1125 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Bud Crue, on 08 February 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

I just want my POS 0xp with 2ERPPCs and a GR back. It was an incredibly situational right side poker that worked on like 3 maps and only if the team went to the right spots, but to PGI it is just as OP as the dreaded pre-nerf Night Gyr or even a Mad-IIc. Both are silly comparisons, and yet here we are. I just wish they would use a little imagination (I know, I know, that takes effort) rather than the typical across the board changes, especially given that we have a game where the mechs are not remotely the same "across the board".

Honestly, the 2 PPC Gauss combos are really what I want back as well. A bunch of IS mechs could do it, and the Timber Wolf would finally work itself back into my regular rotation. The Night Gyr build still works about as well as it did before anyway if you stack heat gen nodes and the heat nodes in the ops tree with 15 DHS.

[ROSS-128]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

but thats not why people use the CHLL

they use the CHLL because it gives them the biggest alphas when combined with CERMLs

if it no longer gives you a big alpha, its not worth all the other downsides it has like absurd beam duration and cooldown.

the only way I could see the CHLL work at 16 damage is if you changed the mechanics of how heavy lasers worked. like making them do some of their damage as PPFLD.

if the heavy laser did like 5 PPFLD immediately then burned for the rest of the damage. like a hybrid ppc/laser it would still be worth considering.

2x16+6×6 is still 68 damage, which is still way higher than anything the IS can put out without ghost heat. It would still basically be the biggest range-coherent alpha in the game (hll+hmeds is bigger but not range-coherent), it just wouldn't be 78 damage anymore.

Why are you suddenly defending maximum alpha anyway, what happened to "ttk needs to be way longer"? Did you only mean "TTK of Inner Sphere weapons"?

[East Indy]

I'm very pleased that Heat Scale for PPC/Gauss was reinstated per feedback. Impressed, actually, because it's so popular among higher-end players.

As someone who's played this game regularly since early 2013, I remember each stage of player behavior and dev re-balances. PPCs and ballistics were and always have been a workaround for Heat Scale. Always, and the point has been to get higher front-loaded alphas even if rules as written say you shouldn't.

Gauss, autocannons, whatever. In 2013, Paul reined in the insane days of 4 PPCs on anything that could carry them that began when HSR and hit reg started working. It solved the immediate problem but players found loopholes quickly and Paul never cinched them up. Until 2014's extreme velocity nerfs to autocannons and PPCs (1,500 to 950!) PPC/ballistics was the only build beyond a certain skill floor. No effective counter, not against someone good. No way. I don't mis-remember that.

It was a really clever player response to a flaw in game design, but that's what it was: response to a flaw. In heavier weight classes it made hardpoints irrelevant past two ballistic and two energy, and straight-up flew in the face of MechWarrior and BattleTech involving some degree of system mixture and rock-'em-sock-'em gameplay. MOBAs and CounterStrike didn't obsolete RTSs or Half-Life. It belongs in an eSports mod for marksman battles, but not MWO.

[Q]

Do we think the community can agree on the maximum amount of pinpoint damage that is reasonably acceptable? Is it 50 (2xHGauss)? Is it 40 (2xGauss+1xPPC)? Should that number change based on the weapons velocity and/or range and thus needing more skill?

What about an acceptable limit on burn damage? Keep it similar? Allow a higher amount because of the slightly increased skill need (holding aim on a component for 1-2 seconds)?

Or what's reasonably acceptable for splat damage? 48 (4xSRM6)?

We need to manage maximum potentials and then worry about individual weapon performances, imo... If we do it the other way around (assuming we ever adjust maximum potentials) we'd just need to make another pass at weapon performance.

I know there is a lot of love for alpha strikes in battle tech lore but when you can pinpoint all that firepower by aiming the mechanics just don't make any sense. I think most of us will agree that the drawn out, down to the wire fights, are the most fun, yeah?

[Khobai]

Quote

2x16+6×6 is still 68 damage, which is still way higher than anything the IS can put out without ghost heat.

its way higher than clans should be able to put out too


ive already explained how to fix laser vomit

medium and large laser ghost heat linkage

then you dont need to nerf CHLL


CHLL isnt overpowered. no one is breaking the game by running around with their 2 CHLL shadowcats. OH NO THAT SHADOWCAT DOES 36 DAMAGE. NERF IT TO 32 DAMAGE!!!111. at 16 damage it wouldnt even be worth using on shadowcats anymore.

Its the unholy union of x2 CHLL and x6 CERML thats a problem. thats what needs to be fixed.

not nerfing CHLL into obscurity.


thats how you fix the problem directly. instead of nerfing it in silly roundabout ways that make weapons worse for no good reason.


however I do agree the CERML should go down to 6 damage. because 7 damage for 1 ton is nuts. And the CERML shouldnt do the same damage as the CMPL. And also should only do 1 more damage than the ISERML, not 2 more damage.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 04:16 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Q, on 08 February 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

but when you can pinpoint all that firepower by aiming the mechanics just don't make any sense. I think most of us will agree that the drawn out, down to the wire fights, are the most fun, yeah?

I'm confused, why do the mechanics not make sense? Yeah, you can aim. You can also miss. You can also torso twist and catch a dual heavy gauss shot that was meant for your CT in your arm. Seems to make sense to me.

And fights can still be down to the wire.. the people involved just have to not face tank and play smart.

[SPNKRGrenth]

So there'd be no reason to use a cooler running, higher DPS for both sustained and burst, closer range version of the Clan ERLL? Half the point is to lower the 71-78 damage laser alpha that got introduced with heavy larges.

I could see buffing their cooldown to 5.1 seconds and duration to 1.4 seconds to make up the difference, so it comes out as an overall buff to the usability of the weapon.

But to say losing 2 damage makes the weapon pointless, when there's so much going for it, is a bit extreme. It'd still give the highest laser alpha boost possible, just not by as much as now.

[Khobai]

Quote

So there'd be no reason to use a cooler running, higher DPS for both sustained and burst, closer range version of the Clan ERLL? Half the point is to lower the 71-78 damage laser alpha that got introduced with heavy larges.

thats easily solved by linking medium and large lasers for ghost heat

you can also raise the ghost heat limit on large lasers then so they can be used independently as primary weapons

Quote

But to say losing 2 damage makes the weapon pointless, when there's so much going for it, is a bit extreme. It'd still give the highest laser alpha boost possible, just not by as much as now.

but saying the weapon needs to lose 2 damage in the first place is utter nonsense

2 CHLL shadowcats arnt breaking the game

CHLL isnt the problem. nerfing the CHLL just weakens mechs like the shadowcat for no good reason.

the problem is being able to combine 2 CHLL with 6 CERML

we already have a game mechanic that exists that can prevent certain weapon combinations: ghost heat

large+medium laser vomit combos is just one of the loopholes that needs to be closed.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 04:25 PM.

[SPNKRGrenth]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

thats easily solved by linking medium and large lasers for ghost heat

you can also raise the ghost heat limit on large lasers then so they can be used independently as primary weapons

That... Is actually what I would do too. Make the large lasers count as part of the medium laser ghost heat. So you could fire 2 clan larges (ER/Heavy/Pulse) and 4 mediums (ER/Pulse) at no penalty, but adding a 5th medium laser to the mix would triggar ghost heat. 18 damage on a CHLL would be fine if they counted as part of the 6 max medium lasers when being fired.

Edited by SPNKRGrenth, 08 February 2018 - 04:26 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Q, on 08 February 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

Do we think the community can agree on the maximum amount of pinpoint damage that is reasonably acceptable? Is it 50 (2xHGauss)? Is it 40 (2xGauss+1xPPC)? Should that number change based on the weapons velocity and/or range and thus needing more skill?

No we can not. GH and any limits to alpha are cancer and should not exist. If someone wants to shoot OMFG 150 dmg and die to overheat then let him do it.

[Khobai]

SPNKRGrenth, on 08 February 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

That... Is actually what I would do too. Make the large lasers count as part of the medium laser ghost heat. So you could fire 2 clan larges (ER/Heavy/Pulse) and 4 mediums (ER/Pulse) at no penalty, but adding a 5th medium laser to the mix would triggar ghost heat. 18 damage on a CHLL would be fine if they counted as part of the 6 max medium lasers when being fired.

yep exactly

x2 large lasers and x4 medium lasers fired at the same time would be fine

x3 non-heavy large lasers fired at the same time would also be fine (heavy large lasers would stay ghost heated at x2 though)

but ghost heat would kick in if you tried to fire 2 larges and 5+ mediums

Quote

Do we think the community can agree on the maximum amount of pinpoint damage that is reasonably acceptable? Is it 50 (2xHGauss)? Is it 40 (2xGauss+1xPPC)? Should that number change based on the weapons velocity and/or range and thus needing more skill?

id say 30-35 PPFLD for long range weapons

40-50 PPFLD for short range weapons

that way brawling maintains an edge in PPFLD like it rightfully should (more risk = more reward)

we do not need to go back to 45+ damage long range PPFLD dominating though. so long range PPFLD needs to stay capped at 30-35.

Quote

No we can not. GH and any limits to alpha are cancer and should not exist. If someone wants to shoot OMFG 150 dmg and die to overheat then let him do it.

except without ghost heat they wouldnt overheat and die.

ghost heat is the reason you overheat and die if you try to do that.

derp.


frankly I dont like ghost heat either. but an alphastrike limiter is necessary. and ghost heat is better than all the other stupid ideas people have suggested like RNG cone of fire. Or heat cap of 30. or you can only chain fire weapons one at a time. ghost heat is brilliant compared to all those ideas.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 04:46 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think LRMs, or better yet all Missile Based weapons should have 240m/s(or more) Velocity(x2 for LRMs),
then Double AMS Damage, to compensate, it will make LRMs more reliable without making them op,
(ATM health could also be doubled as it will keep them at their current resistance to AMS as well)


in general All missiles need to have their Velocities increased to make them Viable,
then use their Missile Health to increase their resistance to AMS to balance them against AMS,
this i feel is the best way to buff Missiles, then balance them vs AMS,
(Currently all Missiles have 1Hp Per Missile)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 08 February 2018 - 05:22 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

You aren't using your head if you are worried about 35 damage in the era of 70-94 damage alpha strikes on anything above 65 tons.

We should not be in the era of 70-94 damage Alpha strikes. We certainly should not be bringing other weapons up to that damage threshold. We should be dealing with reducing that damage to acceptable levels where other weapons can compete adequately. Damage needs to be reduced on the lasers that are at the core of those builds and coolshots need to be removed so they builds have to take heat into account again.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 09:04 AM, said:

Uhh of course you can.

We had IS mechs being stronger without making the engines and heatsinks balanced, thus it is easily possible. Stop trying to stop the fun train.

Jesus, lots of you are pointing out that its not perfect. Well guess what. It's way better than what we have now. Trying to fix every little thing is just going to lead to this going nowhere.

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

We have had OP IS mechs with XL engines before. I don't think its the mountain you are making it out to be.

Exclusively due to GodQuirks


I seem to remember PGI saying they don't want those again.
With only changing weapon values, you could make the Sphere Glass Cannons and the Clam more durable, which would be a strange role shift...or just make the Sphere a little less bad overall, and have lots and lots of quirks on every Spheroid robot in the game


Or just adjust the underlying issues overall, and give quirks to the overall Terribad mechs which have no other options





Fixing the underlying issue seems like a more logical step.
But, according to the Powers that Be, it's a super hard amount of work (which just screams bad coding)
It may be the case



I'll agree with 60% of the changes in the Doc, but don't really disagree enough to complain about them (aside from normal ACs not getting enough love, and cACs becoming mostly superior to isACs)



https://mwomercs.com...gs-ahoy-pgiplz/
Been there, done that
Good luck, I don't have any hope left

[ROSS-128]

Oh no, a clan mech with only two laser hardpoints might *only* be able to do 32 damage.

My Raven 4X will make sure to hang a tiny violin in the cockpit so it can play a sad little song for it, while it pays way more tonnage to do 20 damage at much shorter range.

[Angus McFife VI]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 February 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

i think LRMs, or better yet all Missile Based weapons should have 240m/s(or more) Velocity(x2 for LRMs),
then Double AMS Damage, to compensate, it will make LRMs more reliable without making them op,
(ATM health could also be doubled as it will keep them at their current resistance to AMS as well)


in general All missiles need to have their Velocities increased to make them Viable,
then use their Missile Health to increase their resistance to AMS to balance them against AMS,
this i feel is the best way to buff Missiles, then balance them vs AMS,
(Currently all Missiles have 1Hp Per Missile)

Except MRMs, I feel like MRMs are in the perfect spot right now.

[Formosa The God]

Didnt see anything in there about fixing the amount of shots for clan UACS, either make it the same amount of rounds as IS or make IS the same amount of rounds as Clan.

[Mcgral18]

Formosa The God, on 08 February 2018 - 05:30 PM, said:

Didnt see anything in there about fixing the amount of shots for clan UACS, either make it the same amount of rounds as IS or make IS the same amount of rounds as Clan.

Why would that be done when they take fewer slots and weight fewer tons?

[naterist]

[Andi Nagasia]

Dont LRM me please, on 08 February 2018 - 05:28 PM, said:

Except MRMs, I feel like MRMs are in the perfect spot right now.

agreed, i can see doubling their health, if LRM Velocity is doubled, and AMS Damage is Doubled,
in this way MRMs Balance wont change compared to AMS but LRMs will become more Reliable,