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A Community-Driven Balance Update


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#681 Fleeb the Mad

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 11:39 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 10 February 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:


You rolled it back?

I can no longer endorse this balance update.


Do we really forget the sins of the past so easily? Gauss + 2 PPC was also the favourite flavour during the poptart meta days. Responsible for the charge-up mechanic and the nerfing of PPC velocity into uselessness. Trying to balance them as a combination always, always caused problems. It was difficult to make them useful individually without making the combination too strong and vice-versa.

If you look at most ghost heat limitations on the long range weapons, they tend to cap out at 30 damage. Two gauss rifles, two cERPPCs, three ER LLas, then further down to two cERLLas, two ER PPC.

There's no good reason to put Gauss + 2 PPC as a special case with a special advantage. It would follow if you did that it would be sensible to increase ghost heat groups for ER PPC/cER PPC to 3 and ER LLas to plus one as well. Neither of those are as effective as Gauss + Anything because of heat, but this would be the foundation of a campaign to reduce long-range ghost heat groupings for more powerful alphas.

I'm not cool with that honestly. Fighting at long range with poke trading is rather too easy in MWO in terms of risk/reward. Given that nobody who's been a proponent of this Gauss + PPC thing has been pushing for any of the competing long range groups to be improved, I can only take it as people just wanting the power combo back. It promotes gameplay that I personally find terribly stale. No thanks.

#682 The6thMessenger

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 11:40 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 10 February 2018 - 10:51 PM, said:

Night Gyr would be viable. Timber Wolf with 2 ER PPC and Gauss would still suck balls.


It's better than nothing. Besides, 2 things; TBR needs a bit of it's old mobility back, and it's actually pretty good at other builds already.

#683 Khobai

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 11:43 PM

View PostJohnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

So to reign in gauss vomit, You want to do it by nerfing lasers? K, laser vomit just got rekt. All hail gauss boat meta. Nerf gauss to counter this? K, Gauss just got rekt. All hail laser vomit meta. Now we just have gauss vomit 2.0. A slower crappy'er form of gauss vomit.


lol you act like theres not room to nerf CERML

it does 7 damage for 1 ton. thats crazy high damage per tonnage. it can certainly go down to 6 damage, and it would STILL be better than ISERML, which only does 5 damage.

lowering CERML from 7 to 6 damage isnt going to rek anything. just balance it better vs IS.

and it nerfs both laser vomit and laser/gauss at the same time so its not going to favor one over the other like youre claiming. both laser vomit and gauss/laser will still get used.

Edited by Khobai, 10 February 2018 - 11:51 PM.


#684 Troa Barton

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 12:27 AM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 10 February 2018 - 08:26 AM, said:

actually it wouldnt, if you Doubled LRM velocity LRMs would move threw AMS range twice as fast,
which means Doubling AMS damage would actually null the Effect, the balance between the 2 would not change,
-
if a single AMS doesnt hurt small LRM Launchers now(LRM5/10) then it wont hurt them after,
(the Proposed doubling of all nonLRM health, is to again offset the Increased Damage of AMS)



1) increasing the Cooldown of LRMs could make them Less Spammy,
as you cant chain fire them as well, or it would cost more in Launchers(8LRM5 need vs only 5-6 now)

2) by increasing the Cooldown Players will have to choose their shots more carefully,
adding to skill of the weapon, as you have to choose your engagements more so then now,

3) doubling their Velocity will make them more reliable as a weapon system,
AMS changes(x2damage) and increasing nonLRM missile health(x2Health) are to keep Missile/AMS balance)


its true doing those 3 things will make LRMs better, but not OP,
Homing weapons can be skill weapons it treated right,


A single AMS does hurt small launchers now, what you aren't taking into account is that AMS does its damage to incoming missiles within ~2 seconds. Where as LRM velocity is taking into account the entire flight path of several seconds. It's not a one to one comparison. Twice the DPS within two seconds is greater than what the velocity buff would give LRMs. If there is another person with AMS none of the missiles will hit the target nothing less than an LRM 20 would do anything.

Spamming missiles is another characteristic of the weapon.. Area denial and suppression are part of what LRMs are used for. Everyone thinks there is no skill with LRMs but there are plenty of way to use them without doing damage. Spamming missiles at an annihilator puts them into cover before a push, sending a volley on occasion keeps the incoming missile alert sounding. Keep that annihilator out of the fight and your front line can create an advantage. Once you have that advantage you can move on to targets you will do damage to.
See a lone assault trying to catch up with their team? Hold them down out of position so your lights can jump him.
Have a sniper keeping your brawlers from pushing up? Throw an alpha at him, he'll duck into cover from the missiles.
See someone flanking? Rain hellfire down.
Someone standing in cap and can't get a lock? Dumb fire missiles all over the capture point to either scare them off or stop the capture.
See the enemy about to NASCAR around on you? Chuck a missile at everyone you can to slow them down so that they either get stopped in their tracks or they come in one at a time. (In this example you don't hold the target, you fire once each to give them the missile warning and that's it)
See someone trying to sneak up on you? Drive them to cover and keep them there while you relocate.

Those are a few examples of why cooldown is important for missiles, they are an area denial / suppression weapon.

Choosing your targets carefully is already important for LRMs making them "less spammy" does not help LRMs to be more effective. Arguably it makes them worse because you would not be able to use their strength of area denial since switching targets requires a fast cooldown.

Homing weapons are skill weapons just not in the traditional sense.

#685 UnofficialOperator

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 12:54 AM

From my other thread:

What is interesting is that instead of dedicating time and effort towards fixing/resetting PSR which will have the MOST EFFECT on EVERYONE'S Player Experience at 1 fell swoop, we are instead focusing on little minute changes which will not make a difference to almost anyone.

So what if "insert weapon here" runs a little hotter/cooler/faster/slower here when no one has the data except PGI to even think about the aggregation of marginal gains??? Instead with little tweaks here and there, the game becomes more and more complex and impossible to balance.

And about that LRM remark guy. Please you don't know where I come from. LRMs are pretty ****** in the upper tiers and I think they could do with a buff. IMO, another way they could balance weapons or LRMs etc would simply to give increasing damage resistance to the lower tiers and maybe multiply the damage of LRMs in T1 matches. This is such a simpler way to balance rather than to either BALANCE by Potato or Balance by Comp.

PS: Weapon diversity is important. But it is kind of pointless when changes to 1 variable just escalates the complexity of the whole balance issue. Solve PSR first then balance weapons on a per tier basis.

PSS: The only reason you guys are getting pushback about possible gauss ppc issues would be from the fake T1s or the bads. Once you fix the PSR, just let the T1s and above have their gauss ppcs and leave the lower tiers without it.

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 11 February 2018 - 01:11 AM.


#686 Navid A1

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:01 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 10 February 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:


You rolled it back?

I can no longer endorse this balance update.


Still discussing it

Speaking for myself here... I will not surrender just because 4 people are having nightmares about a time when many of the current factors were not even in the game.

Gauss+PPC builds were dead even before the ghost heat.

Agility nerfs killed them.

Edited by Navid A1, 11 February 2018 - 01:01 AM.


#687 PocketYoda

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:03 AM

View PostBombast, on 10 February 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

I hate to derail, but I just feel to the need to share a thought: I find it interesting that MWO (PGI proper and the playerbase) continues to get slammed every time it tries to balance TT game values into a first person shooter environment that simply cannot support said values and still be playable, but HBS's Battletech gets cheers for adding game mechanics, simplifying how gameplay works, and modifying weapon values, despite it basically being a TT game in a computer.

Guess all the lore diehards play MWO and not Battletech. Interesting indeed.

I don't usually but i agree here.. I don't want to forget battletech but this game isn't doing well following the diehard purists..

#688 Dago Red

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:36 AM

View PostNavid A1, on 11 February 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:


Still discussing it

Speaking for myself here... I will not surrender just because 4 people are having nightmares about a time when many of the current factors were not even in the game.

Gauss+PPC builds were dead even before the ghost heat.

Agility nerfs killed them.



Count one for the 2PPC one gauss set up is fine but 2 gauss one ppc is less so camp here. Heat is enough of a limiting factor for erpeeps.

Though if we could get good jump jets back in exchange then all that could stay dead. Outside the scope of this maneuver though I know.

#689 Y E O N N E

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:46 AM

View PostNavid A1, on 11 February 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:


Still discussing it

Speaking for myself here... I will not surrender just because 4 people are having nightmares about a time when many of the current factors were not even in the game.

Gauss+PPC builds were dead even before the ghost heat.

Agility nerfs killed them.


I just want to point out that agility nerfs are a major contributor to the "unfunning" that this whole letter is trying to address.

I also want to suggest you look at tweaking ghost heat groupings to make IS more competitive without necessarily having to directly buff or nerf an individual weapon, e.g. ER/MedLas to 7 or 8 or cERML down to 4 or 5.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 11 February 2018 - 01:56 AM.


#690 The6thMessenger

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:58 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 01:46 AM, said:


I just want to point out that agility nerfs are a major contributor to the "unfunning" that this whole letter is trying to address.

I also want to suggest you look at tweaking ghost heat groupings to make IS more competitive without necessarily having to directly buff or nerf an individual weapon, e.g. ER/MedLas to 7 or 8 or cERML down to 4 or 5.


Yeah, im actually down with that. Lets reduce C-ERML GH limit to 5, and IS-MLs to 7, that way they are both 35 damage.

Also can we increase IS ER/SN/STD PPC and LL/ERLL/LPL GH to 3? and IS LPPC to 4? I mean, IS tech is already heavier while Clan is lighter while also dealing more damage.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 February 2018 - 02:01 AM.


#691 H I A S

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 02:02 AM

Hey guys, what happened to Gauss PPC? Dont wanna have a higher skill ceiling combo back in game?

#692 Lionheart2012

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 02:42 AM

View PostKhobai, on 10 February 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:


ISXL needs to survive side torso blowout (and we can buff LFE and STD engines appropriately to make that work)



This would be a significant deviation from lore where destruction of three critical slots in an engine is considered a destruction of the 'mech. Rather than this and the inherent buffs you suggest that would be needed for standard engines and LFEs, further complicating balance, let's instead make the ISXL more rugged with greater hit points. This has some precedent as the hit points of clan components are less than that of their typically bulkier IS counterparts.

[color=#222222]

View PostKhobai, on 10 February 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

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and IS ES/FF should be where IS get their structure/armor quirks from rather than getting them for free.



This needs to be fleshed out more. Are you indicating that for the Atlas to receive its structure bonuses, it should mount endo steel, and for the Highlander Heavy Metal to receive its armor buff, it must mount ferro fibrous armor? That sounds like a nerf to the Inner Sphere because of the 14 critical slots necessary to mount either endo steel or ferro fibrous armor. Additionally, would it be a static x% bonus to armor or structure or would it be particular to the mech variant?

#693 Khobai

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 02:44 AM

Quote

This would be a significant deviation from lore


weve already significantly deviated from lore. lore doesnt let you perfectly converge all your weapons into one location. hit locations are random in battletech.

thats the reason ISXL is so terrible in MWO. because you can aim for XL side torsos and have all your weapons hit it.

thats why ISXL should survive side torso blowout like CXL. so players cant just pinpoint alpha your side torso to kill you.

besides I could just as easily argue that IS mechs arnt supposed to have more health than clan mechs, thats not lore either. IS mechs and clan mechs should have the same health if were going by lore. thats why all the IS superquirks need to be removed.

Quote

This needs to be fleshed out more. Are you indicating that for the Atlas to receive its structure bonuses, it should mount endo steel, and for the Highlander Heavy Metal to receive its armor buff, it must mount ferro fibrous armor?


No, I was specifically referring to the base amount of structure quirks all IS mechs get inherently just for being IS mechs.

Not the extra structure/armor quirks some mechs like the Atlas get on top of that. Those quirks are there for different reasons.

View PostNavid A1, on 11 February 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:


Still discussing it

Speaking for myself here... I will not surrender just because 4 people are having nightmares about a time when many of the current factors were not even in the game.

Gauss+PPC builds were dead even before the ghost heat.

Agility nerfs killed them.


Working as intended. The agility nerfs were meant to kill off ppc/gauss mechs like the night gyr and marauder IIC.

Admittedly having both agility nerfs and linking gauss+PPC was a tad excessive.

The way I see it we can have gauss+PPC back or we can have agility back. But we cant have both.

I would rather have agility back. Better agility would make the game more fun than having long range PPFLD alphas flying around again.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 03:04 AM.


#694 Troa Barton

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 02:46 AM

View PostUnofficialOperator, on 11 February 2018 - 12:54 AM, said:

From my other thread:

What is interesting is that instead of dedicating time and effort towards fixing/resetting PSR which will have the MOST EFFECT on EVERYONE'S Player Experience at 1 fell swoop, we are instead focusing on little minute changes which will not make a difference to almost anyone.

So what if "insert weapon here" runs a little hotter/cooler/faster/slower here when no one has the data except PGI to even think about the aggregation of marginal gains??? Instead with little tweaks here and there, the game becomes more and more complex and impossible to balance.

And about that LRM remark guy. Please you don't know where I come from. LRMs are pretty ****** in the upper tiers and I think they could do with a buff. IMO, another way they could balance weapons or LRMs etc would simply to give increasing damage resistance to the lower tiers and maybe multiply the damage of LRMs in T1 matches. This is such a simpler way to balance rather than to either BALANCE by Potato or Balance by Comp.

PS: Weapon diversity is important. But it is kind of pointless when changes to 1 variable just escalates the complexity of the whole balance issue. Solve PSR first then balance weapons on a per tier basis.

PSS: The only reason you guys are getting pushback about possible gauss ppc issues would be from the fake T1s or the bads. Once you fix the PSR, just let the T1s and above have their gauss ppcs and leave the lower tiers without it.


LRMs are fine in high tier, there are several reasons why they suffer in performance the higher the tier you go.

Enemies frankly have more skill.
They use cover, AMS, ECM, they are a better shot, have better target prioritization, better positioning, more awareness, ect.
People take larger engines, your time to deal damage is shorter when enemies can hop from cover to cover more quickly.
The biggest reason is that more people are running meta builds. The meta is ranged gauss/laser combos pinpoint, high alpha, peeking mechs are the counter to LRMs. They can do damage to you in a matter of seconds, but they will be behind cover or unlocked before you can deal damage back.

If you buff them in order to compete with their counter they will be overpowered against everything else.

They are balanced as they are with only a small and i mean a small buff to low tube count launchers.
A heat reduction would be nice, a velocity buff would make them more useful at longer ranges but if you go a hair too far they will be overpowered.

A sliding damage scale is the worst idea I have ever heard.. Lets do the same for gauss rifes where they do reduced damage at high tiers.. See how awful that sounds? A weapon should do the same thing in every tier.

Reigning in over performing mid-long range laser gauss meta mechs will buff LRMs without needing to change them.

#695 H I A S

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 02:49 AM

View PostKhobai, on 11 February 2018 - 02:44 AM, said:

The way I see it we can have gauss+PPC back or we can have agility back. But we cant have both.


Why?

#696 EnochsBook

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:01 AM

View PostWizywig, on 10 February 2018 - 10:44 PM, said:

IMO This is why I think head armor should be removed entirely and head should just be CT. Headshots are not very often intentional, and just ruin the game.

I disagree for the one reason that headshots are the ultimate tool for punishing an overheating opponent. If you're brawling with someone who's mostly fresh and there's no way you can get through their armor before they kill you and they overheat, you can take 1 second to aim for their cockpit and alpha it as they are standing still.

Makes overheating in combat even more of a risk.

#697 Khobai

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:09 AM

Quote

Why?


because pre-agility nerf night gyrs with ppc/gauss were superior to everything else in the game

and I have no desire to recreate that situation


we can have agile night gyrs and better jumpjets

or we can have night gyrs with long range PPFLD

but we cant go back to agile night gyrs with better jumpjets AND long range PPFLD

it was overpowered. it was unfun. and it was nerfed in the first place for a reason.

although it was overnnerfed, so we can undo one nerf, but not both.

Quote

I disagree for the one reason that headshots are the ultimate tool for punishing an overheating opponent.


If it only punished overheating opponents that would be fine. But headshots can kill you when youre not overheating too. Headshots are always a risk, just more of a risk when you overheat.

I could see a compromise like disabling headshots unless youre shut down. Because I do think shutting down should have consequences. But I dont think an assault mech thats not shut down should ever get one-shotted to death.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 03:21 AM.


#698 lazorbeamz

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:16 AM

The game can only be balanced around brawling. Poke weapons such as many lasers and gauss ppc need to be seriously disadvantaged in damage, dps and everything else because the way poking operates is much more advantageous to brawling in itself.

The teams should have to make a move to make something happen. autocnnons, mrm, srm and other weapons should be much more lethal. Otherwise everyone just resorts to poking becaues noone wants to be focus fired in the open.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 11 February 2018 - 03:18 AM.


#699 Johnathan Tanner

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:22 AM

View PostKhobai, on 11 February 2018 - 03:09 AM, said:


because pre-agility nerf night gyrs with ppc/gauss were superior to everything else in the game

and I have no desire to recreate that situation


we can have agile night gyrs and better jumpjets

or we can have night gyrs with long range PPFLD

but we cant go back to agile night gyrs with better jumpjets AND long range PPFLD

it was overpowered. it was unfun. and it was nerfed in the first place for a reason.

although it was overnnerfed, so we can undo one nerf, but not both.



If it only punished overheating opponents that would be fine. But headshots can kill you when youre not overheating too. Headshots are always a risk, just more of a risk when you overheat.

​ROAR! THE SCARIEST MECH IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME ROAR! COWER IN FEAR I WILL 1 SHOT YOUR SAFE SPACE FROM 10 CLICKS OUT ROAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#700 cougurt

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:25 AM

View PostKhobai, on 11 February 2018 - 03:09 AM, said:

f it only punished overheating opponents that would be fine. But headshots can kill you when youre not overheating too. Headshots are always a risk, just more of a risk when you overheat.

are headshots really a common enough occurrence for it to be a problem? i think i've only been killed by headshots a dozen or so times in my several years of playing.





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