1125 replies to this topic

[GweNTLeR]

First of all, I'll tell you a bit about myself. I was an IS loyalist for like 3 years and a month ago switched to clan side. I play both clan and IS mechs quite equally and was never out of top 1000 according to ISEN'S rating (for quite a long time sticking somewhere near 200, which is a very good result, considering I spend like 4-6 hours in MWO a week).
My 2 cents on the update:
1) I don't like that the document was made by a IS-centric group. GOON are Kuritas AFAIK, ISEN are Rasaulhague. Why don't you come and ask Kcom for example? They recently switched to IS for SOME UNKNOWN REASON; Pretty sure they will tell you that your proposal is wrong in many ways.
2) You are making the same mistake as PGI - you are making TOO much changes in a single proposal. This will never work. You aren't even making any real math, just proposing some random numbers because some random people in community want them to be such.
3) Regarding the changes you propose:

Ballistics.
Starting with ballistics, I'm pretty sure you underestimate the power of LBX. It is a very powerful 1 vs 1 weapon. LBX10 && LBX 20 for sure. Muromets/NTG with 3 LBX-10 and some secondary stuff have insane DPS, alpha and sustain. LBX20 is even more a beast. I recently watched a PVP of 2 HG WH(piloted by a top 50 pilot) vs 2LBX20 WH(piloted by a pilot not even in a top 10000). 2 fights of 2 LBX20 WH won(the third one was LBX20 WH vs NTG with 3 LBX-10, where NTG easily won.
Gauss rifle buff for IS? It is already buffed: it has double the health of a clan one, It might even not explode when destroyed. Why are you using the machine guns as an excuse for buffing them? They are long range weapons, you are [color=#222222]not[/color] supposed to meet clan MG boats while using them. If you do - then you must be doing something wrong.
HG is a very powerful weapon ATM, it is quite universal and allows for some nice alphas, you can easily oneshot most(exept the tricky ones) of those MG boats without any real problems. MGs are not really excuse here too.
Machine guns, both clan and IS. This is where I understood that you completely don't understand what you are proposing. You basically want to have the same beasty MG boats for IS. But tell me: is it fine, that a 20t machine gun boat can take down a 100t without any real issues? I hope that the answer is "NO". In that case, you actually need to NERF ALL MG, by nullifing their structural damage.

Energy:
In case you haven't noticed, there were a LOT of clan energy nerfs the few previous patches. Aaaaaaand you want to nerf it even further OR buff IS counterparts. Where is logic? All those 70+alphas on clanners are spread over the mechs, since in most cases you don't have that nice torso twisting mobility(so cant aim properly, if a mech is mobile and torso twisting) (with a few mediocre mechs as exception) and that short duration. I'll show you my stats of my BNC-3M (alpha 60) and EXE-A (alpha 71) to illustrate that:
BNC-3M: W/L 5.21, K/D 4.93
EXE-A: W/L 2.36 K/D 3.35
You may say: but dude, it just means that you are better with BNC then EXE, nothing more. Maybe, but since I am a member of a community, you shouldn't ignore my experience. Pretty sure there are other people like me.
Clan MPL is much much worser than IS counterpart ATM. Just recently PGI decided to normalize range with IS one, but they forgot to normalize duration and/or DPH. Hence, it actually requires a boost.
Clan HML doesn't really give much benefits for its users, other than high alpha. There is no real reason to go for it, except the situations, when you cannot allow atl 5 MPL or ERML. You get into IS "high alpha" territory, where those 40 dmg don't help much. Hence, no actual need to change it (only your wish to do so).
PPCs changes are definitely IS-centric, you are basically ignoring the fact, that those weapons are actually quite vialible in right hands. IS snub+AC20 combo rocks on many mechs, HPPC is a beast in right hands(below are stats of my HPPC GHP, and I'm NOT a TOP DOG). ERPPC and LPPC could use some boost, but you have to think carefully of what you are doing, not just some random numbers.
GHP-5J W/L: 2.94, K/D 5.28
Missiles:
MRM spread reduction????? Please don't, there are a lot of mechs with MRM80 that can kill you in a single volley if played correctly (CAT-4C, Archer, QKD). And you are proposing to buff them EVEN FURTHER? Sounds like: " We don't want clan high laser alpha, but we want to oneshot ALOT OF CLANNERS thanks to EVEN SUPERIOR ALPHAS AND SUSTAIN". Gross.
I don't see any necessity to nerf ATMs, since they are countered quite nicely with AMS and ECM. 3-4 mechs with AMS can disable 2-3 unsynced ATM mechs. Not even talking about ECM, because LOL, try playing against GRINNER with some ATM mech.
As for LRMs, I feel that they should be simply redone, According to Sarna, clan LRM don't fire ballistic trajectories - hence cannot fire indirectly. So why not try this mechanic to differentiate LRMs?

In it's current state, I hope this will never reach PGI, or we will see IS simply annihilating clanners on a permanent basis.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 08 February 2018 - 10:11 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

GweNTLeR, on 08 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

I PMed Taragato with kinda same contend. Don't worry FP will be conserned

[Burke IV]

GweNTLeR, on 08 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

So why not try this mechanic to differentiate LRMs?

they would probably cease to be long range and it would stop you ever saving your team mates from afar.

[Angus McFife VI]

Kiran Yagami, on 08 February 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

Remove IS XL side torso death FOREVER.

No.

Edited by Dont LRM me please, 08 February 2018 - 10:24 AM.

[MisterSomaru]

I've DMed Metachanic about a number of thoughts.

[GweNTLeR]

Burke IV, on 08 February 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

they would probably cease to be long range and it would stop you ever saving your team mates from afar.

selling* fixed for you

[Judah Malganis]

I'd drop the HMG ammo buff to 1250 per ton instead of 1500. They're high dps and should have limited sustain based on both range and ammo.

On a side note, I've always felt that due to the high dmg available to Clan laser vomit, IS laser duration, cooldown and heat should be reworked to give IS a dps advantage (i.e. Clan mech with an ER med can hit for 7 dmg, but an IS mech with a 5 dmg ER med can hit for 8 dmg over the same time period, although they have to sustain their fire).

Edited by Judah Malganis, 08 February 2018 - 10:44 AM.

[InvictusLee]

Edited by November11th, 08 February 2018 - 10:46 AM.

[WarHawkZero]

I'm going to throw out a suggestion again just because. Make heavy lasers meaningfully different than other laser types. Right now pulse lasers have duration, ERs have range, and the standard IS versions are somewhere in between. IMO, heavy lasers need to be a high risk, high reward weapon (the risk in this case being heat).

I would like to see the burn duration for heavy lasers be the same as it is for the standard IS version of their respective categories. However, to differentiate the heavy category, give the lasers a charge up time similar to the gauss rifle but without the ability to cancel the fire sequence. So in other words, once you hit the fire button and start charging your laser, it will fire once the charge period is over no matter what (insert chargin muh lazer meme here). You could think of this as time needed to charge the capacitors in the laser before discharging. I would probably set the charge time to the current beam duration for the lasers now.

This would make using the heavy lasers more difficult (especially peek trading) , but provide a better reward for skilled use and would also better represent the -1 to hit penalty from TT if anyone still cares about that.

Anyway, since this would require some significant coding changes and not just adjustments to an XML file I won't get my hopes up, just hoping to see a little more variety in weapon types other than duration/damage/heat adjustments.

[C E Dwyer]

If Rac's are losing all their spread, (to become skill weapons)plus getting velocity quirks, and a heat buff.

Then I think the spin up time should be increased, because without a spread I feel there is a danger of marginalising U/ac's of a comparable size.

MRM's with a spread reduction, there is a danger of doing the same to SRM's what your Rac improvements could do with U/ac's

A Velocity and cool down buff to SRM's are needed as I don't think an Artemis SRM6 is worthwhile over a MRM30 at present, even with the MRM's additional weight, buffing the MRM's just makes all srms except srm2 less viable.

Or possibly a cool down nerf to the MRM's


Gauss rifles crit chance need a buff still, and I question that the Light Gauss is a viable choice at all, compared to other Gauss options, because of it's weight.

LMG's need a max range nerf

[Burke IV]

November11th, on 08 February 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

https://www.youtube....?v=UU7lLCMknig.

I dont mean to be harsh but i have got as far as ERLLs and im hearing "i dont want to get shot" alot.

[Khobai]

Quote

Looks great, please carry on and don't listen to Khobai he just wants to nerf everything lol.

right thats why I said I wanna buff ISXL, LFE, STD engines

buff ISDHS

buff ISFF/ISES

buff:
clan UACs
IS light gauss
missiles in general

PPCs ghost heat limit of 3
light gauss ghost heat limit of 3

the only thing I said should be definitively nerfed is clan laser vomit and laser/gauss

which pretty much everyone but you agrees is a problem


I also suggested some reasonable combination buff/nerfs as well. Like making MRMs weaker at point blank range but stronger at medium range (the range theyre supposed to be used at). To help SRMs retain their place in the game as point blank splat weapons. Because right now SRMs are largely overshadowed by MRMs for point blank splat.

so yeah im not seeing how I wanna nerf everything when ive suggested more buffs than nerfs.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 11:10 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

GweNTLeR, on 08 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

First of all, I'll tell you a bit about myself. I was an IS loyalist for like 3 years and a month ago switched to clan side. I play both clan and IS mechs quite equally and was never out of top 1000 according to ISEN'S rating (for quite a long time sticking somewhere near 200, which is a very good result, considering I spend like 4-6 hours in MWO a week).
My 2 cents on the update:
1) I don't like that the document was made by a IS-centric group. GOON are Kuritas AFAIK, ISEN are Rasaulhague. Why don't you come and ask Kcom for example? They recently switched to IS for SOME UNKNOWN REASON; Pretty sure they will tell you that your proposal is wrong in many ways.
2) You are making the same mistake as PGI - you are making TOO much changes in a single proposal. This will never work. You aren't even making any real math, just proposing some random numbers because some random people in community want them to be such.
3) Regarding the changes you propose:

Ballistics.
Starting with ballistics, I'm pretty sure you underestimate the power of LBX. It is a very powerful 1 vs 1 weapon. LBX10 && LBX 20 for sure. Muromets/NTG with 3 LBX-10 and some secondary stuff have insane DPS, alpha and sustain. LBX20 is even more a beast. I recently watched a PVP of 2 HG WH(piloted by a top 50 pilot) vs 2LBX20 WH(piloted by a pilot not even in a top 10000). 2 fights of 2 LBX20 WH won(the third one was LBX20 WH vs NTG with 3 LBX-10, where NTG easily won.
Gauss rifle buff for IS? It is already buffed: it has double the health of a clan one, It might even not explode when destroyed. Why are you using the machine guns as an excuse for buffing them? They are long range weapons, you are not supposed to meet clan MG boats while using them. If you do - then you must be doing something wrong.
HG is a very powerful weapon ATM, it is quite universal and allows for some nice alphas, you can easily oneshot most(exept the tricky ones) of those MG boats without any real problems. MGs are not really excuse here too.
Machine guns, both clan and IS. This is where I understood that you completely don't understand what you are proposing. You basically want to have the same beasty MG boats for IS. But tell me: is it fine, that a 20t machine gun boat can take down a 100t without any real issues? I hope that the answer is "NO". In that case, you actually need to NERF ALL MG, by nullifing their structural damage.

Energy:
In case you haven't noticed, there were a LOT of clan energy nerfs the few previous patches. Aaaaaaand you want to nerf it even further OR buff IS counterparts. Where is logic? All those 70+alphas on clanners are spread over the mechs, since in most cases you don't have that nice torso twisting mobility(so cant aim properly, if a mech is mobile and torso twisting) (with a few mediocre mechs as exception) and that short duration. I'll show you my stats of my BNC-3M (alpha 60) and EXE-A (alpha 71) to illustrate that:
BNC-3M: W/L 5.21, K/D 4.93
EXE-A: W/L 2.36 K/D 3.35
You may say: but dude, it just means that you are better with BNC then EXE, nothing more. Maybe, but since I am a member of a community, you shouldn't ignore my experience. Pretty sure there are other people like me.
Clan MPL is much much worser than IS counterpart ATM. Just recently PGI decided to normalize range with IS one, but they forgot to normalize duration and/or DPH. Hence, it actually requires a boost.
Clan HML doesn't really give much benefits for its users, other than high alpha. There is no real reason to go for it, except the situations, when you cannot allow atl 5 MPL or ERML. You get into IS "high alpha" territory, where those 40 dmg don't help much. Hence, no actual need to change it (only your wish to do so).
PPCs changes are definitely IS-centric, you are basically ignoring the fact, that those weapons are actually quite vialible in right hands. IS snub+AC20 combo rocks on many mechs, HPPC is a beast in right hands(below are stats of my HPPC GHP, and I'm NOT a TOP DOG). ERPPC and LPPC could use some boost, but you have to think carefully of what you are doing, not just some random numbers.
GHP-5J W/L: 2.94, K/D 5.28
Missiles:
MRM spread reduction????? Please don't, there are a lot of mechs with MRM80 that can kill you in a single volley if played correctly (CAT-4C, Archer, QKD). And you are proposing to buff them EVEN FURTHER? Sounds like: " We don't want clan high laser alpha, but we want to oneshot ALOT OF CLANNERS thanks to EVEN SUPERIOR ALPHAS AND SUSTAIN". Gross.
I don't see any necessity to nerf ATMs, since they are countered quite nicely with AMS and ECM. 3-4 mechs with AMS can disable 2-3 unsynced ATM mechs. Not even talking about ECM, because LOL, try playing against GRINNER with some ATM mech.
As for LRMs, I feel that they should be simply redone, According to Sarna, clan LRM don't fire ballistic trajectories - hence cannot fire indirectly. So why not try this mechanic to differentiate LRMs?

In it's current state, I hope this will never reach PGI, or we will see IS simply annihilating clanners on a permanent basis.

Very nice post. Actually the game is balanced quite well right now the devs are on a right track.

[FupDup]

Cathy, on 08 February 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

LMG's need a max range nerf

Regular MGs already overshadow LMGs after the latter got nerfed, so that's really unnecessary.

[Cementi]

While I appreciate what this small group of people is trying to do I cannot support it.

Would these changes be more balanced? Maybe, as with any balance changes it is hard to truly say until you get in game.

Would these changes create even higher more accurate pinpoint alphas? The answer is yes as literally everything is getting buffed. Many weapon systems are also getting spread reduction or ghost heat cap increases. Which I find amusing since so many people have been asking for the opposite for years.

Sorry to anyone who is on board with this but when I talk to people who have quit this game almost all of them point to one of two things. The wacky heat scale and the absolutely ludicrous alpha strikes that are possible due to the wacky heat scale so really it is just one thing.

I watched Dane's video and I agreed with about half of it. However one of the things that I found rather out of touch was putting down TT players saying they are older and out of touch. Yet I know a couple 20 somethings that call this Heresy Online. He then proceeds with the BUFF ALL THE THINGS.

Buff everything requests are silly and childish. Sorry not trying to be offensive but they just are. If we follow the buff everything mentality small lasers will be doing 10 damage and PPC's will be doing 50. No one likes nerfs but rational people understand that they are a necessary evil.

If you want to fix balance in this system you need to start at the core mechanic. The Heat Scale. Switch it from this absurd heat sinks add to the heat sink cap system. Set a specific cap. I am not saying it should be 30 like in TT as unlike would many would think those of us who play TT are rational and accept that a direct conversion is not possible. Then buff the disapation so that more dps orientated or god forbid even heat neutral builds become viable. Now for the icing on the cake adapt the TT table heat PENALTIES that PGI has totally ignored and adapt them into mwo. Sure some do not have direct representations but a number of people over the years have gotten creative with suggestions. Movement penalties is fairly obvious. To hit penalties, less so but I think mobility issues could work. Ammo explosions are a bit crippling in TT but since ammo does not always explode in MWO it might work. Shutdown rolls are a bit silly and the more I think about it I would probably switch those to having a chance to burn out a heat sink. Max heat would still auto shut down and would burn out a heat sink.

However it is probably easier to just ignore the fundamental problem and buff all the things.

[Bombast]

GweNTLeR, on 08 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

MRM spread reduction????? Please don't, there are a lot of mechs with MRM80 that can kill you in a single volley if played correctly (CAT-4C, Archer, QKD).

Seriously though, teach me your secrets. Because you must know something myself and all my buddies don't if you can one shot with MRMs.

[Khobai]

Quote

2) You are making the same mistake as PGI - you are making TOO much changes in a single proposal. This will never work. You aren't even making any real math, just proposing some random numbers because some random people in community want them to be such.

I agree its too many changes and its way too focused on weapon changes

and completely ignores balancing the tech bases at the most fundamental level

like ISXL, ISDHS, and ISES/FF are all ignored. why ignore the most basic and obvious imbalances?

Quote

MRM spread reduction????? Please don't, there are a lot of mechs with MRM80 that can kill you in a single volley if played correctly (CAT-4C, Archer, QKD).

thats exactly why I suggested MRMs should get damage dropoff under 90m (or maybe 120m im not sure)

that would allow the MRMs buffs to go through but give MRMs a weakness at point blank range

which is the range where SRMs should be better than MRMs anyway

so it helps keep SRMs relevant and makes MRMs better at medium range (but weaker at point blank range)

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 11:26 AM.

[InvictusLee]

Burke IV, on 08 February 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

I dont mean to be harsh but i have got as far as ERLLs and im hearing "i dont want to get shot" alot.

He makes a good point though, which is to reduce max range and increase optimal range instead.

He also has a point with the gauss ppc meta; getting one shot from across the map in a medium or light really sucks.
Also, LL battle-masters can and will one shot assault mechs from across the map. That really has to change man, because it sucks, and is a big reason why I hate FP.

[Curccu]

dario03, on 08 February 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:

They can if they can set spread based on target tonnage. Which might not be that difficult since we have had target info based on tonnage before, and they have made it so streaks don't target destroyed components.

So you basically want streaks home to CT of an assault mech? and hit what of a light?

[Bud Crue]

lazorbeamz, on 08 February 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

Very nice post. Actually the game is balanced quite well right now the devs are on a right track.

https://media.giphy....eudTG/giphy.gif

The “right track”?!
This “right track” has brought us to a point where mechs boating machine guns are considered the epitome of OP-ness.
Where most matches are dominated by +70ish point peak and poke gauss/vomit and laser vomit trades from across the map.
We have dozens of weapons, whole categories of equipment, and scores of mechs that are simply not played.

That’s the “right track”? I am sorry but I really disagree here. The effort by the OP and others is way, WAY closer to a right track than anything the devs have done in the last year...maybe two years.