366 replies to this topic

[cougurt]

Mystere, on 11 February 2018 - 07:05 AM, said:

Bite me!

i mean, i don't really care what the reason is for someone's stats being bad. whether they're using bad mechs, bad builds, non-competitive control methods, or if they're just straight up bad, the end result is a player who's performing at a substandard level. i'm not going to shame you for it, but you don't get to decide that the numbers are meaningless just because you don't like them. which isn't to say that they're a 100% accurate indication of player skill either, but generally they're a good rough estimate.

Edited by cougurt, 11 February 2018 - 05:33 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Take public stats away and you'd still get the same response, just distilled into three words: dunning kruger effect.

Bad players and good players have vastly different realities. That's just the way it is.

[Koniving]

Zergling, on 11 February 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

Aside from that, logically if today's MWO is easier than the past, then shouldn't players be able to score better now?

On a fair and honest battlefield, yes.
But you have X 100 tonner with 7 tons worth of extra armor at no cost other than some quirks and nodes, and another mech that still has some negative quirks.
Square them off and what happens?
Now assume the actual better player is the one that also has all the advantages with none of the disadvantages? Does it actually prove the better player's skill?
What if the less skilled player is in the mech with all the advantages? Who wins then?

Now lets take one of the great players from the World Championship and put him in a bad predicament. What do we get? The 12 damage Executioner. Does that mean he sucks? Or that circumstances were stacked against him?

What if we have 24 equal players, in similarly sized mechs, and had them fire at each other in a firing line with no focused fire? What if we do the same with focused fire? What if one of those mechs happened to have 11 tons worth of extra armor beyond the max because of quirks and stats? What if another one of those mechs could fire 5 times faster than other mechs but only had to deal with 70% of the heat it was generating because of those quirks and skill nodes?

There's a lot of what-the-fuckeries that we gotta account for with "skill", "skillz", "quirks", and that doesn't even go into the issues with numerous maps like invisible walls that aren't just close to buildings but in completely random open areas too.

So... logically, not really. The game is easier for all, sure, but it is also easier to game the system, easier to ******** the stats, easier to trick the dumb players that think Meta is king. It isn't. Meta is decided by those whom know how to game the system, those whom are competitive and know the best advantage is to make sure everyone else uses the ******** builds they create so that when those builds appear, they know how to kill them and win, after all they designed the builds, they gave them their deliberate weaknesses to enhance their tactical advantages. So while those builds are good at something, they always have a weakness to be exploited and exploited they are by those at the top -- after all, that's whom built them and shared them in the first place. When you have an edge, you don't share it if you're competitive, instead you share something inferior, something you can see and beat every single time.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Koniving, on 11 February 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

.
So... logically, not really. The game is easier for all, sure, but it is also easier to game the system, easier to ******** the stats, easier to trick the dumb players that think Meta is king. It isn't. Meta is decided by those whom know how to game the system, those whom are competitive and know the best advantage is to make sure everyone else uses the ******** builds they create so that when those builds appear, they know how to kill them and win, after all they designed the builds, they gave them their deliberate weaknesses to enhance their tactical advantages. So while those builds are good at something, they always have a weakness to be exploited and exploited they are by those at the top -- after all, that's whom built them and shared them in the first place. When you have an edge, you don't share it if you're competitive, instead you share something inferior, something you can see and beat every single time.

Lol, tinfoil hat's on tight.

What competitive player is giving out builds that they themselves aren't using? I go out personally and give people my own builds in hopes that I find stronger competition, because all you people scared of meta like its some sort of sin keep filling up queues. Every time I'm on IS on my merc contracts I get a load of people running builds that don't even make any sense, its not that people don't know how to beat them, its just that there's so many different weaknesses and ways to beat the mech with so little strengths that it gets that I honestly wonder how they thought it was a good idea in the first place. Clan side's guilty of it too, but to a lesser extent with the lower customization offered by omnimechs.

When will you learn that competitive players are competitive? They look for a challenge, not look to farm people who don't know better. We want other players to GIT GUD so we can have some good fights out there that are actually hard rather than just farming the queues every match with KDRs popping over 4 just as a solo. Without challenge we become worse.


EDIT:

Thinking about it, YOU are the one who gives other players inferior builds and information. I see your posts in the new player section telling players how LBX is better than ACs or UACs, all the misinformation you'll spout, while never seeming to steer them towards any sort of actually good builds, then spamming a few videos of yours. You've even admitted to keeping yourself down in low tiers intentionally, which really doesn't seem like something an experienced player should do.

You're exactly what you're saying is bad about comp players. The projection is that blatant.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 11 February 2018 - 06:49 PM.

[Zergling]

Koniving, on 11 February 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

On a fair and honest battlefield, yes.
But you have X 100 tonner with 7 tons worth of extra armor at no cost other than some quirks and nodes, and another mech that still has some negative quirks.
Square them off and what happens?
Now assume the actual better player is the one that also has all the advantages with none of the disadvantages? Does it actually prove the better player's skill?
What if the less skilled player is in the mech with all the advantages? Who wins then?

Now lets take one of the great players from the World Championship and put him in a bad predicament. What do we get? The 12 damage Executioner. Does that mean he sucks? Or that circumstances were stacked against him?

What if we have 24 equal players, in similarly sized mechs, and had them fire at each other in a firing line with no focused fire? What if we do the same with focused fire? What if one of those mechs happened to have 11 tons worth of extra armor beyond the max because of quirks and stats? What if another one of those mechs could fire 5 times faster than other mechs but only had to deal with 70% of the heat it was generating because of those quirks and skill nodes?

There's a lot of what-the-fuckeries that we gotta account for with "skill", "skillz", "quirks", and that doesn't even go into the issues with numerous maps like invisible walls that aren't just close to buildings but in completely random open areas too.

So... logically, not really. The game is easier for all, sure, but it is also easier to game the system, easier to ******** the stats, easier to trick the dumb players that think Meta is king. It isn't. Meta is decided by those whom know how to game the system, those whom are competitive and know the best advantage is to make sure everyone else uses the ******** builds they create so that when those builds appear, they know how to kill them and win, after all they designed the builds, they gave them their deliberate weaknesses to enhance their tactical advantages. So while those builds are good at something, they always have a weakness to be exploited and exploited they are by those at the top -- after all, that's whom built them and shared them in the first place. When you have an edge, you don't share it if you're competitive, instead you share something inferior, something you can see and beat every single time.

Sorry, but you are making a lot of excuses here.

It may surprise you, but a lot of the top players in the game actually often play mechs and builds that aren't 'meta' or 'top tier', because they are actually seeking some variety to alleviate repetitive boredom and increased challenge.
Likewise, many of them are leveling up through the skill tree, starting out with nothing.

Despite those disadvantages, the good players in the game are still able to achieve high stats; they might not achieve as good stats as they would playing meta/top tier stuff, but they will still well above the average.


Hell, the last time I played I was leveling up one of the worst mechs in the game, the Uziel 2S, and still achieved above average stats despite being handicapped by Tier 1 matchmaking and the fact I wasn't even bothering to try to play well.
Yet I am by no means a great player; a top player would score substantially better than I did under the same circumstances, achieving stats in the top 1% despite those handicaps.

Edited by Zergling, 11 February 2018 - 06:54 PM.

[BlueStrat]

November11th, on 09 February 2018 - 01:16 PM, said:

Happens to me all the time. Im actually not terrible at the game, i just dont have T1 internet or the best gaming computer out there.

Yes, same here. I'm 60 on a fixed income with a potato PC and cheapest internet. I play at sub-20FPS. I'm not and never have been someone who valued stats much even back in the MW4/Mercs/Veng/BK days of GameZone ladder leagues. With all that, it's only the fact I don't often do something stupid in a match, bring a viable build (usually ) and have a passing grasp of basic small-unit maneuver & tactics that's gotten me to T3.

[PocketYoda]

Why does no one ever show those 0 to 12 kills games on videos or end results... Oh right because that would not show how amazing at a virtual unbalanced game they are...

Edited by Samial, 11 February 2018 - 06:56 PM.

[UnofficialOperator]

Samial, on 11 February 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

Why does no one ever show those 0 to 12 kills games on videos or end results... Oh right because that would not show how amazing at a virtual unbalanced game they are...

And frankly this just shows how inept or how poor your understanding of the game is because I don't think you are playing at a high level

12-0 games are mostly because of the snowballing effect in an aggressive match.

A common game score is actually around 12-4 when everyone is playing fairly well and aggressive.

Almost all the 12-11 games I've seen are because of passive gameplay with sniping/poking/LRMs in lower tiers which takes like over 8 to 10 mins to finish.

This is why the bads like it that much in the low tiers because it "feels" like they accomplished something.

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 11 February 2018 - 07:05 PM.

[Zergling]

I record all my battles, but I'm not sure if I've saved any of my 12-0 battles, because they just aren't interesting to watch, win or lose.

[Davegt27]

OP very interesting
I do look at my stats and I do care about going from .82 to .72 kill/death ratio in less then 6 months(pretty impressive for someone with over 20K drops if you ask me)

I want to get to 2000 drops in my Jager DD (yeah I know a lot of pain for little gain)

but the coolest thing in this thread is the A10 stuff which I used to work on back in the day
worked very many AGM65 and Hud write ups



very cool Mystere

http://www.thrustmas...thog800x600.jpg

Edited by Davegt27, 11 February 2018 - 07:14 PM.

[Xetelian]

This topic becomes more relevant with all the people calling others "bads".

This thread is toxic and while the MWO community doesn't even compare to a MOBA community in toxicity it is still toxic.

You wonder why the devs seldom venture into the forums. Why they don't like to take questions from the community. Why you have to venture to twitter and make 1000s of @russ_bolluck messages to get anywhere.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Xetelian, on 11 February 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

This topic becomes more relevant with all the people calling others "bads".

This thread is toxic and while the MWO community doesn't even compare to a MOBA community in toxicity it is still toxic.

You wonder why the devs seldom venture into the forums. Why they don't like to take questions from the community. Why you have to venture to twitter and make 1000s of @russ_bolluck messages to get anywhere.

Do you have any better short hand for "people who are bad at the game based on their statistics and/or lack of understanding or effort in thegame"? If not then "bads" seems like the next best option.

[UnofficialOperator]

Xetelian, on 11 February 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

This topic becomes more relevant with all the people calling others "bads".

This thread is toxic and while the MWO community doesn't even compare to a MOBA community in toxicity it is still toxic.

You wonder why the devs seldom venture into the forums. Why they don't like to take questions from the community. Why you have to venture to twitter and make 1000s of @russ_bolluck messages to get anywhere.

You would need to waste at least 2 to 3 fulltime customer service staff just to get through the posts, not to mention answering them with any degree of competence. And since its a small team, the only ones with competence regarding gameplay or balance issues probably have something better to do.

Like look at spreadsheets... from T5...

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 11 February 2018 - 07:33 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Xetelian, on 11 February 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

This topic becomes more relevant with all the people calling others "bads".

This thread is toxic and while the MWO community doesn't even compare to a MOBA community in toxicity it is still toxic.

You wonder why the devs seldom venture into the forums. Why they don't like to take questions from the community. Why you have to venture to twitter and make 1000s of @russ_bolluck messages to get anywhere.

I think in order to have a fair look at things, we need to have a fair look at where the other party is coming from, and by extension, where they stand.

Like me for instance. I am THE WORST autocannon user. Acs and me just don't work. And i hardly ever play them. The joy of dakka isn't known to me. Which is why i will never participate in a balance discussion regarding acs. Because i know i don't have the knowledge, skill and experience to provide a meaningful comment, let alone provide good insight.

Self awareness is an important tool. It lets you realize when something is really wrong, or if it's a pbkac problem. Unfortunately, people with pbkac problems are often the kind to suffer from dunning kruger.

Is it possible for a bad player to give good insight? Yes. But the odds are low. So why should anyone give a bad player a fair share on the soapbox? A thousand monkeys whaling on a thousand keyboards for a thousand years will eventually churn out shakespeare. But we don't let monkeys write literature, do we?

[Mystere]

Xetelian, on 11 February 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

This topic becomes more relevant with all the people calling others "bads".

It seems the irony was lost on quite a few posters.

[Kin3ticX]

I think Jarls List actually improved the forums, made it less toxic.

You see, i used to make battle with people trying to tell me whats what.

Now, if I look them up and they have a .6WL/KDR and they dont even display their Tier, I just ignore them, send them to the proverbial sippy table.

It's less work for the mods. It's a win win if you ask me.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 11 February 2018 - 10:20 PM.

[sycocys]

It's actually pretty easy to just not care about stats once you realize that quite a lot of the community doesn't care about things like game balance or actually having interesting gameplay modes. Things like that don't matter much when this "game" has really become little more than an art project for nerds that will buy anything that resembles a digitized asset from a decades old franchise.

[Koniving]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

Lol, tinfoil hat's on tight.

What competitive player is giving out builds that they themselves aren't using? I go out personally and give people my own builds in hopes that I find stronger competition, because all you people scared of meta like its some sort of sin keep filling up queues. Every time I'm on IS on my merc contracts I get a load of people running builds that don't even make any sense, its not that people don't know how to beat them, its just that there's so many different weaknesses and ways to beat the mech with so little strengths that it gets that I honestly wonder how they thought it was a good idea in the first place. Clan side's guilty of it too, but to a lesser extent with the lower customization offered by omnimechs.

When will you learn that competitive players are competitive? They look for a challenge, not look to farm people who don't know better. We want other players to GIT GUD so we can have some good fights out there that are actually hard rather than just farming the queues every match with KDRs popping over 4 just as a solo. Without challenge we become worse.


EDIT:

Thinking about it, YOU are the one who gives other players inferior builds and information. I see your posts in the new player section telling players how LBX is better than ACs or UACs, all the misinformation you'll spout, while never seeming to steer them towards any sort of actually good builds, then spamming a few videos of yours. You've even admitted to keeping yourself down in low tiers intentionally, which really doesn't seem like something an experienced player should do.

You're exactly what you're saying is bad about comp players. The projection is that blatant.

Try LBX's, you'd be surprised at how fast they kill once the armor is gone, and they do the same damage against armor.

If you haven't, then you speak of only the ignorance they teach.

What's important about gameplay is fun. If you're not having fun, what point is there in playing a game?
Tier 2 and up are boring as ****, the same builds day in and day out, the same ways to kill them, the same ways to deal with them. Okay close range meta, stay out of range and kill. Laser vomit meta, let them 'unload' on another player and kill them while they are overheated -- that or they kill themselves trying to shoot you. AC meta? Sneak up behind them, shoot leg, while they limp pick them apart and laugh menaically. Missile boat meta? Avoid getting locked, get into range (or stay out of range) and destroy the part with the best launchers, now pick them apart.

The list goes on and on.

[Koniving]

In the "lower" tiers you'll find more originality. The flamer plus SPL combination? B33f didn't come up with it on his own, he heard about it. Or if he didn't, well I've seen it before his video was published so whether coincidence or simple fact, people were using it before him and they were in tier 3 and 4. Creativity sparks down there, and these builds get modified and perfected as they climb up. After all the build wasn't efficient enough to kill instantly, that got perfected as it was taken up.

My own anti-meta rigs sometimes climb up. For example one of the best HBK 4G builds on meta mech from 2013 originated as a build that I gave a new player, and only wound up there because he, himself, put it there.

He and his friend are the medium mech dogs escorting my stock Victor here.

Training session; escort the stock mech. Though as you can see I don't need escorting; standard heatsinks are not a crutch for me. Are they a crutch for you?

Both were given builds designed by me. He liked his. She tweaked hers a bit as it didn't quite suit her playstyle. And that's the thing, I don't build to meta mech standards; everyone knows how to kill them (and if they don't, they didn't do their homework). I build to the player's playstyle or at least what they tell me of the playstyle.

What good is a mech build that doesn't suit how you play? If someone is a ranged fighter and you give them a close range meta and they don't even know how to get close, what did you do other than **** them over? If they like ACs and you pump laser vomit on them because "it is best" and they suck at it, what does that do to their trust in you to help them?

[Angus McFife VI]

Koniving, theres nothing skillful about crushing tier 5s in a smurf account, go away.