. Now we just have gauss vomit 2.0. A slower crappy'er form of gauss vomit.

As for you saying poke and fade is boring meta. IDK man poke and fade has been the meta in EVERY fps since doom. You will never change that EVER. But what can be done is make other weapons alternatives viable counters against the dominate one thu buffs. So while gauss vomit will always be king. He wont have so much control of the field that every other build type is screwed.

Gauss PPC is a viable alternative to gauss vomit. But its still inferior in sheer damage output.

Edited by Johnathan Tanner, 10 February 2018 - 09:14 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 09:05 PM, said:

To be real, lasers are the baseline weapon in this game. When in doubt. Take lasers, Any hardcore nerf to lasers is actually a stealth nerf to everything else.

So you mean, we end up nerfing everything anyways? How so? Couldn't we just nerf the components -- say large-lasers? Or what about just lower the ghost-heat cap to curb alphas? Have the C-ERMLs hit GH at 5+ or 6+, or maybe link it so that GH is reached.

And it doesn't have to be hardcore nerfs, it just have to be nerfs. And even if it "nerfs" everything else, builds that are dependent on lasers more would be hit harder, and less dependent softer so it still achieves a NET boost in the position of weapons in the power-curve.

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 09:05 PM, said:

So to reign in gauss vomit, You want to do it by nerfing lasers? K, laser vomit just got rekt. All hail gauss boat meta. Nerf gauss to counter this? K, Gauss just got rekt. All hail laser vomit meta. Now we just have gauss vomit 2.0. A slower crappy'er form of gauss vomit.

That's really exaggerated. Laser vomit doesn't have to get rekt, just put in line. Is any nerf really just going to destroy it? Or can we find a good compromise of nerf?

How would Gauss-Boats dominate again? Won't we have Autocannons to fill in the power-vacuum? What about SRMs?

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 09:05 PM, said:

As for you saying poke and fade is boring meta. IDK man poke and fade has been the meta in EVERY fps since doom. You will never change that EVER.

It being boring is kind of subjective, i admit. However, it's irrelevant whether people have been doing this for so long, or if they were just doing this lately. If anything, people doing it over and over left it stale and unimaginative -- thus boring. I think what you mean is it's effective therefore it's still being used.

And even so, current doom iteration -- the 2016 version, ditched the poke and fade for the push-forward combat. So yeah, just changed.

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 09:05 PM, said:

But what can be done is make other weapons alternatives viable counters against the dominate one thu buffs. So while gauss vomit will always be king. He wont have so much control of the field that every other build type is screwed.

Reigning in the over-performing builds could also work, wouldn't it result of it being still a king because it works best but just less powerful that it doesn't screw other builds over? It's just a question of how much are we going to lower the throne and our target distance of effectiveness between builds. You answer hyperbolically as if what we (I) want is totally wreck the Vomits, no i don't, i want to curb it's power just-enough.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 February 2018 - 09:35 PM.

[naterist]

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

That thing zero back armor aside would live long enough to fire MAYBE 3 times. IDK about you, But id rather have more ammo and a useful level of speed. Good troll build tho.

lol, troll comment is obvious troll comment. thats the meta annihilator with the mpls replaced with a snubnose for more pinpoint damage.

[Johnathan Tanner]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2018 - 09:23 PM, said:

Reigning in the over-performing builds could also work, wouldn't it result of it being still a king because it works best but just less powerful that it doesn't screw other builds over? It's just a question of how much are we going to lower the throne and our target distance of effectiveness between builds. You answer hyperbolically as if what we (I) want is totally wreck the Vomits, no i don't, i want to curb it's power just-enough.

I guess its a matter of perspective, Compared to just a few years ago, I see a lame boring game, With a stagnate meta and boring build diversity. After all the dircect nerfs and skill tree related mobility nerfs this game plays in slow motion.With everybody taking every armor and structure node thinking that will let them facetank the world. I saw a black jack 1-x in a match today. I laughed and 1 shoted him thru a side torso. 2 years ago i would have been like "oh **** black jack!" Even in the deathstrike I was in. Machingun light cancer meta? Yeah I want everything buffed except gauss vomit.

[The6thMessenger]

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:

I guess its a matter of perspective, Compared to just a few years ago, I see a lame boring game, With a stagnate meta and boring build diversity. After all the dircect nerfs and skill tree related mobility nerfs this game plays in slow motion.With everybody taking every armor and structure node thinking that will let them facetank the world. I saw a black jack 1-x in a match today. I laughed and 1 shoted him thru a side torso. 2 years ago i would have been like "oh **** black jack!" Even in the deathstrike I was in. Machingun light cancer meta? Yeah I want everything buffed except gauss vomit.

Well, i don't. I'd rather have over-performers reigned in.

It's a walking-tank game, not a fragile-human game. If i wanted a game where everyone dies quickly, i'd go with any of the spunkgargleweewees. But i want a game that i feel the armor, that it's not a fragile human body but a strong walking tank. So the BJ being evicerated by DS, while i would point out that the problem is actually the gauss-vomit that's made too powerful, a BJ being 45-tonner Medium not being able to toe to to with DS that is a 90-tonner Assault -- that sounds about right.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 February 2018 - 10:20 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Navid A1, on 10 February 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

Then tell them to come here or on reddit and voice their opinion.
we had to retreat from our initial GH limit of 3 for Gauss + PPC combos because 4 people spammed fear mongering posts!

You rolled it back?

I can no longer endorse this balance update.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 February 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

You rolled it back?

I can no longer endorse this balance update.

Seconded......

[Wizywig]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2018 - 10:25 PM, said:

And if i wanted to die in a real tank, i'd join the army for real.




And the thing is that, people being easily killed with little effort isn't fun for others.

IMO This is why I think head armor should be removed entirely and head should just be CT. Headshots are not very often intentional, and just ruin the game.

[Gas Guzzler]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

Hey Tarogato, could we just compromise on -50% less heat penalty instead of increasing GH limit of the Gauss PPC?

For example, 2x PPC + Gauss on a Timberwolf with 17 DHS gets at 75% when shot altogether, while simply shooting the 2x PPC get at 45%. Would it be okay to just make it so that 2x PPC + Gauss gets at 60%?

Also, what's the state of the RAC changes on your current draft? Was Navid A1's changes were accepted?

Night Gyr would be viable. Timber Wolf with 2 ER PPC and Gauss would still suck balls.

[ROSS-128]

Just be glad we don't have through armor criticals, knockdown rolls, or running on pavement rolls. Those three things sometimes killed more mechs than straight HP loss.