1125 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

he makes a good point though, which is to reduce max range and increase optimal range instead.

yes max range should not be x2 optimal, ive been saying that for months

max range should be like x1.6-x1.7 optimal instead

x2 max range is atrocious. it gives weapons substantially more range than their battletech counterparts. for example, I have a night gyr with CERLL that has a 999m optimal range. I can damage you out to 1998m. that is completely stupid.

battletech is meant to be a combination brawling/sniping game and x2 max range turns it into mostly a sniping game

and yeah we dont need a rollback on Gauss/PPC we are better off without the 45 damage long range sniping alphas

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 11:25 AM.

[Daurock]

Great Read!

Some of my first thoughts upon reading the OP

AC's
- Clan AC5 seems like just a flat upgrade over the IS AC5 under the proposed changes. Perhaps a Rate of fire tweak to make it match the IS mech ton/ton (Including ammo) would be in order. Come to think of it, they actually could turn down the fire rate for ALL clan Std. AC's, and give them all single slug in the process. Works well for streaks, could work well here too.
- Ultras Proposed changes seem pretty good, though i'm not entirely sure they all really need a change. I'm kind of the opinion at least IS side, the ultra/std debate is actually rather balanced as of now. (I prefer standard 2/5 class ACs, and ultra 10/20s at the moment)
- LBX - Right on target here, except I'm not huge about simply changing slot requirements. I'd rather that they figure out a way to add "Floating" slots into a mech (Much like FF/Endo) whenever somepone puts in an 8+ slot weapon. That way we get a "quasi" crit splitting, if we can't have proper crit splitting. (and if that isn't possible, just throw in even bigger buffs to the LBX20 to compensate for requiring a standard engine)
- Ammo Like the idea of adding more damage in general to Projectile ammo. Not sold that it has to be exactly equal, but am unsure of what exactly the balance needs to be. (I kind of view ammo as a way to "Fudge" weapon weight if we deem a weapon too powerful - I.E. if the AC5 is too strong, we can nerf the ammo instead of making the weapon heavier) For now though, 200 across the board is a good starting point for ballistics (except for gauss, which i'm happy with the current numbers.)

Gauss and PPC
- I'm generally of the "Don't like long ranged large PPFLD" opinion, so I'm not huge about raising the PPFLD limits. Spectres of pop-tarting aren't fun in my mind.
- As for gauss themselves, Changes seem A bit minor here. Clan Gauss still stands head and shoulders higher than any IS gauss. (My opinion, lower the damage to 13 or so on the clan one, increase range of light gauss even further, and leave it at that.)
For PPCs themselves, I like most of the changes. I'd probably put a velocity boost in there for the clan PPC, and maybe go a little further lowering snub ppc heat, but apart from that, pretty solid.

Lasers -
- Agreed that the 0-2 ton lasers are poorly defined. Right now, they all share very similar profiles. Heartily agreed that they really need to do a little more on this front to differentiate the weapons. (Maybe make a small / medium pulse act similar to a machine gun, for example, but that's a discussion more appropriate for a different time.)
- LPLs Agreed here, but am concerned that if the changes go through, along with a possible IS heatsink buff, could have a bit too high sustain. Personally, I'd probably bring the heat up a bit along with the damage, and see where it goes from there.

Missiles -
- ATMs are mostly hard on mediums / lights because ATMs go quite a good amount faster than LRMs, making them much more accurate (It's not just a tracking issue.) Tack on a more direct flight path, and they spend a lot less time in the air, which doesn't allow fast movers time to get where they need.
- I'd propose that we ask if the devs can make the ATM's "Accelerate" so that they fly faster at longer range. That way we can slow their base speed down a bit to make them less deadly to lights at 200-300 M, and maybe make them more dangrous to stuff at 600+. If this works, you could possibly apply this same theory to LRMs as well, giving them a generally slower speed when compared to ATMs. This would be a rather long term change, however.

General thoughts
- Changes in general would improve the game, bringing out more weapons.
- Far more weapon buffs here, which would generally lower TTKs fron today. Whether that is good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.
- Avoids the XL/LFE/STD engine debate, and the IS/Clan DHS debate. I kind of think we should have a handle on that discussion first before getting into this one, because whether you change those things resonates through just about every facet of the proposed changes. C'est La Vie.
- Obviously, all these changes at once would create a pretty big meta shift, and probably require a through Quirk Pass (Which we wouldn't know what we'd need until after making all these changes. We'd probably have a pretty wild few months in the interim.

[GweNTLeR]

Bombast, on 08 February 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

using memes and trying to be funny ruining the constructive feedback

Zeus is not a MRM80 mech, exept for hero (surprise surprise, who would have guessed!). Right now it is possible to do so in close ranges (100-m, where that spread doesn't mean much.) As for clanners, 45-t mechs will not survive 80 damage alpha. Playing against IS, it is possible to kill 55-t mechs if they are using XL. Not to mention, that you can just alpha your opponents back, leaving him with no chance to recover.
And, just in case, you can put some ML to boost your alpha a little bit further.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 08 February 2018 - 11:25 AM.

[Bombast]

GweNTLeR, on 08 February 2018 - 11:22 AM, said:

Zeus is not a MRM80 mech, exept for hero (surprise surprise, who would have guessed!). Right now it is possible to do so in close ranges (100-m, where that spread doesn't mean much.)

I would like you to go into the training grounds and prove that. Outside of maybe oneshotting a standing still Commando or a stock armor Cicada, I do not believe you can one shot anything with an MRM80.

Seriously, I love MRMs. Show me a new trick.

EDIT: And the Zeus hero is garbage. Don't try to insinuate its pay to win.

Edited by Bombast, 08 February 2018 - 11:27 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Avoids the XL/LFE/STD engine debate, and the IS/Clan DHS debate. I kind of think we should have a handle on that discussion first before getting into this one, because whether you change those things resonates through just about every facet of the proposed changes.

but thats why it should be the first place to start

because it has the most profound impact on balancing the two tech bases at the fundamental level

ISXL, ISDHS, and ISFF/ES should all be balanced vs their clan counterparts before weapon balance even starts.

thats the coarse adjustment

weapon balancing and quirks are the fine tuning

you cant just ignore the main reasons why clantech is so much better in the first place. and then try to balance the weapons around that. because that will only ever produce a lopsided result where you still need superquirks on the IS side.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 11:37 AM.

[kuma8877]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

"Snip"

Just going to point out that this proposal was ONLY to be about weapons, not other types of changes. It also sounds like they have no real expectation that the list of proposed changes was really going to survive contact with the community intact. More that it was to be used as the watercooler we gather around to start crunching the ideas into something we can whittle down and present as a "mostly" unified community to PGI. A tool to start identifying the hills that are actually worth fighting for, and the changes that can help produce the most fun in more areas of gameplay.

[Asym]

Bud Crue, on 08 February 2018 - 07:08 AM, said:

Wth are you on about?
The folks who have proposed the changes are just players. They are not a business, nor are they seeking a cultural shift to anything; just tweeting some numbers on some pretend weapons. Is the culture you are referring to like “competitive play” being a culture versus people who can’t aim being some different culture or what? What exactly is the cultural conflict here? I’m a mediocre (at best), casual player and I can see that a lot of weapons in this game just suck. Why on earth would you be a opposed to folks better at that game and more familiar with its mechanical intricacies than you or I making proposals to make those sucky weapons less sucky?

Answer: Competitive players are 'the' represented MWO culture. They are what the game puts forward to the world as our best. Our recruiting tool. And yet, their play style and TO&E are not the average player's. They aren't even close. A unique culture that is and has changed the game: some say better, some say worse... What a non-MWO player sees in competitions is not the game we play everyday. We've tested this in our players union and the game play styles are apples and oranges.... Many outsiders we've tested the game with view MWO as bi-polar and illogical (as part of an innovation class). Not a good recruiting method I might add... That is not healthy for games. Many of us play for the fun of it and it's not about money, or fame, or national attention and that game, is the game that was started so many years ago.... What the competitive community wants is geared towards making them money as efficiently as possible.

Again, wth are you on about here? There has never been a “story-line” in MWO. At best the “story” of faction play is one where you the player “rewrite the history of the inner-sphere”; so even here the story is that which you create. MWO is an arena shooter with stompy robots, and it has always been an arena shooter with stompy robots. Is there some other game that you are complaining about here? Is your beef with the fact that PGI doesn’t really care about lore? If the later, what has that got to do with the efforts a group of players are putting forth regarding making weapons more fun to play?

Answer: yes, there is... It's been abandoned for the moment to test another concept. A real stompy robot arena FP shooting gallery. The story line culture, where the game started was all about the lack of balance between the cultures involved. The 'Cold War" analogy in space: the many with inferior technology and large numbers against a fanatical, yet vastly smaller warrior culture with superior weapons.... Sounds like the 1930's through the 1980's.... There wasn't "balance" nor was there suppose to be.... That is the central thread of this game. If you 'balance' weapons systems, what is left is "just an arcade FPS" and nothing more.....

I’m sure Bombast will enjoy Solaris. Um, I’m a little familiar with Freudian slips...and now I am finally at the end of your post intrigued: I for one would find your subconscious feelings toward potatoes and dedication to be fascinating. Please express your feelings here, we won’t judge.

Answer: I think he replied. Potatoes are people who love, for the most part, this game because we've played all of the previous games and enjoyed them. We aren't here to determine the ballistic coefficients of imaginary weapons that don't exist.... (I do that as a hobby and test new bullets for the 'fun of it' at no cost....) I just want the weapons put back to where they started from and then, as a entire program, have on-going discussion with our host to make the game true to it's nature when envisioned; and, most importantly, really fun so that it can and will grow and expand.... Games excel when the 'potatoes' feel they are part of the growth of the community and that what they have to say has as much weight to the culture as the competitive and elite players.... Some other games go to great lengths to do just that......and, see millions of players each and everyday.... That's what I see as a goal in being a super spud Potato, aye-up....

I hope this helps....

[Khobai]

Quote

Just going to point out that this proposal was ONLY to be about weapons, not other types of changes.

I understand that.

but its all interconnected. if you balance IS tech and clan tech at the most fundamental level (engines, heatsinks, structure/armor, etc...) then it directly affects what weapon changes/quirks are needed

for example, a lot of the IS weapon heat adjustments wouldnt be needed if ISDHS were all true double heatsinks (and they should be true doubles because theyre 3 crit slots instead of 2 crit slots)

the way theyre doing it is backwards.

weapon balance is great but we need the fundamentals balanced before anything else.

PGI needs to give us balanced engines, heatsinks, and ferro/endo before anything else. Then we can talk weapon/quirk balance.

then we get a game that doesnt need lopsided superquirks to balance one side. because ignoring the fundamentals and focusing only on weapons doesnt get rid of the ridiculous superquirks.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 11:45 AM.

[GweNTLeR]

Bombast, on 08 February 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

I would like you to go into the training grounds and prove that. Outside of maybe oneshotting a standing still Commando or a stock armor Cicada, I do not believe you can one shot anything with an MRM80.

Seriously, I love MRMs. Show me a new trick.

EDIT: And the Zeus hero is garbage. Don't try to insinuate its pay to win.

Okay. A hunchie is a nice example of what I mean. It has almost full armor by default.
It is a syntetic test, but you can achieve similar results if lucky.

Spoiler

[InvictusLee]

GweNTLeR, on 08 February 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

Okay. A hunchie is a nice example of what I mean. It has almost full armor by default.
It is a syntetic test, but you can achieve similar results if lucky.

Spoiler

Thats a mech thats standing still though.

with also no armor skills.

Edited by November11th, 08 February 2018 - 11:49 AM.

[Bombast]

GweNTLeR, on 08 February 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

Okay. A hunchie is a nice example of what I mean. It has almost full armor by default.
It is a syntetic test, but you can achieve similar results if lucky.

You do realize the 'luck' part of that is that you almost certainly hit the ammo bin, yes?

EDIT: I take that back. You definitely hit the ammo bin.

Edited by Bombast, 08 February 2018 - 11:52 AM.

[InvictusLee]

Ghost heat.
Just get rid of it.
This video is how old and it hasnt changed one bit?

[Verilligo]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

I understand that.

but its all interconnected. if you balance IS tech and clan tech at the most fundamental level (engines, heatsinks, structure/armor, etc...) then it directly affects what weapon changes/quirks are needed

for example, a lot of the IS weapon heat adjustments wouldnt be needed if ISDHS were all true double heatsinks (and they should be true doubles because theyre 3 crit slots instead of 2 crit slots)

the way theyre doing it is backwards.

weapon balance is great but we need the fundamentals balanced before anything else.

PGI needs to give us balanced engines, heatsinks, and ferro/endo before anything else. Then we can talk weapon/quirk balance.

then we get a game that doesnt need lopsided superquirks to balance one side. because ignoring the fundamentals and focusing only on weapons doesnt get rid of the ridiculous superquirks.

I think the goal here is to try to get a change of ANY type made. Apparently making fundamental changes is impossible, so no matter how much you think and how much we might agree that PGI needs to balance engines/sinks/upgrades, that discussion is completely off the table. You can stop championing it because even if it's the right thing to do, PGI will not be willing to do it. They MAY be willing to make changes to weapons, though, and it seems they've indicated such. In essence, this is way better than just leaving thing as-is, which is what the case will be unless we can agree on at least SOME proposed changes that deal with weapons.

[GweNTLeR]

Bombast, on 08 February 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

You do realize the 'luck' part of that is that you almost certainly hit the ammo bin, yes?

Side torso is destroyed anyways, I just decided to leave the img with ammo destruction to illustrate what happens with XL. Here is without explosion

Spoiler

November11th, on 08 February 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:

Thats a mech thats standing still though.

with also no armor skills.

I use it ONLY to illustrate that MRM vomit could be as dangerous as laser vomit.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 08 February 2018 - 12:02 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Asym, on 08 February 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

poorly structured response post that lacked proper quote format

Look, so as to not derail this thread further, please understand that this thread is about the people who are proposing these changes (that’s all this is some folks propsosing something) giving you the opportunity to review their proposals thus far, and to provide your feedback and recommendations.

Rather than do that you have asserted that they are engaged in some sort of culture war. That their way of playing the gamehas been tested by your “union” and found to be unlike anything you have ever played, and that it is in fact “bi-polar and illogical.” That these people are engaged in some sort of anti-story-line conspiracy -a story that you claim was once fundamental to the game- but I’ll be damned if I know where you pretend this ever existed in MWO. And finally that by their proposed actions they are doing nothing more than engaging in some sort of anti-new player money grubbing conspiracy.

Okay. Now that this is out of your system, how about you provide them with some actual detailed commentary on what you find so abhorrent in the weapons values that they are proposing? I think that might be a lot more constructive. Maybe your union and their expertise in what makes a healthy game can participate in this community effort.

[Bombast]

GweNTLeR, on 08 February 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

Side torso is destroyed anyways, I just decided to leave the img with ammo destruction to illustrate what happens with XL. Here is without explosion

That's not one shotting a mech though, which was your original claim. Are you withdrawing that remark?

Ok, I see what you're saying.

Your comparison is flawed - Most weapons can kill something, theoretically, in one shot, if the stars align. SRMs, MRMs, Lasers, Gauss, Autocannons... everything, sans Machine Guns and probably LRMs. So if this is your bar for a single kill weapon, than I dismiss it as a meaningless claim.

Edited by Bombast, 08 February 2018 - 12:07 PM.

[dario03]

Curccu, on 08 February 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

So you basically want streaks home to CT of an assault mech? and hit what of a light?

Earlier posts

Quote

-Make component tracking based on weight (against smaller mechs it spreads like now, against bigger mechs it increases chance of hitting torsos)
-lower damage
-faster cooldown but still lower dps overall

So basically against smaller mechs you still have a similar spread of damage but it isn't a giant alpha all at once and the dps would be lower. However streaks wouldn't be hitting the legs and arms of bigger mechs as often which against those mechs is often pointless so while the dps is lower it is more meaningful damage. So its a buff and a nerf to better balance the weapon against all classes. Exact numbers would probably need testing but I would probably greatly reduce damage but buff cooldown at the same time (adjust ammo too).

Might not be exactly a simple tweak but might not be that difficult since we have had target info time based on mech type before, and they have made it so streaks don't target destroyed components. So some what similar mechanics have existed before.

I don't have exact numbers since I think we should test it for a bit but no, it wouldn't be all CT on assaults, just more torsos than it is now. Against lights it would be about the same as now (or possibly have some not fire but I didn't include that in earlier posts here). Both with lower alpha and dps but against bigger mechs the damage will typically be more meaningful.

Edited by dario03, 08 February 2018 - 12:12 PM.

[ROSS-128]

Asym, on 08 February 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

(quote tower snip)

And just where do you propose to find the unwashed hordes of barbarians for your overpowered clan master race to slaughter?

That entire wall of text basically reads "I want this to play like a singleplayer game, where I'm the player and you're the NPCs".

[GweNTLeR]

Bombast, on 08 February 2018 - 12:05 PM, said:

Ok, I see what you're saying.

Your comparison is flawed - Most weapons can kill something, theoretically, in one shot, if the stars align. SRMs, MRMs, Lasers, Gauss, Autocannons... everything, sans Machine Guns and probably LRMs. So if this is your bar for a single kill weapon, than I dismiss it as a meaningless claim.

Exept for the fact, that most weapons you mentioned doesn't have enough alpha to do so. Which makes MRMs one of the few weapons theoretically capable of doing so. Laser vomit,2xUAC20 may kill similar mech if he is standing still and not torso twisting(or may not, if he does something). There are plenty of potatoes in game that allow enemies to put a lot of damage on a single component, especially in FW, where MM doesn't work.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 08 February 2018 - 12:25 PM.

[Bombast]

GweNTLeR, on 08 February 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

Exept for the fact, that most weapons you mentioned doesn't have enough alpha to do so.

Standard Clan Laser Vomit (HLLx2, ERMLx6): 78 damage
'Delete' Vomit (HLLx2, LPLx2, ERMLx4): 88 damage
SRM Bomber (SRM36): 72 damage
UAC/40: 80 damage
ATM24: 72 damage

Quote

Which makes MRMs one of the few weapons theoretically capable of doing so.

A pleasure enjoyed at the expense of 24 tons, 17 crits, absurd spread, and so many projectiles that, in practice, on a live server, 10-30% of the missiles (And thus damage) disappears into thin air.

But they can theoretically one shot a mech that's standing still, underarmored, carrying an engine it most definitely shouldn't be, at point blank range.

There's a reason no one starts 'MRMs are OP' threads.

Quote

Laser vomit, 2xUAC20 may kill similar mech if he is standing still and not torso twisting(or may not, if he does something).

People can twist MRMs as well, you know. MRM40s have a functioning duration somewhere between 0.55 and 0.65. And unlike UAC/20s and Lasers, MRMs spread over a grid square on their own.

Quote

There are plenty of potatoes in game that allow enemies to put a lot of damage on a single component, especially in FW, where MM doesn't work.

If we're going to balance by what can kill a potato, then we're not going to have many viable weapons left.

Edited by Bombast, 08 February 2018 - 12:34 PM.