55 replies to this topic

[Uhtred the Pagan]

The ATM's health per missile needs to be higher.
One AMS counters about 80% of 2x ATM12 shot together, which is the maximum you can do before ghost heat, which nobody with any sense does more than that.
One 0.5 tonnage equipment countering 15 tons of equipment(2 ATM12 + 1 probe).
Plus the facing time, heat factor and ammo count which is much higher on the ATM mech than the AMS mech.
ATM has the same problem as clan LRM with the volley pattern, which makes their missiles get hit more by AMS. But ATM's health is much lower, and theire's less missiles than LRM for the tonnage involved. Each missile does more damage, which means higher-quality missile, but for some reason it has less health? WTF?

Its not normal that one mech with one AMS can make an ATM mech useless. With 3-4 mechs having ONE AMS each in opposing team counters COMPLETELY an ATM mech, and multiple ATM mechs if theires more than one.

[El Bandito]

Uhtred the Pagan, on 07 February 2018 - 10:08 PM, said:

The ATM's health per missile needs to be higher.
One AMS counters about 80% of 2x ATM12 shot together, which is the maximum you can do before ghost heat, which nobody with any sense does more than that.

I call horsedung. At most one AMS can shoot down 5-6 ATM and that's about 25% of all missiles.

Uhtred the Pagan, on 07 February 2018 - 10:08 PM, said:

But ATM's health is much lower, and theire's less missiles than LRM for the tonnage involved. Each missile does more damage, which means higher-quality missile, but for some reason it has less health? WTF?

ATM launcher's health is lower than LRM launcher health, but ATM missile health is the same as LRM missile health. Both should be 1.

Uhtred the Pagan, on 07 February 2018 - 10:08 PM, said:

Its not normal that one mech with one AMS can make an ATM mech useless.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 February 2018 - 11:13 PM.

[ramp4ge]

I've had entire vollies of 18 ATMs taken down by single AMSs. Especially if you don't have velocity quirks or don't have the velocity skills picked up yet. And especially if they've got the two points into AMS Overload. It's definitely possible.

But that's at range. Normally you should be using your ATMs under 300 yards and with the velocity skill nodes the AMS doesn't have a lot of time to do anything about them.

It's not a huge problem. The 120 meter minimum range is a lot more annoying.

[BEST EGG]

Uhtred the Pagan, on 07 February 2018 - 10:08 PM, said:

The ATM's health per missile needs to be higher.
One AMS counters about 80% of 2x ATM12 shot together, which is the maximum you can do before ghost heat, which nobody with any sense does more than that.

ramp4ge, on 07 February 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

I've had entire vollies of 18 ATMs taken down by single AMSs.

Both posters are complete liars who must not be listened to. Literally a few days ago, I did some testing with a friend and it was posted on the forums - a single AMS with full skill quirks will only shoot down 5 or 6 ATMs. The OP and other poster are making complete fabrications, and must be disregarded in all further posts on the subject. Butthurt lurmers detected.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

BEST EGG, on 07 February 2018 - 10:57 PM, said:

Both posters are complete liars who must not be listened to. Literally a few days ago, I did some testing with a friend and it was posted on the forums - a single AMS with full skill quirks will only shoot down 5 or 6 ATMs. The OP and other poster are making complete fabrications, and must be disregarded in all further posts on the subject. Butthurt lurmers detected.

I was said friend. AMS while upgraded shoots down a total of 5 ATMs, if you are reversing while the missiles are coming at you then it shoots down up to 6.

If you are losing 80% of an ATM24 volley the enemy has at least triple AMS.

[ramp4ge]

Yes, Jester has 2 LAMSs, but the point still stands. In this case, 3 tons of weapons (with no ammo) almost completely defeating 14 tons of weapons + ammo.

But again, I don't think it's a huge deal. Like I said, I find the minimum range to be far more annoying than the AMS.

[Spheroid]

Oh my god AMS shoots down stuff, what a disaster. Maybe you should use more skillful weapons or shoot targets that don't protect themselves. If AMS was truly a universal piece of equipment you would not have any lurm threads, but every day they are easily found in the forums.

I reject the entire premise of this topic.

Edited by Spheroid, 08 February 2018 - 01:07 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

ramp4ge, on 07 February 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

I've had entire vollies of 18 ATMs taken down by single AMSs. Especially if you don't have velocity quirks or don't have the velocity skills picked up yet. And especially if they've got the two points into AMS Overload. It's definitely possible.

But that's at range. Normally you should be using your ATMs under 300 yards and with the velocity skill nodes the AMS doesn't have a lot of time to do anything about them.

It's not a huge problem. The 120 meter minimum range is a lot more annoying.

I don't want to tell you how to express measurement, i just disapprove of imperial.

Anyways, ATMs are supposed to be useful at most ranges, owing to their different ammo types. I agree that it shouldn't have minimum range, but limiting it just for close-range is a disservice to the weapon system.

[Khobai]

Quote

Oh my god AMS shoots down stuff, what a disaster.

no one is saying AMS shouldnt shoot down ATMs

just that AMS shouldnt be more effective against ATMs than other missile systems

so yeah ATMs need +50% health per missile

Quote

ATM launcher's health is lower than LRM launcher health, but ATM missile health is the same as LRM missile health. Both should be 1.

ATM missile health should be 1.5

because ATMs get less missiles per launcher tonnage

5 tons of LRM launchers gives you 20 missiles per volley
5 tons of ATM launchers only gives you 9 missiles per volley

so when an AMS shoots down 5 LRMs out of an LRM20 volley its only 25% of the volley
but when an AMS shoots down 5 ATMs out of an ATM9 volley its a little over 50% of the volley

ATMs do have a faster velocity than LRMs though, which is why I suggested 1.5 health and not 2 health.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 01:19 AM.

[Knuckles OTool]

Who only shoots 9 atms? That is using the weapon wrong. They arent balanced by tonnage, they are balanced by the fact 15 lrms does 15 damage but in the sweet spot your 4 atms still do 12 damage. Now assume you had 2xlrm 20 vs 2xatm 9's. A little more normal for a loadout. Your 35 lrms do 35 damage but your 13 atms that get through do 39.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

When ATM’s came out I thought that the “raise health of missles and remove minimum range” argument might have a point, the more I have played around with ATMs the more I have become convinced that ATM’s could become completely overpowered (relative to over weapons) if you did either of these things. Without significant limitations in what the weapon system can do ATM boating could be a very bad thing for balance. As is it’s a risk/reward calculation that pilots must figure out to be successful. If you are bringing atm 18 or less...you haven’t seen what this weapon system is really capable of, if used correctly by a pilot who knows how to position and reposition.

[process]

I suppose it depends on whether AMS should do a fixed % reduction to incoming missiles across the board, or if certain missile systems get countered or hard-countered differently. A mech with a substantial investment in AMS plus quirks should absolutely demolish any incoming missiles.

Increasing ATM missile HP to compensate for fewer projectiles seems to make sense, but I also understand each projectile is that much more potent than a single LRM.

[ROSS-128]

I think AMS being more effective against ATMs is just fine, considering ATMs themselves are stronger than other missile weapons, so they still come out ahead overall.

Oh no, you lost 15 damage out of your 144 damage volley, whatever shall you do?

[Xavori]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 08 February 2018 - 08:14 AM, said:

When ATM’s came out I thought that the “raise health of missles and remove minimum range” argument might have a point, the more I have played around with ATMs the more I have become convinced that ATM’s could become completely overpowered (relative to over weapons) if you did either of these things. Without significant limitations in what the weapon system can do ATM boating could be a very bad thing for balance. As is it’s a risk/reward calculation that pilots must figure out to be successful. If you are bringing atm 18 or less...you haven’t seen what this weapon system is really capable of, if used correctly by a pilot who knows how to position and reposition.

ATM's should have been balanced using ammo switching. Alas, CryEngine...

[ramp4ge]

Knuckles OTool, on 08 February 2018 - 02:07 AM, said:

Who only shoots 9 atms? That is using the weapon wrong. They arent balanced by tonnage, they are balanced by the fact 15 lrms does 15 damage but in the sweet spot your 4 atms still do 12 damage. Now assume you had 2xlrm 20 vs 2xatm 9's. A little more normal for a loadout. Your 35 lrms do 35 damage but your 13 atms that get through do 39.

Between 120m and <300m, with the skill nodes.

Anywhere outside the perfect range and the ATM is one of two things.

1) Completely useless
2) A less efficient LRM

If you can exploit that perfect range, which I'll admit, is a really, really fun challenge--especially if you mount them on a sneaky 2nd-line skirmisher--they are very good. But to have someone simply face-tank your missiles as they rush in under 120 yards and completely negate everything you brought to the table is kind of ridiculous.

I'd honestly like to see 0.25 - 0.5 damage per missile under 120 meters. It's not a lot of damage but it's enough to make someone at least think about it before bum-rushing you.

[ramp4ge]

Xavori, on 08 February 2018 - 08:32 AM, said:

ATM's should have been balanced using ammo switching. Alas, CryEngine...

I mean hell. Ammo switching is a thing on PSX games. Pretty much every tank game out there has ammo switching. But I guess when you put legs on your tanks you lose the ability to switch ammo types?

I never really understood why PGI says ammo switching is impossible. Everybody else does it. Hell, you could even set it up so that to switch ammo types you had to actually carry that ammo type. That'd make planning builds more interesting. You'd see 1/2 tons used a lot more.

[Metus regem]

ramp4ge, on 08 February 2018 - 08:40 AM, said:

I mean hell. Ammo switching is a thing on PSX games. Pretty much every tank game out there has ammo switching. But I guess when you put legs on your tanks you lose the ability to switch ammo types?

I never really understood why PGI says ammo switching is impossible. Everybody else does it. Hell, you could even set it up so that to switch ammo types you had to actually carry that ammo type. That'd make planning builds more interesting. You'd see 1/2 tons used a lot more.

From my understanding it is something to do with the limitations in the franken code that was once a version CryEngine or something like that... I mean hell there was a time when they were adjusting the RoF and Ghost Heat on AC/2's and they broke LAA's on Omnimechs in the process.

Now I have heard ideas on how this could've been approached over the years from various people on these boards, I personal like the idea I put forth, and that was simply copy and paste the data for the LB series but tag them either as (Cluster) or (Solid), so in a sense you would have double the LB AC/s, but you would have to chose if you wanted cluster or solid shot units.

That being said, I remember around the time I started playing (that was shortly after Wave 1 Omni's arrived) their weapon guy at the time had said something along the lines that LAMS was almost ready to go, just needed Paul and Russ to sign off on it, then he left the team for some reason... After he left, there was a post by Russ saying that no new weapons were going to be developed for MWO....

[ramp4ge]

Being a long-time World of Tanks player, I generally ignore whenever a developer says "Such and such will never be added". That's been said so many times for World of Tanks that it's pretty much a meme now.

I see what PGI is doing with the ATM. They're trying to simulate the different ammo types by having different damage at different ranges. But this becomes incredibly inconvenient when the highest-damage ammo type also has no minimum range. If the HE missile did 3 damage at 0 meters, you'd have the ultimate wrecking ball.

[Metus regem]

ramp4ge, on 08 February 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Being a long-time World of Tanks player, I generally ignore whenever a developer says "Such and such will never be added". That's been said so many times for World of Tanks that it's pretty much a meme now.

I see what PGI is doing with the ATM. They're trying to simulate the different ammo types by having different damage at different ranges. But this becomes incredibly inconvenient when the highest-damage ammo type also has no minimum range. If the HE missile did 3 damage at 0 meters, you'd have the ultimate wrecking ball.

To be fair, SRM/s are 2 damage at 0m...

So a SRM/6 that weighs 1.5t the same as an ATM/3, yet the SMR/6 does more damage in the same range bracket for the same tonnage as the ATM/3... Stepping it up to 2 SRM/6's vs 1 ATM/6, the damage gap grows 24dmg vs 18dmg

3xSRM/6 (4.5t) vs 1xATM/9 (5t)

36dmg vs 27 dmg

4x SRM/6 (6t) vs ATM/12 (7t)

48dmg vs 36 dmg

All that is if you have the hard point count, but it just shows that ton for ton SRM/s are the better wrecking ball..

What makes ATM/s attractive, is you only need one missile launcher and missile type to do short range murder or long range support.


Personally I was all on board for ATM/s having no minimum range, with the staging ammo, as I knew that ton for ton it was not as efficient as the dedicated launchers, but it would give a template for what PGI could do for the IS MML (Multi Missile Launcher) systems, that can fire both SRM and LRM ammo types.

[ramp4ge]

The problem is though that once you step outside that minimum range, the ATM becomes a guided missile that still does 3/2/1 damage out to over 1,000 meters.

It basically becomes the go-to all-in-one missile, which is kind of what it was designed to do (in tabletop) but they can't have that in this game because it'd instantly obsolete Streaks and SRMs, and maybe even LRMs in many cases. And for better or worse, this game seems to think that no weapons system can completely obsolete another weapons system, even though they kind of already have that with ACs vs UACs..

I used the analogy in another thread. You get this problem when you literally have generational advances in weapons all forced to cooperate without obsoleting eachother even when some weapons were developed to obsolete others. It'd be like having a flight sim with a Sopwith Camel and an F-15, and then forcing them to find parity because the F-15 isn't allowed to obsolete the Sopwith Camel.