63 replies to this topic

[Yondu Udonta]

Gauss rifles are meant for poking, ACs are meant for sustained DPS. What's the point in reducing cooldown when it means poking out more often. Probably going to make one lose trades more often due to a smaller alpha. It can't pump out DPS like ACs too. Not even a good option for sniping since ERLL is king.

[NeoCodex]

Yondu the Ravager, on 26 March 2018 - 10:51 PM, said:

Gauss rifles are meant for poking, ACs are meant for sustained DPS. What's the point in reducing cooldown when it means poking out more often. Probably going to make one lose trades more often due to a smaller alpha. It can't pump out DPS like ACs too. Not even a good option for sniping since ERLL is king.

To the contrary... I wouldn't really call ERLL sniping, but that's just me nitpicking it. Yes, we did long range ERLL builds in our unit for FP back in the day (and it was actually fun and a viable strategy to outpoke IS at extreme ranges in the Clan vs IS scenario), but if we're talking quick play (just bear with me please) my 2 cents here is that ERLL is not really a good choice, in general. Also I just noticed, how can you call gauss a poking weapon but ER large sniping? Ever tried sniping a component with the ER large on a moving target? You'll just spread the damage anyway and paint the doll whole doll yellow. It just doesn't add up to me, I would say it's the opposite.

Gauss and PPC are kings for me - personally - mostly because of the style that fits me, and I think I just straight out perform with them much better than I would with large lasers. Not necessarily as the ultimate "sniping" weapon, even tough I like using them as such (I'll be honest - old habits), but more as an ultimate mid-to-long range all-around weapon. They're both effective, reliable PPFLD that you can use from long range up to brawling, even tough gauss today with all the nerfs it got it has become more of a midrange weapon. But you do stand a chance and pose a great threat even at brawling range with it. An ERLL build, however, does not excel in anything but extreme long range poking.

What I'm trying to say is, if you have a gauss build, you can still jump into fray and share some of your armor for your teammates when the time comes for that. But any ER large build will get completely devastated in qp as soon as any other weapon system comes into it's range, and it's also very map dependant too which is something you cannot predict.

Everybody likes to stay behind and snipe, but you cannot do that all game, as your frontline will eventually get slaughtered and you'll be the last guy standing. With gauss/ppc you can still move in closer and do effective trades at closer ranges, while shielding your team that is probably split open to components by now. Yes, I know sometimes it happens your team will evaporate before you get there but ideally if they make a hard push you should probably go with them. And ERLL build will just not do well in this scenario, That is meant for quick play, which is what most of the population plays, but I don't know what modes we're talking about here really.

So, why would we want to even use LGR / try to make advantage of its's potential higher dps with lower cds?

Well first of all the regular gauss is still a better weapon. But one of the reasons is sometimes just flavor. Some of us just want to try and make use of LGR because we like to try new things. A bit silly I know but where's the fun in always playing the same. Some mechs like the Rifleman cannot do dual gauss, but let's say you still want to do dual gauss on this mech anyway, so you try LGR, which yes, does force you to trade shots more often and you will always lose trades against a Jaeger with actual twin gauss, so what's the point, indeed?

Second reason could be range, which I would like to see further buffed. Make LGR have triple max range like the old one used to have, why do they not do that?

Another build I did and I actually think this one does better than the single gauss build is MAD-5M with dual LGR and 5 ML. For all intends and purposes, if you're hill poking, which is the ideal situation and main reason I put gauss on a MAD, it is no worse than the single standard gauss option at this scenario.

So with this 2xLGR build you do have longer range than most weapons with 810 base optimal, with twice the potential dps of a single regular gauss if you have a safe shot, and you just hill poke with it. Marauder has no other weapons at the high mounts to combine it with, so what's the point putting half of your payload into arms you cannot make use of when poking with your main weapon?

That is why I tried and switched to twin LGR. I used to run large pulses or PPCs before with 1x gauss on this but I just wasn't happy with the build. Poking with just 1 gauss made little sense, why would I use this over an EBJ that can poke me with gauss+2 large pulse or PPC. But with LGR, you actually have the dps potential of a twin standard gauss (in ideal scenario), at a bit longer range. I think LGR serves a role in this example, but I would still like to see it buffed. And EBJ is still better but you shouldn't be trading against that anyway.

Edited by NeoCodex, 27 March 2018 - 12:02 AM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

Yosharian, on 26 March 2018 - 09:52 PM, said:

Every time you fire a gauss rifle, you have to do the following:

1) Move into position where you can fire
2) Spot a target
3) Lead the shot correctly if using projectiles (yes Light Gauss is fast, no that doesn't mean you can get away without leading)
4) Charge up the shot
5) Release the shot
6) Avoid incoming fire (twist/retreat behind cover) OR continue firing.

You have to fire twice just to achieve the same damage as a standard gauss rifle.

That means you have to lead twice, charge up twice, release twice.

The damage is just too low to justify it right now. Even if you get to sit there firing constantly at an enemy, you still have to put in twice as much work just to do the same damage as a standard gauss.

If you compare to regular Gauss you have to compare dual LGR to single GR. Many IS mechs are limited by slots when fitted with LE or XL but have the tonnage to take the compact LGR twice. So, for 7 tons more you get 1 point of damage per shot, and fire rate close to AC10. The charge time is shorter than GR and you can hold it longer. This makes 2LGR more useful in a brawl where you shoot on the move and switch targets fast.

I played for two evenings now with 2LGR on my cyclops and catapult K2. It works better than I expected and I am relevant from 1000 meters to a brawl. While the weight limits my choice of secondary weapons, the 0 heat of 2LGR allow me to fire lasers/mrm without limits, and with no heat sinks in the build (offsetting some lost tons).
This far from amazing, but it works. 2LGR is viable mainly for mechs that do not have another "ideal" build and have to live with compromises.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

The best use of LGRs is against light mechs. Dual LGR can be absolutely devastating to lights and with the quick reload time you get twice as many chances to hit moving targets. If LGR get buffed any more, they will be OP in this role.

Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 27 March 2018 - 12:43 AM.

[NeoCodex]

ShiverMeRivets, on 27 March 2018 - 12:29 AM, said:

If you compare to regular Gauss you have to compare dual LGR to single GR. Many IS mechs are limited by slots when fitted with LE or XL but have the tonnage to take the compact LGR twice. So, for 7 tons more you get 1 point of damage per shot, and fire rate close to AC10. The charge time is shorter than GR and you can hold it longer. This makes 2LGR more useful in a brawl where you shoot on the move and switch targets fast.

I played for two evenings now with 2LGR on my cyclops and catapult K2. It works better than I expected and I am relevant from 1000 meters to a brawl. While the weight limits my choice of secondary weapons, the 0 heat of 2LGR allow me to fire lasers/mrm without limits, and with no heat sinks in the build (offsetting some lost tons).
This far from amazing, but it works. 2LGR is viable mainly for mechs that do not have another "ideal" build and have to live with compromises.

This is what I was saying too. For example a Marauder cannot perform optimally with a single gauss build, if you want to make use of it's shoulder mounted poke tool it is actually better to make it a 2LGR for various reasons a case I made in the post above. If I look at a mech like Rifleman however, I would probably do a classic 1Gauss+laser vomit on it because all weapons converge from the same height, unlike on the MDR.

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 27 March 2018 - 12:42 AM, said:

The best use of LGRs is against light mechs. Dual LGR can be absolutely devastating to lights and with the quick reload time you get twice as many chances to hit moving targets. If LGR get buffed any more, they will be OP in this role.

I'd still like to see a range increase or something. It won't affect the lights with this buff. It's still too niche in it's current state. Give it a bit more range, and it becomes more interesting for other mechs and builds other than the rare niche cases it currently has where it's a sidegrade at best.

Edited by NeoCodex, 27 March 2018 - 12:51 AM.

[PocketYoda]

Damage or needs to go up or they aren't up to spec with everything else speed range wont help them.. Or lower weight..

[Sjorpha]

I like it on the TDR-5S with 3LL for corner poking, and on the WHR-BW with ERLL for synced up optimal ranges thanks to energy range quirk.

It also matches up perfectly with medpulse cooldown now so I've tried 2+4 medpulse on some mechs and it's ok too.

Still a little too weak, I don't think it needs very much to get good though, and contrary to most people I think the cooldown buff was a quite significant improvement. Damage to 9 and it'll be there IMO.

[The6thMessenger]

Guile Votoms, on 26 March 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

PGI obviously doesn't understand the purpose of gauss rifles.
Lowering cooldown doesn't help this weapon at all since it increases facetime.

Just leave the cooldown the same as the other gauss rifles and increase the damage to 10.
That would give Heavies and Mediums (especially the Rifleman and Uziel) a chance to shine as a sniper.

I'm pretty sure that it would still be terrible with 10 damage if it's CD is at 5.00s, cause not enough DPS to compansate. At this point it could literally have both low cooldown and 10 damage for it to be worth to bring.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 March 2018 - 03:28 AM.

[R Valentine]

It's still worthless. People are just trying it out to verify that fact. It doesn't matter how fast you make things cycle in the laser vomit meta. You'll still only do 16 damage to that Hellbringer before he vomits 70+ onto you and retreats to cover while you guns are still on CD. Even if they weren't, charge up is a bummer.

[Yondu Udonta]

NeoCodex, on 26 March 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

To the contrary... I wouldn't really call ERLL sniping, but that's just me nitpicking it. Yes, we did long range ERLL builds in our unit for FP back in the day (and it was actually fun and a viable strategy to outpoke IS at extreme ranges in the Clan vs IS scenario), but if we're talking quick play (just bear with me please) my 2 cents here is that ERLL is not really a good choice, in general. Also I just noticed, how can you call gauss a poking weapon but ER large sniping? Ever tried sniping a component with the ER large on a moving target? You'll just spread the damage anyway and paint the doll whole doll yellow. It just doesn't add up to me, I would say it's the opposite.

My bad, sniping and poking in my dictionary is somewhat interchangable. Sniping is firing at long range, poking is dumping an alpha before heading back to cover. So using ERLL constitutes of both long range and dumping alpha before hiding. Imo Gauss is more of a poking weapon because of its long cooldown and I would prefer to use ERLLs over Gauss if I want to fight a long-ranged battle.

[Yosharian]

ShiverMeRivets, on 27 March 2018 - 12:29 AM, said:

If you compare to regular Gauss you have to compare dual LGR to single GR. Many IS mechs are limited by slots when fitted with LE or XL but have the tonnage to take the compact LGR twice. So, for 7 tons more you get 1 point of damage per shot, and fire rate close to AC10. The charge time is shorter than GR and you can hold it longer. This makes 2LGR more useful in a brawl where you shoot on the move and switch targets fast.

I played for two evenings now with 2LGR on my cyclops and catapult K2. It works better than I expected and I am relevant from 1000 meters to a brawl. While the weight limits my choice of secondary weapons, the 0 heat of 2LGR allow me to fire lasers/mrm without limits, and with no heat sinks in the build (offsetting some lost tons).
This far from amazing, but it works. 2LGR is viable mainly for mechs that do not have another "ideal" build and have to live with compromises.

>If you compare to regular Gauss you have to compare dual LGR to single GR

I don't have to do anything of the sort.

Gauss Rifle: 7 slots, 15 tons
Light Gauss Rifle: 5 slots, 12 tons
2x LGR: 10 slots, 24 tons

Dual LGR takes up 3 more slots and 9 more tons than a single Gauss Rifle.

Just because some assaults can fit dual LGR in the same space they can carry a single GR doesn't mean the two are comparable; it only means they are comparable on that specific mech.

24 tons to do 16 damage with charge-up is not an effective use of tonnage in my opinion, even if it is relatively heat-free.

If you read my post carefully you'll see I'm not strictly comparing the standard Gauss to the LGR as if they were competing directly. Rather what I'm saying is that when used in combat, the LGR isn't worth its tonnage, whereas the standard Gauss is, and analyzing why that is the case requires the comparison.

Edited by Yosharian, 27 March 2018 - 06:55 PM.

[Yosharian]

LGR vs 2xAC2

1 ballistic slot vs 2 ballistic slots
5 crit slots vs 2 crit slots
12 tons vs 12 tons
8 damage vs 4 damage
0.55 heat vs 1 heat
2.5 DPS vs 5.56 DPS (LGR DPS corrected to include charge time)
0.21 HPS vs 1.38 HPS

Speed 2000 vs Speed 2000
Range 810 vs 720

62 seconds of firing time per ton vs 54 seconds of firing time per ton

----

These two weapons are almost identical in the way they perform, they're both 2000 speed very long range weapons designed to deal decent DPS over time.

The AC2 is just about decent right now (the Ultra is hot garbage, don't use it).

The LGR deals less than HALF the DPS of an identical weapon system matched to its tonnage, despite having a much higher skill requirement and using up more critical space.

The only advantage the LGR brings is the lower heat (hardly meaningful considering the AC2's already fairly low heat output) and the fact it uses up one ballistic slot vs two.

This is after several buffs in an attempt to make the LGR more of a DPS weapon.

It's still only half the DPS of the AC2, effectively.

If this doesn't convince you that the LGR is utter trash then I question your understanding of the math.

Edited by Yosharian, 27 March 2018 - 08:32 PM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

I understand the math. The LGR cycle time is between a pure alpha and a pure dps weapon, much like the ac10. Ac2 with a cycle time of about 0.5 s with tweaks, is pure dps - you do not peak or torso twist between shots. GR has a cycle time of about 5 s, so it is not about dps at all. The AC10/LGR weapons are slow enough for torso twisting between shots without losing much dps, so you are trying to max dps while maintaining a descent damage per shot. They are mid-way compromises. Min/max'ing does not favor utility over specialization. Fun does (while still being effective).

I never said LGR are totally awesome.

[Gaussfather]

I have only managed 2 LGR builds that kinda work.... having one LGR just doesn't do enough damage to stop anything.

I say kinda work because I would still go with normal Gauss rifle if the spacing or tonnage would allow it...

Dual LGR Works OK on a Marauder due to the high mounts and you have some decent speed to maneuver and armor to take those ERL hits from counter snipers/pokers.

Recently I've tried a new build that is kind of fun... for QP I try to always have something long-range and something short-range to deal with that mech that rushes you.

So Victor 9A1, dual LGR in torso, UAC20 & 3ERSMLs in the arms. 270LE... not quick but you can give long-range support and mix it up when you need to.

You can snipe all day but when you need to you can wreck something with the UAC20. Fun but not devastating like 4AC5s can be. Requires a different game play and if I could somehow fit normal Gauss onto the thing it would be a killing machine.

If LGR could do 9 or 10 damage then it would be much more useful as a stand-alone or dual weapon. The shorter cool down and range benefit isn't that useful (most engagements are within 1000m) due to the firing mechanic and typical, shoot, hide, shoot, hide, sniping style Gauss rifles lend themselves to.

Edited by Gaussfather, 28 March 2018 - 07:02 AM.

[Sorbic]

I never stopped seeing LGR and think they are in a decent spot right now. Unlike the AC2 which people just tend to spread damage from afar the LGR is more about picking apart single components which it's currently capable of.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Sorbic, on 28 March 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

I never stopped seeing LGR and think they are in a decent spot right now. Unlike the AC2 which people just tend to spread damage from afar the LGR is more about picking apart single components which it's currently capable of.

Picking them apart, 8 damage at a time?

[ShiverMeRivets]

LT. HARDCASE, on 28 March 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

Picking them apart, 8 damage at a time?

Well, AC10 takes them apart 10 damage at a time, at about the same effective fire rate, so LGR is -20% damage. In return the range and ballistics are much better, better crits, and takes less space (if you are limited by critical slots). I tried dual AC10 builds and then replaced them by dual LGRs and they felt about the same. Charge up time on LGR is short enough and you can hold it long enough that it is a non issue. I struggle with the charging times of the regular GR and often mess up my shots.

A large laser takes them apart 9 damage at a time, with a longer cycle time, much longer time-on-target, and a hell of a lot more heat. Lasers also draw a big arrow saying "I am right here" while a gauss slug is invisible in flight. LL does weight 7 tons less and takes no ammo, but you usually have to add a couple of heat sinks instead. I'll take LGR over a LL any day unless I have the hard points and cooling to take 2.

Edited by ShiverMeRivets, 29 March 2018 - 07:01 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mole, on 09 February 2018 - 10:28 PM, said:

Hey guys. So I know the LGR got its cooldown significantly reduced with the last patch. Still though, 8 damage for 12 tons not including ammo as well as a chargeup mechanic still seemed like a horrible deal. I thought they surely wouldn't see any use still. But the last couple of days that I've been playing I've seen a few people actually using the weapons. I remember fighting a Warhammer today that was doing dual LGR, and I had a Jagermech on my team yesterday that was running dual LGR. Did the cooldown buff actually make them useful? I can't remember the last time I saw a LGR on a 'mech after the first couple of days of Civil War tech, and then suddenly in a span of two days I have seen them multiple times.

TL;DR: Been seeing some people using Light Gauss Rifles recently. Do they no longer suck?

The reason the Light Gauss Rifle has a bad reputation is because it constantly gets compared to the standard Gauss Rifle. I mean if you sit those two side by side it looks like the standard Gauss Rifle totally outclasses the Light Gauss Rifle. However people are comparing it against the wrong weapon. Instead they need to be looking at it as a direct replacement for the AC/10, especially now that they have reduced the cooldown.

If you compare the LGR to the AC/10, they are the same weight right down to the ammo for ton and use the exact same slots. The AC/10 does 2 more points of damage but unlike the AC/10 the Light Gauss Rifle has nearly zero impact on heat which means you can generally remove a few heat sinks to devote to more firepower, engine size, etc. Also the LGR has a much higher velocity slug which makes it much easier to hit with than the AC/10. Finally because of reduction in weight and slot requirement, the LGR will fit in builds that can't accommodate a full size standard Gauss Rifle.

So honestly, there are a ton of advantages to using the LGR, at least as long as your looking at it as an optional replacement in applications where you would normally select the AC/10. They are absolute not garbage or bad in any way.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 29 March 2018 - 07:32 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

AC/10 is 7 slots, reasonable velocity for its range (1100 m/s), and has 4.44 DPS.

LGauss is 5 slots, has velocity just a touch low for its range, and only offers 2.58 DPS.

There are no builds that can make good use of LGauss that can't make better use of standard Gauss or a different gun altogether.

[Humpday]

I put them on my Rifleman hero...i hate the rifleman, i feel like its paper and can't output damage, but anyway, its pretty funny to use them.

They cycle super fast, so you kinda just spam Lgauss, and people go running because they hear the hit off gauss, but can't tell its light gauss.

Other than being a troll weapon, I dont' see much use for them. Too heavy for what they do, and I feel like you have to work your butt off to score decently and kill stuff, its kinda annoying. It usually leads me to getting too close to the fight, which in the rifleman, is death.