366 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

Der Geisterbaer, on 15 February 2018 - 01:12 AM, said:

And that "coverage" didn't boil down to the "lying to oneself" aspect of the last sentence in your otherwise unnecessary "full quote"?

The problem is when a potato gets called out and tries to deny being a potato.

It's no problem if a potato is called out and says "yeah I'm a potato."

Like me. I don't deny it. If someone tells me I'm a potato, I just say, "yes I am", and move on.

That's what not caring truly looks like, instead of "oh, but I'm not actually a potato, because XYZ!"

Ackchyually!!!!1111uno

[Khobai]

Quote

Regardless of group or solo, you can still get an idea of how well someone plays based on their stats

the only idea you can get someones stats is how much they care about their stats.

stats are fairly meaningless given how easy they are to manipulate in group queue and in faction play.

all you have to do is join a large group of decent players, and seal club smaller groups/groups of two over and over again, because theres literally no matchmaker to ensure matches are equal. Typically games with working matchmakers try to match teams up with opponents so they win ~50% and lose ~50% of games. But in MWO, as long as your group is stacked with mostly good players, you will win far more than 50% of your matches in group queue simply because there is no matchmaker.

its the same with faction play with premades sealclubbing pugs. faction play stats dont mean anything either when one team is stacked to win most of their games because of a non-existing matchmaking system. wow your organized unit slaughtered some pugs... do you feel special now that your stats got a boost?


solaris, as much as I hate the concept, will actually be a far better indication of player skill. at least 1v1 skill. the solaris ladder will show who the best players actually are because it wont be possible to manipulate your solaris stats because it will match you up against equally skilled opponents as well as making sure theyre in equally powerful mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2018 - 01:52 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 01:26 AM, said:

the only thing you can get an idea of from stats is how much people care about their stats.

the stats are fairly meaningless given how easy they are to manipulate in group queue.

all you have to do is join a larger group of good players, and seal club smaller groups/groups of two over and over again, because theres literally no matchmaker to ensure matches are equal. you will win the vast majority of the time.

stats are meaningless without a working matchmaker.

solaris, as much as I hate the concept, will actually be a better indication of skill. at least 1v1 skill.

I addressed that part. You can typically tell if someone is getting carried in group queue because their W/L and K/D might be good, but their average match score will be mediocre to average (below or hovering at 300). Likewise, you might find a player that has ok'ish W/L and K/D (like 1.5-2.0 range for both) but has a really high matchscore (like 400+), due to playing only solo queue.

It is definitely harder to compare stats once they pass a certain point (like >3.0 W/L >3.0 K/D, >375 matchscore), but it is a no-brainer to compare those same stats to someone that's below 1.0 W/L, below 1.0 K/D and below 250 matchscore.

Edited by Vxheous, 15 February 2018 - 01:37 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

YueFei, on 15 February 2018 - 01:17 AM, said:

The problem is when a potato gets called out and tries to deny being a potato.

For whom exactly is that a "problem" and why? The intellectual dishonesty already started at the point where someone's opinion / input is (allegedly) refuted on grounds of this person "being a potato" stat wise. I certainly won't blame anyone for trying to defend against such attacks that have no place in an actual discussion - at least as long as the discussion doesn't revolve around the stats themselves - despite such attempts of defence not accomplishing anything within the mindset of the person who made the attack. The derailed discussion then merely stays derailed ~shrug~

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 15 February 2018 - 01:50 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I addressed that part. You can typically tell if someone is getting carried in group queue because their W/L and K/D might be good, but their average match score will be mediocre to average (below or hovering at 300). Likewise, you might find a player that has ok'ish W/L and K/D (like 1.5-2.0 range for both) but has a really high matchscore (like 400+), due to playing only solo queue.

im not just talking about people getting carried though.

im also talking about creating groups comprised of mostly good players to take advantage of the fact theres no matchmaker that puts an equal number of good players on the opposite team.

the purpose of a matchmaker is that as you win more its supposed to match you up against stronger opponents. and as you lose more its supposed to match you up against weaker opponents. ideally each team should have as close to a 50% chance of winning or losing to ensure the fairest match possible.

We dont have that though. We dont have ANYTHING. It just takes random people in the queue and matches them up against your team of all good players. And by stacking your team with mostly good players against a random mismatch of players in the queue, youre giving yourself a major advantage. You may not win every game but youre gonna win far more than the 50% you should if the matchmaker worked properly.

So any stats derived from a flawed system like that really dont mean anything.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2018 - 02:12 AM.

[Dago Red]

Vxheous, on 15 February 2018 - 12:59 AM, said:

Pretty sure Mischief already covered the topic of "I don't play to win, I just play to have fun" in a previous post.

Ah yes the kind of well thought out rebuttal to a post that actually had thought put into it that I've come to expect.

"Your input is irrelevant and have I mentioned how much everyone is potatoes and how big my epeen is yet today?"

Hmm might have actually painted with too broad a brush with that one but I stand by it as apparently it's the done thing these days.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

you will not stats and Compared to others ... do not want leaderboards and evaluations...PLAY NOT MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAMES !

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 01:57 AM, said:

im not just talking about people getting carried though.

im also talking about creating groups comprised of mostly good players to take advantage of the fact theres no matchmaker that puts an equal number of good players on the opposite team.

the purpose of a matchmaker is that as you win more its supposed to match you up against stronger opponents. and as you lose more its supposed to match you up against weaker opponents. ideally each team should have as close to a 50% chance of winning or losing to ensure the fairest match possible.

We dont have that though. We dont have ANYTHING. It just takes random people in the queue and matches them up against your team of all good players. And by stacking your team with mostly good players against a random mismatch of players in the queue, youre giving yourself a major advantage. You may not win every game but youre gonna win far more than the 50% you should if the matchmaker worked properly.

So any stats derived from a flawed system like that really dont mean anything.

You're basically saying good players playing against a team of potentially worse players will end up with good stats because they're going to be better than those said players. At the same time, good stats don't mean they're good players? I get where you're coming from with the whole lack of equal skill matchmaking in group queue, but that's probably more a population issue.

Dago Red, on 15 February 2018 - 02:03 AM, said:

Ah yes the kind of well thought out rebuttal to a post that actually had thought put into it that I've come to expect.

"Your input is irrelevant and have I mentioned how much everyone is potatoes and how big my epeen is yet today?"

Hmm might have actually painted with too broad a brush with that one but I stand by it as apparently it's the done thing these days.

I didn't say your input is irrelevant, I only pointed out that Mischief had already covered the topic you brought up.

Edited by Vxheous, 15 February 2018 - 02:30 AM.

[Dago Red]

Vxheous, on 15 February 2018 - 02:26 AM, said:

I didn't say your input is irrelevant, I only pointed out that Mischief had already covered the topic you brought up.

Considering my post was a reply to his on the topic that disagreed with his core premise yes I am aware that he's commented on the subject.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 01:26 AM, said:

all you have to do is join a large group of decent players

Aaaand more absolute garbage coming via your keyboard.

Lets go back A FEW PAGES where once again fact was provided and as usual, you totally ignored it because you cannot argue against fact. Well, you try, but you do an amazingly bad job of it each time.

The funny part - I forgot to mention something - The Season 18 was done in GroupQ in a size rarely larger than 4 players. Usually 2 or 3 of us.

So yet again dispelling beyond all doubt you have no idea what you are talking about. But then isn't as if you're not already the laughing stock, you just keep adding more fuel to the fire.

As I've said before - Just stop, stop with the rubbish/trolling/unfounded claims that you spout day in, day out. People are growing eternally sick of it.

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 01:26 AM, said:

Spoiler

the only idea you can get someones stats is how much they care about their stats.

stats are fairly meaningless given how easy they are to manipulate in group queue and in faction play.

all you have to do is join a large group of decent players, and seal club smaller groups/groups of two over and over again, because theres literally no matchmaker to ensure matches are equal. Typically games with working matchmakers try to match teams up with opponents so they win ~50% and lose ~50% of games. But in MWO, as long as your group is stacked with mostly good players, you will win far more than 50% of your matches in group queue simply because there is no matchmaker.

its the same with faction play with premades sealclubbing pugs. faction play stats dont mean anything either when one team is stacked to win most of their games because of a non-existing matchmaking system. wow your organized unit slaughtered some pugs... do you feel special now that your stats got a boost?

As for the rest of total waste of text - Go back again and look at the stats I posted and even explained.

- What to look for.
- How to interpret them accurately.

The absolute kicker - my post even covered SoloQ which (in your above waste of text), you totally ignore as well. I mean you cannot make up any fanciful claims about that because it's you and only you in control of it. And well, looking at yours...

Would you like me to train you so you can improve?

Edited by justcallme A S H, 15 February 2018 - 02:42 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The absolute kicker - my post even covered SoloQ which (in your above waste of text), you totally ignore as well. I mean you cannot make up any fanciful claims about that because it's you and only you in control of it. And well, looking at yours...

a real matchmaker doesnt exist in solo q either.

and yes stats are meaningless without a functional matchmaker

without a functional matchmaker theres no way to guarantee every match you played was fair and against opponents of equal skill level.

im sorry if the truth offends you.

stats are meaningless right now. and what youre trying to statshame me? youre just proving how pathetic you really are. lmao. you are the exact problem were talking about in this thread. Why people dont want their stats public because people like you are completely toxic and try to bully people so you can feel special about yourself.

you need to get over yourself and accept that different people play the game for different reasons.

I play the game for fun. I dont play for stats, achievements, and I dont care about winning or losing. those things dont matter to me. Oh no Khobai plays a game for fun. Thats so shameful.

So thanks for proving that all the complaints here were 100% justified.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2018 - 03:43 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 03:14 AM, said:

im sorry if the truth offends you.

You'd need to be speaking truth in the first place.

You believe what you are saying is true in the face of cold, hard, fact. That dude, is delusional.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 15 February 2018 - 04:09 AM.

[Dago Red]

Zergling, on 15 February 2018 - 04:51 AM, said:

It may come as a massive shock to you, but many players that might be considered 'good', frequently don't give a damn about winning or even playing well, they are just playing for **** and giggles.

Eg, I didn't give the slightest damn about playing well last month, yet I still scored above average, and I'm far from a great player.
If I were Tier 4/5 and doing that, my stats would probably still be in the top 10% because of just how easy the opposition is at those tiers.

Exactly what about any of that post makes you think that would surprise me?

[Dago Red]

Zergling, on 15 February 2018 - 05:01 AM, said:

The fact you are using 'I don't play to win!' as an excuse for bad stats.

Really?

A: I at no point have defended my stats in any way
B: Mine are mediocre at worst. And my clan account is actually doing quite a bit better. https://leaderboard....h?u=dayglow+red
C: Every bit of that post was about calling out MischiefSC's questionable ability to understand the psychology of anyone who isn't himself.

You literally just saw what you wanted to see and ran with it like a schmuck.

[Dago Red]

Zergling, on 15 February 2018 - 05:17 AM, said:

I dunno about that, I saw a lot of passive-aggression in your post, so you are defensive about something.

Simple version I'm getting sick of crappy attitudes people throw around here that further divide an already dwindling community.

The assumption that I'm defensive of something about myself says far more about you than it does about me.

[Zergling]

Dago Red, on 15 February 2018 - 05:22 AM, said:

Simple version I'm getting sick of crappy attitudes people throw around here that further divide an already dwindling community.

The assumption that I'm defensive of something about myself says far more about you than it does about me.

Basically, you need to chill out. Stop taking things personally and getting defensive over it.

I used to care about stats a lot and tried hard to improve my performance ingame. Now I don't, no biggie, everyone plays for their own reasons.
But to deny that stats reflect player performance and knowledge? That is just denial of facts, which is why I'm arguing in this thread.

However, in the spirit of cutting down on crappy attitudes, I'll delete my previous posts directed at you.

Edited by Zergling, 15 February 2018 - 05:50 AM.

[Christophe Ivanov]

As I have said many times before, Stats are just that, someone's view about the game, not mine. I do not care for stats as it's meaningless. Why? Ya win some, ya lose some, ya have a good day and a bad day, the world will not stop when you quit playing or your favorite actor dies or whatever. It's just a GAME , nothing more, nothing less.

Step back...take a DEEP breath or two, clear your mind and be thankful you are able to play this game as it is. Yeah it can be better, we all know that and in our own way, we try to help that along. I remember the day when PONG was released...it was totally cool and we had lots of fun playing such a simple game. The key word here is to have FUN, not to be first, not to be the best, but to have fun and yeah your gonna get good or at least better than you were before.

SO like it's been said, just stop and have FUN. You just might like it.

Edited by Christophe Ivanov, 15 February 2018 - 05:58 AM.

[Dago Red]

Zergling, on 15 February 2018 - 05:37 AM, said:

That's passive-aggression again.

Basically, you need to chill out. Stop taking things personally and getting defensive over it.

I used to care about stats a lot and tried hard to improve my performance ingame. Now I don't, no biggie, everyone plays for their own reasons.
But to deny that stats reflect player performance and knowledge? That is just denial of facts, which is why I'm arguing in this thread.

Which was once again never a point I was arguing.

I was literally only replying to someone specifics very odd idea's about how other humans operate.

Because this "I used to care about stats a lot and tried hard to improve my performance in game. Now I don't, no biggie, everyone plays for their own reasons." was literally the extent of my point.

Stats 100% do reflect a persons performance and in this game performance is more tied to knowledge rather than mechanical execution as compared to almost any other shooter. You're trying to defend a position I never even assaulted.

Obviously "stats mean nothing" is a ridiculous statement but basically using them to name and shame people isn't helping anyone's case either.

If I was trying to be passive aggressive I'd have blessed somebodies heart.

Probably enough forum warrioring for now though since I'm getting dangerously close to going regular aggressive over people appearing to intentionally miss points.

Edited by Dago Red, 15 February 2018 - 05:59 AM.

[Zergling]

Dago Red, on 15 February 2018 - 05:57 AM, said:

Probably enough forum warrioring for now though since I'm getting dangerously close to going regular aggressive over people appearing to intentionally miss points.

Not intentionally, but sorry if I was antagonising you.

[Verilligo]

Christophe Ivanov, on 15 February 2018 - 05:57 AM, said:

As I have said many times before, Stats are just that, someone's view about the game, not mine. I do not care for stats as it's meaningless. Why? Ya win some, ya lose some, ya have a good day and a bad day, the world will not stop when you quit playing or your favorite actor dies or whatever. It's just a GAME , nothing more, nothing less.

Step back...take a DEEP breath or two, clear your mind and be thankful you are able to play this game as it is. Yeah it can be better, we all know that and in our own way, we try to help that along. I remember the day when PONG was released...it was totally cool and we had lots of fun playing such a simple game. The key word here is to have FUN, not to be first, not to be the best, but to have fun and yeah your gonna get good or at least better than you were before.

SO like it's been said, just stop and have FUN. You just might like it.

The assumption here seems to be that we are not having fun. That's not true. If we weren't having fun, we wouldn't be playing. However, the amount of fun a person has is not completely dependent on their own performance, as this is a team game. Personally, I tend to have more fun when I'm on the winning side, because winning is factually the goal of every game. Enjoyment is derived from what you do along the path towards completing the goal of the task. That doesn't mean I don't have fun if I lose. I just don't have as much fun in most cases. There can always be outliers, too, sometimes I have a lot of fun during a loss, sometimes I don't have much fun on a win. But the trend is better performance = better odds of winning = more fun.

If my team doesn't care about winning, I have lower odds of winning. I don't hold that against them. But if those team mates then come around and try to speak from a position of authority about how things should be adjusted despite their stats indicating they don't know how to perform well, I'm going to hold their opinion to some level of suspicion.