251 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

im fine with the x3 combo on the IS side. because of how much tonnage it takes up and how bad ISDHS are.

the problem is the x3 combo on the clan side. it does 45 damage and takes up considerably less tonnage than IS.

Nah it should be both. The Timber Wolf isn't going to be dominating with 2 ER PPC Gauss even if it got its agility back. It can't poptart very well.

[UnofficialOperator]

Kubernetes, on 11 February 2018 - 06:34 PM, said:

Good god yes bring it back. Aren’t you all sick of the bland laser vomit meta? Everything gets nerfed to oblivion so that’s all we have left. Now you all want to nerf lasers too. My solution is to roll back all the nerfs. Make it all viable and deadly.

The GH and constant nerfing are stupid. Look at the pitiful state of the game now, with half the mechs virtually unplayable and half the weapons utter garbage. Know how we got here? Because the legions of moron spuds constantly calling to nerf anything that works. PGI should release a mod for all you guys: every weapon does 1 dmg, cone of fire RNG, and has a 10 second cooldown. Your perfect “thinking man’s shooter” with incredible TTK, you guys would love it.

And this is exactly why I am saying that every tier should have their own balancing schemes rather than 1 size fits all.

Look at LRMs as an example. Bads cry about it in T5 because

1. They do not have the knowledge to mitigate it
2. They do not have the skill points or resources to mitigate it due to just entering the game

Look at LRMs in T1. Everyone laughs at it because almost everyone

1. either has the Skill points or resources to mitigate it
2. have the map knowledge to dodge it

Therefore just set it so that (and this is just a stupid example, just insert your own values or weapon examples) in lower tier matches, players get damage reduction and in higher tier matches, players get x2 damage

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 11 February 2018 - 06:58 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Nah it should be both. The Timber Wolf isn't going to be dominating with 2 ER PPC Gauss even if it got its agility back. It can't poptart very well.

its not the timber wolf people are worried about though.

the timber wolf is a garbage mech because of its oversized engine, nerfed agility, and negative quirks

if you give clans x3 PPC/Gauss its not the timber wolf thats going to be wrecking face.


the problem is specifically clan gauss. it weighs 3 tons less than IS gauss. so a pair of clan gauss is a full 6 tons lighter than a pair of IS gauss rifles.

the only way I could get behind x3 PPC/Gauss for clans is if clan gauss is somehow nerfed.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 07:02 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

Its not the timber wolf people are worried about.

the timber wolf is a garbage mech because of its oversized engine and nerfed agility and negative quirks

What mech then? The Night Gyr?

[Sjorpha]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

What do you consider the problem?

The poptarting (i.e the ability to fire weapons while jumping)?

Or the 40+5 PPFLD?

Would you be okay with x3 Gauss/PPC if you couldnt fire heavy weapons while jumping? For example if gauss was disabled while jumping (you could still fire PPCs while jumping though)

Clearly it isn't the size of alphas that is problematic, it's easy to make 40+ ppfld loadouts already. King crab with 2AC10+2HPPC for example is 50ppfld, Victor poptart AC10+2HPPC 40alpha, still bad builds despite high PPFLD alphas with ok ranges and velocities. Close range PPFLD is easy to do with AC20+SNPPC and can poptart on MAD-BH etc. These builds are still bad because they don't have the build efficiency and heat efficiency that clan dual gauss + ppc had.

The PPFLD boogieman isn't and never was the issue, the potenital issue is the same that gaussvomit alphas have, the no heat gauss synergizing with the high heat lasers/ppcs and being light enough on the clan side to result in powerful builds on jumping heavies.

So basically, high PPFLD builds exist already but aren't good. PPFLD isn't the issue.

I'm not actually convinced that allowing gauss/ppc would be bad, but it's a risk because of the potentially oppressive builds and it's a direct buff to the strongest faction, and it lock in the agility nerfs to night gyr and kodiak. I think those are the rational arguments against it as opposed to the PPFLD boogieman arguments. There are also good arguments in favor of it, for example that gaussvomit needs a better midrange counterplay option.

Edited by Sjorpha, 11 February 2018 - 07:02 PM.

[Khobai]

so if you couldnt fire gauss while jumpjetting would that fix the problem?

you could fully reinstate x3 gauss/ppc for both IS and clans

but the whole concern of poptarting with gauss/ppc would be a non-issue because gauss couldnt be fired while jumping

PPCs would of course still be able to fire while jumping, so that wouldnt change. gauss/ppc builds could still poptart with their ppcs, but not fire the gauss. and the gauss could only be used on the ground.

theoretically you could even remove chargeup on gauss then. since the main reason for adding chargeup was to curb poptarting.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 07:09 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 07:04 PM, said:

so if you couldnt fire gauss while jumpjetting would that fix the problem?

you could fully reinstate x3 gauss/ppc for both IS and clans

but the whole concern of poptarting with gauss/ppc would be a non-issue because gauss couldnt be fired while jumping

PPCs would of course still be able to fire while jumping, so that wouldnt change

theoretically you could even remove chargeup on gauss then. since the only reason for adding chargeup was to curb poptarting.

One argument though is that before the ghost heat, 2 ER PPC SMN was already a better poptart than the Night Gyr, so what issue is this fixing?

[Khobai]

Quote

One argument though is that before the ghost heat, 2 ER PPC SMN was already a better poptart than the Night Gyr, so what issue is this fixing?

the issue it fixes is unnerfing the night gyrs agility by finding a compromise

we cant unnerf the night gyrs agility and also allow x3 gauss/ppc

but you could unnerf the night gyrs agility, and still allow x3 gauss/ppc, if you also added the restriction that you cant fire gauss while jumping.

im just trying to find a compromise where people can have their cake and eat it too


pros: night gyr agility gets unnerfed, night gyr can fire x3 gauss/ppc while on the ground
cons: can only poptart with ppcs, cant use gauss while jumping

seems fair to me

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 07:19 PM.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

One argument though is that before the ghost heat, 2 ER PPC SMN was already a better poptart than the Night Gyr, so what issue is this fixing?

The Thor poptart isn't nearly as oppressive as the Nite Gear used to be because of having less damage, even if it can make better application of that damage via mobility. It adds up damage over the course of the match rather than dealing it in large spikes, and this in turn gives a bigger window for the red team to take it down.

The recent charity stream thing that was posted on the forum showed a good example of this with the 1v1 mirror match duels. The ERPPC Thor duels were very protracted while the Orion IIC brawler fight was over in only a fraction of the time.

Edited by FupDup, 11 February 2018 - 07:25 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 11 February 2018 - 07:13 PM, said:

The Thor poptart isn't nearly as oppressive as the Nite Gear because of having less damage, even if it can make better application of that damage via mobility. It adds up damage over the course of the match rather than dealing it in large spikes, and this in turn gives a bigger window for the red team to take it down.

I'm sorry I don't think that is a good rationale to leave it objectively superior. The Night Gyr poptarting in a public match gets frustrating quickly because it can't respond to team movements very well. So yeah, it might get some good trades early on, but since this game dissolves into a nascar-fest 90% of the time it rarely gets a chance to "stand and deliver" or I guess "stand still jumping and delivering" in this case. Or at least, that is what has been limiting my damage output today in the Night Gyr, not the ghost heat on dual gauss-ER PPC.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 07:04 PM, said:

so if you couldnt fire gauss while jumpjetting would that fix the problem?

you could fully reinstate x3 gauss/ppc for both IS and clans

but the whole concern of poptarting with gauss/ppc would be a non-issue because gauss couldnt be fired while jumping

PPCs would of course still be able to fire while jumping, so that wouldnt change. gauss/ppc builds could still poptart with their ppcs, but not fire the gauss. and the gauss could only be used on the ground.

theoretically you could even remove chargeup on gauss then. since the main reason for adding chargeup was to curb poptarting.

I think murm 80 poptart IV-4's need to not be able to pop up and fire 80 points of damage while off the ground. Khobai, I know I have your support because as you have stated many...many times, That any form of poptarting is da devil.

[Khobai]

Quote

I think murm 80 poptart IV-4's need to not be able to pop up and fire 80 points of damage while off the ground. Khobai, I know I have your support because as you have stated many...many times, That any form of poptarting is da devil.

ive never once stated that poptarting was the devil lol

poptarting is perfectly fine as long as its not combined with high damage PPFLD alphas

which my compromise fixes: it gives everyone something they want.

the people who want x3 Gauss/PPC get it, but they cant poptart with gauss, only with PPCs

the people who dont want 45 damage poptarting back, dont have to worry about it, because you cant poptart with gauss anymore. and night gyr and friends get their agility back

and gauss chargeup could theoretically be removed since you cant poptart with gauss anymore

so its like partial win, partial win, huge win for everyone

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 07:31 PM.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 February 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

I'm sorry I don't think that is a good rationale to leave it objectively superior. The Night Gyr poptarting in a public match gets frustrating quickly because it can't respond to team movements very well. So yeah, it might get some good trades early on, but since this game dissolves into a nascar-fest 90% of the time it rarely gets a chance to "stand and deliver" or I guess "stand still jumping and delivering" in this case. Or at least, that is what has been limiting my damage output today in the Night Gyr, not the ghost heat on dual gauss-ER PPC.

...Which is why I think the Nite Gear could stand to have its agility partially or fully restored to its old levels.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 07:23 PM, said:

ive never once stated that poptarting was the devil lol

poptarting is perfectly fine as long as its not combined with high damage PPFLD alphas

which my compromise fixes: it gives everyone something they want.

So its ok to jump up at 250 meters and do 80 damage.......But its not ok to jump up at 500 meters and do 40. okay.....

[Khobai]

Quote

So its ok to jump up at 250 meters and do 80 damage.......But its not ok to jump up at 500 meters and do 40. okay.....

its not PPFLD. its spread damage. spread damage is garbage.

whats going to kill a mech faster? repeatedly taking 40 damage to the same location?

or repeatedly taking like 80 damage spread out in a bunch of different locations? probably not even 80 damage because its likely some of the missiles will miss with the awful spread on MRMs.

so yeah the PPFLD is obviously way deadlier. you will die way faster to the 40 PPFLD than you will to the MRMs.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 07:30 PM.

[Deathlike]

UnofficialOperator, on 11 February 2018 - 06:53 PM, said:

Dude, that is why a redo of PSR/Tier/MM is needed and what I already stated. And everyone gets to be happy playing at the tier that they are most suited for. Those that can achieve better scores in this "minigame" will move up to the tougher tiers.

What Tier 4 comp play are you talking about???? You've lost me here.

Redoing the system will never change the population problem.

Also, if we were to apply your silly Tier system, having an account in Tier 4 for alts in comp play would actually be a problem. Pay attention. You can rename your accounts as needed (you'd just be paying in MC) and if said rules applied to a private match, you can see outcomes dictated because of said behavior (tanking would be boring in the MM, but who cares until you use said benefit in a real match)

Edited by Deathlike, 11 February 2018 - 07:30 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 07:27 PM, said:

its not PPFLD. its spread damage. spread damage is garbage.

Depends on how much of it you have and other factors like heat.

In my experiences MRM splatting is pretty nice, even on complete garbage mechs like the loyalty Wolverine. Super duper uber meta no, but quite viable and effective yes.

Edited by FupDup, 11 February 2018 - 07:28 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 11 February 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

...Which is why I think the Nite Gear could stand to have its agility partially or fully restored to its old levels.

I'd rather have 3 combos of PPC Gauss back...

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 February 2018 - 07:29 PM, said:

I'd rather have 3 combos of PPC Gauss back...

I'd rather have the tri-PPC+Gauss on the Highlander to be viable again that to hug 2 CERPPC + Gauss or 1 CERPPC + 2 Gauss on any Clan mech at this point. The power creep for Clams don't need to be super secured due to inferior IS tech.

[Gas Guzzler]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 07:32 PM, said:

I'd rather have the tri-PPC+Gauss on the Highlander to be viable again that to hug 2 CERPPC + Gauss or 1 CERPPC + 2 Gauss on any Clan mech at this point. The power creep for Clams don't need to be super secured due to inferior IS tech.

Give Clans 3 and IS 4 then.