55 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

ramp4ge, on 08 February 2018 - 09:40 AM, said:

The problem is though that once you step outside that minimum range, the ATM becomes a guided missile that still does 3/2/1 damage out to over 1,000 meters.

It basically becomes the go-to all-in-one missile, which is kind of what it was designed to do (in tabletop) but they can't have that in this game because it'd instantly obsolete Streaks and SRMs, and maybe even LRMs in many cases. And for better or worse, this game seems to think that no weapons system can completely obsolete another weapons system, even though they kind of already have that with ACs vs UACs..

I used the analogy in another thread. You get this problem when you literally have generational advances in weapons all forced to cooperate without obsoleting eachother even when some weapons were developed to obsolete others. It'd be like having a flight sim with a Sopwith Camel and an F-15, and then forcing them to find parity because the F-15 isn't allowed to obsolete the Sopwith Camel.

I know where you're coming from in this, and in TT for the Clans the ATM became the go-to weapon system, but it was still tonnage and ammo inefficient compared to the more dedicated weapon systems, just as it is here in MWO... ATM/s also got wrecked by AMS in TT, a single AMS could shout down an ATM/12 in TT, by the same token the AMS couldn't shoot down an entire LRM/20, it just didn't put out the dice to do it.

In TT, the IS kept the standard AC/s (and to a lesser degree the LAC/s) relevant to Ultra and LB series AC/s by adding special ammo...

But yes, I agree, there is no sane way to make a Sopwith Camel equal to an F-15... at least not in a twisting dog-fight.... It is a constant race between defensive measures and offensive measures when it comes to weapons and armour development.

[poltergoost]

shoot MRMs near an enemy with lots of LAMs and watch them turn it off fast or blow up from overheating

[ROSS-128]

If we ran with that, then RACs would be amazing monsters that obsolete both ACs and UACs, heavy/light PPCs would completely obsolete standard PPCs, and compact heatsinks would be the king of all cooling systems because they were developed the latest.

"Newer=better" only ever seems to apply to Clans for some reason though. IS stuff always has tradeoffs, and they have to pray to the balance gods that the downsides don't outweigh the upsides.

[FupDup]

ROSS-128, on 08 February 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

If we ran with that, then RACs would be amazing monsters that obsolete both ACs and UACs, heavy/light PPCs would completely obsolete standard PPCs, and compact heatsinks would be the king of all cooling systems because they were developed the latest.

"Newer=better" only ever seems to apply to Clans for some reason though. IS stuff always has tradeoffs, and they have to pray to the balance gods that the downsides don't outweigh the upsides.

Not to mention, how about all of the IS tech that was copied from Clan tech? How in the hell did they make things like the ERML perform worse when they had captured many working copies of the Clan ERML to base it off of?

To be fair though much of the newer Clam tech also has some trade-offs involved, albeit not quite as drastic (e.g. HAGs are less concentrated damage than normal Gauss, ATMs have lower damage per ton efficiency than Lurms or SRMs, etc.). The invasion-era tech is overall the best for them.

[Nema Nabojiv]

ramp4ge, on 08 February 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

I see what PGI is doing with the ATM. They're trying to simulate the different ammo types by having different damage at different ranges. But this becomes incredibly inconvenient when the highest-damage ammo type also has no minimum range. If the HE missile did 3 damage at 0 meters, you'd have the ultimate wrecking ball.

Not quite. Thats only 72 damage. MRMs do 80 and noone complains about it. It can be balanced out by making their tracking really bad up close so that you'll be forced to use them like srms/mrms.

[Metus regem]

FupDup, on 08 February 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

Not to mention, how about all of the IS tech that was copied from Clan tech? How in the hell did they make things like the ERML perform worse when they had captured many working copies of the Clan ERML to base it off of?

Lack of Unobtanium, fairy dust and weapons grade balonium....

[Apache1990]

If you're losing entire ATM volleys to an AMS, it's because I'm standing in between you and your intended target to maximize the time the AMS is firing (or you're hitting massed AMS, which is another story).

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Nema Nabojiv, on 08 February 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

Not quite. Thats only 72 damage. MRMs do 80 and noone complains about it. It can be balanced out by making their tracking really bad up close so that you'll be forced to use them like srms/mrms.

So would you give the Clans a weapon that could enable a build to be both a (left click/right click) splat 144 dmg build (point blank backshots for the win!) & a 144 damage lock on build at optimal range? Even if you reduced the splat damage under minimum range to 1 per missle it would be a major balance issue when deployed on atm boats.

[ramp4ge]

That's why I think 0.25 or 0.5 damage per missile under 120m would be good. That would at least make someone think about bum-rushing the ATM boat before doing it instead of it being the reflex, 100% effective tactic.

At 0.5 damage, an LRM boat under 120m would be able to do 12 damage to a rushing target. Enough to make them wonder if bum-rushing is a good idea rather than it just being the default counter that always works.

Edited by ramp4ge, 08 February 2018 - 02:36 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Spheroid, on 08 February 2018 - 01:05 AM, said:

Oh my god AMS shoots down stuff, what a disaster. Maybe you should use more skillful weapons or shoot targets that don't protect themselves. If AMS was truly a universal piece of equipment you would not have any lurm threads, but every day they are easily found in the forums.

I reject the entire premise of this topic.

That a weapon is absolute garbage to the point where it's countermeasures are outdone by a rock points to how crudworthy LRMs are these days.

It does take more than one AMS to hose ATMs completely, but it's one of those wonderful things that basically keeps most guided missiles off the top of the charts. There's a pile of situational situations that narrow the ATMs role considerably. It's given a deadzone rather than damage reduction (and there's weapons that should have a min range that don't, and ones that don't that do, and so on). It's tremendously weak to AMS fire, meaning one AMS will pretty much neuter one ATM launcher, and three will cripple anything short of a 20+ launch (never mind if people actually seriously used AMS, which would require missiles actually being a significant threat). And of course, the usual host of issues with lock-on weapons, including any map with enough cover and no way to actually, y'know, destroy said cover.

It's kinda hilarious. ATMs actually function (and LRMs don't, but people use them anyway) because they're not good enough to get people to use the equipment that would hose it, yet if they were made to function properly, people would more frequently use those countermeasures and obliterate them anyway.

On the other hand, they'd at least be packing 1.5 tons less stuff devoted to mega-alphas. We really, really need to have more defensive tech options, including reflective and reactive armor.

[Khobai]

1) AMS is way too good against ATMs compared to other missile systems. its a fact. the math has been shown. you cant dispute it. ATMs need a 50% health increase. end of discussion.

2) The way ATMs work now is stupid and directly contradicts the tabletop spirit of the weapon. ATMs are supposed to be a versatile missile thats useful at all ranges. But for obvious balance reasons should not be better than SRMs at short range or better than LRMs at long range.

ATMs should do some damage under 120m instead of zero damage. They should do less damage than they do now from 120m-270m because 3 damage is broken. And they should do more damage above 550m. They also should not outrange LRMs so their max range should be 810m.

ATM damage stepping should more like:

<120= ~1 damage per missile (instead of 0)
120-270= 2.5 damage per missile (instead of 3)
320-540= 2 damage per missile (midrange increased from 500m to 540m)
590-810= 1.5 damage per missile (instead of 1 and max range of 810m instead of 1100m)

ATMS would be better under 120m
less broken at 120m-270m
better over 540m
And AMS wouldnt wreck them

fixt.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 03:19 PM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

ramp4ge, on 08 February 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

That's why I think 0.25 or 0.5 damage per missile under 120m would be good. That would at least make someone think about bum-rushing the ATM boat before doing it instead of it being the reflex, 100% effective tactic.

At 0.5 damage, an LRM boat under 120m would be able to do 12 damage to a rushing target. Enough to make them wonder if bum-rushing is a good idea rather than it just being the default counter that always works.

Can’t do 0.5 per missle or some lrm boat builds start to become hybrid splat/ lock-on with range builds and get way more powerful than they currently are. Make it .25 per missle (atm or lrm) and probably no one argues as it’s hardly worth the heat to try it...except if you are truly desperate. At .25 a missle though....I’m still rushing you....fyi

[Brain Cancer]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 08 February 2018 - 03:19 PM, said:

Can’t do 0.5 per missle or some lrm boat builds start to become hybrid splat/ lock-on with range builds and get way more powerful than they currently are. Make it .25 per missle (atm or lrm) and probably no one argues as it’s hardly worth the heat to try it...except if you are truly desperate. At .25 a missle though....I’m still rushing you....fyi

LRM boats being "way more powerful" would be what, deadly to people with half a brain as opposed to none whatsoever?

Deadzoning weaponry is anti-fun and doesn't even match up to how said weapons function in any other MW game or tabletop. It's strictly a PGI torment, much like spooky heat.

[Dee Eight]

FupDup, on 08 February 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

Not to mention, how about all of the IS tech that was copied from Clan tech? How in the hell did they make things like the ERML perform worse when they had captured many working copies of the Clan ERML to base it off of?

MATERIAL SCIENCES.... remember...the clans while they went thru a few civil wars, didn't lose all the technology they had because they didn't make it a point to blow up all the factories that made the stuff like the Inner sphere folks were doing. As to all the captured clan hardware available to study... its all fine and good to understand HOW something is put together, but if you cannot duplicate the parts needed to put it together... having an assembly manual alone doesn't very well do you much good does it ?

[Yosharian]

The ATM/LRM situation is one of feast or famine, it's been said already many times that the major problem these weapon systems have is that they become almost completely useless in certain situations. If I bring a Gauss Rifle, that weapon is never going to do no damage at all, or be completely negated, it's always going to do something.

If I bring an LRM/ATM launcher, though, several things could happen:

- The terrain might favour my weapon (Polar) or might render it difficult to land hits reliably (most other maps). My Gauss Rifle will never be negatively affected by terrain.

- The enemy might close the gap against me, rendering my weapon useless. Meanwhile, my Gauss Rifle works just fine.

- The enemy might have several ECM mechs, which renders my weapon almost useless if I'm trying to shoot the ECM mech or someone under its umbrella. Yes there are certain ways of negating ECM: NARC is rarely taken by allies, you can bring it yourself but it impacts severely on your own tube count; TAG is really annoying to hold down all the time and the red line is basically an invitation to get shot; active probes are too short range to reliably defeat enemy ECM. My Gauss Rifle doesn't care about ECM.

- The enemy might bring AMS. AMS is devastating to ATMs and pretty good against LRMs too. My Gauss Rifle is unaffected by AMS.

So who, given these conditions, is going to bring guided missiles into a competitive match over a weapon like Gauss, or any other weapon which fires directly onto their opponent without the need for complex guidance?

If missiles were this bad in the actual Battletech world, they'd have been abandoned millennia ago in favour of more reliable weapon systems.

[Rusharn]

I don't see a problem with the effectiveness of AMS verses ATM if they reduced the dead zone for the ATM's down to 90m, the 120m is just to wide of a dead zone for a weapon with so many hard counters, high face time, and low ammo efficiency. Just my 2 cents.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

El Bandito, on 07 February 2018 - 10:32 PM, said:

I call horsedung. At most one AMS can shoot down 5-6 ATM and that's about 25% of all missiles.




ATM launcher's health is lower than LRM launcher health, but ATM missile health is the same as LRM missile health. Both should be 1.

no he is right.i have an 4xATM12 MADCAT MKII and i had various encounters where 1 enemy mech countered all of my
2xATM12 volleys (like OP said you fire 2x12´s at the most because of insane heat that kicks in otherwise)
Had a match just now which made me google the issue and found this thread.
So basically AMS is definitely OP against ATM´s.
If i fire 8 volleys of 2xATM12 against a MAD-IIc and have 98 damage all together out of it (also fired 1xsalvo of 4xErMed lasers at him which is also in that damage) something is totally wrong (ALSO he was at the beginning 500m away from me and closed in up to 280m before i died)
Without the AMS blocking issue it is difficult enough allready when you consider the heat created by 2xATM12´s fired
(you can do about three salvos of them before you shut down, fiering my 4xATM12´s all together at once raises my heat
to about 95%, so thats not an option)

[Spheroid]

Seven month necro? Really?

[S t P a u l]

SHRedo, on 24 September 2018 - 10:55 AM, said:

I have an 4xATM12 MADCAT MKII

100% of your missiles deserve to be shot down.

[Phyrce]

I didn't read the entire thread so someone may have brought this up. At optimal range ATM's do MASSIVE amounts of damage compared to LRMS. Losing 50% of your missiles still brings your damage on par with an equivalent LRM launcher. Buffing a weapon system that can already be boated to a point they can one shot people is an insane request.