251 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Joke's on you, PGI hinted that they may look into improving jump jets in the recent podcast.

Sounds like theyre not even considering giving you x3 PPC/Gauss though

[sycocys]

Khobai, on 13 February 2018 - 02:02 AM, said:

Sounds like theyre not even considering giving you x3 PPC/Gauss though

ERLL poptarting instead.

Most of these build styles (ppc + guass included) would be just fine though it it required that you focus them in the skill node tree to make them work and it had an offsetting cost on your loadout.

[Johnathan Tanner]

sycocys, on 13 February 2018 - 02:08 AM, said:

ERLL poptarting instead.

Lol wut

[N Y G E N]

Khobai, on 12 February 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

most fighting in battletech took place at less than half the range it does in MWO.

Yeah, but who cares? This is a first person shooter - computer game, right? If people can't get away from the wrong physics of a cheap space opera and slow boring table top game, all balance is for the birds!

Khobai, on 12 February 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

and people dont hate all long range in MWO. they mostly just hate long range PPFLD from x3-x4 Gauss/PPC. because its not fun getting hit by 40-50 damage from halfway across the map that you cant torso twist to spread around. And to a lesser extent people hate the ERLL because of its unnecessarily obscene range.

Exactly this! Because not even Natasha Kerensky could hit with PPC's at 1000m. And that's the reason people don't like it, because they wanna have the feeling to be like one of these heros of the cheap space opera, to feel the heat, to see "molten metal flowing from a hit with my medium pulse laser after my LBX sliced pieces of armor from his left leg to his right shoulder."
In the world of being like Grayson Carlyle, Aidan Pryde, in the world of surats, Zellbriggen and dezgras, there is no place for being shot at 1k+.
People don't like it because by them self they can't hit anything at this ranges while others can. People don't like it because their Mech movement is poor and they expose them selfes. People don't care about getting shot with a 60+ Damage alpha at 400m, because that's the range they can hit stuff and shoot back. A lot people who play MWO are too bad for a FPS, but they play it because of the books they read or the tabletop they played. If you tell em to use a PepGauss-Jumper, they would brake their fingers and won't hit a barn. That's the truth and that's why people don't like it. Anybody who says something different is simply wrong.

[Dago Red]

Nygen, on 13 February 2018 - 05:39 AM, said:

Yeah, but who cares? This is a first person shooter - computer game, right? If people can't get away from the wrong physics of a cheap space opera and slow boring table top game, all balance is for the birds!



Exactly this! Because not even Natasha Kerensky could hit with PPC's at 1000m. And that's the reason people don't like it, because they wanna have the feeling to be like one of these heros of the cheap space opera, to feel the heat, to see "molten metal flowing from a hit with my medium pulse laser after my LBX sliced pieces of armor from his left leg to his right shoulder."
In the world of being like Grayson Carlyle, Aidan Pryde, in the world of surats, Zellbriggen and dezgras, there is no place for being shot at 1k+.
People don't like it because by them self they can't hit anything at this ranges while others can. People don't like it because their Mech movement is poor and they expose them selfes. People don't care about getting shot with a 60+ Damage alpha at 400m, because that's the range they can hit stuff and shoot back. A lot people who play MWO are too bad for a FPS, but they play it because of the books they read or the tabletop they played. If you tell em to use a PepGauss-Jumper, they would brake their fingers and won't hit a barn. That's the truth and that's why people don't like it. Anybody who says something different is simply wrong.

If you honestly feel that way then why are you even playing this game specifically and advocating for play that shits up the feel of the franchise? If you don't want the cheap space opera then piss off to a series that wasn't built on those bones.

Being basically competent at hitting things in what has to be the slowest moving multiplayer FPS I've ever played and feeling that what you seem to want is wrong for this series are not mutually exclusive things.

You stating that the only reason a person could want to disagree with you is because they're bad is just as ****** and wrong as the people who feel that every comp or unit player is trying to keep them personally down.


I'd argue later map design and allowing voting rather than the weapons themselves is the real issue though. If you can guarantee playing the majority of your games on cold maps with open sight lines that make brawlers have a hard time closing without being shot to pieces on the way in then it's going to set what you bring the majority of the time. It'd be a different thing entirely if ever sniper or mid range long cooldown poker had a 50/50 shot of ending up on a map built like mining collective.

[Damnedtroll]

Dago Red, on 13 February 2018 - 06:06 AM, said:

I'd argue later map design and allowing voting rather than the weapons themselves is the real issue though. If you can guarantee playing the majority of your games on cold maps with open sight lines that make brawlers have a hard time closing without being shot to pieces on the way in then it's going to set what you bring the majority of the time. It'd be a different thing entirely if ever sniper or mid range long cooldown poker had a 50/50 shot of ending up on a map built like mining collective.

That's so true, voting will reduce the amount of some ridiculous boating and bring more mixed build. There will be always a metabuild but no voting would help a lot in seeing more diverse payload.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 13 February 2018 - 02:02 AM, said:

Sounds like theyre not even considering giving you x3 PPC/Gauss though

For the record, I'm more or less ambivalent on that.

I mean, I would rather have 3xPPC/Gauss than not, but it doesn't shatter my hopes and dreams.

[Cnaiur]

At first I liked the idea of unlinking PPC/gauss GH, but I don't think I can support it unless the MM is tightened up considerably. Last night on a whim I hopped onto my T4 alt account (I'd been drinking), slapped a couple PPCs on a half skilled Huntsman, and went full pop tart against the seals. It was awful. For them I mean. That mech was like unto a god and they had absolutely no counters to it. Finished the match with just under 1k damage, 4 solo kills, and a match score over 700. And I'm nothing special as a player, competent at best.

A game where that kind of gameplay can be unleashed against unskilled players only with much more PPFLD is going to be a disaster for retention and new player experience (as if the new player experience isn't bad enough).

[Mystere]

tker 669, on 12 February 2018 - 10:19 PM, said:

Isn't this the ppc/gauss thread?

Ah, but justifying the LB-10X changes should be easier than justifying the return of the allegedly Gauss-PPC terror of the battlefield. That should, hopefully, give me an initial insight on their thought processes. And then that is when my

Mystere, on 12 February 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

And that's just for starters.

bit comes in.

[sycocys]

Johnathan Tanner, on 13 February 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

Lol wut

ERLL won't be an issue to use if they do like Paul was suggesting and increase the initial velocity back up - then even if they don't reduce screen shake ERLL and LPL are going to be the next in line go-to's regardless of the beam duration.

[Stinger554]

sycocys, on 13 February 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

ERLL won't be an issue to use if they do like Paul was suggesting and increase the initial velocity back up - then even if they don't reduce screen shake ERLL and LPL are going to be the next in line go-to's regardless of the beam duration.

Err ERLL relatively long beam duration is why they are not used to poptart.....

LPL might be used for it but they still have too long of a duration for effective poptarting IMO.

Hey if they do buff JJs we might see A/C 5 + PPC poptarting again, since you know gauss+PPC poptarting isn't really possible anymore.

[blood4blood]

I voted For.

Truth is, I'd go further and eliminate all ghost heat as well as the charge-up mechanic, and allow people to run whatever they want that fits on their mech without any artificial mechanics to slow down game play. I freely admit to being a MW4 player, to preferring MW4, and to be perfectly happy playing jump snipers at 800m+. I'm older now and need reading glasses, so if the changes I'd prefer were made, lots of younger faster players would benefit more than me, but honestly, I feel the relatively long TTK and slower game play that emphasizes team focus far more than individual skill holds MWO back from attracting a lot of the action-junky gamer types that make so many FPS titles so successful.

[FupDup]

blood4blood, on 13 February 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

I voted For.

Truth is, I'd go further and eliminate all ghost heat as well as the charge-up mechanic, and allow people to run whatever they want that fits on their mech without any artificial mechanics to slow down game play. I freely admit to being a MW4 player, to preferring MW4, and to be perfectly happy playing jump snipers at 800m+. I'm older now and need reading glasses, so if the changes I'd prefer were made, lots of younger faster players would benefit more than me, but honestly, I feel the relatively long TTK and slower game play that emphasizes team focus far more than individual skill holds MWO back from attracting a lot of the action-junky gamer types that make so many FPS titles so successful.

Honestly I don't really feel like we're missing out on much by not attracting those people. If anything it's a net gain, just look at the extreme toxicity in games like Overwatch.

[Jarl Dane]

FupDup, on 13 February 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

Honestly I don't really feel like we're missing out on much by not attracting those people. If anything it's a net gain, just look at the extreme toxicity in games like Overwatch.

*Wades through the Brown Sea and Reddit trying to WILL the community to not tear itself apart and work together*

=)

[FunkyT]

My 2 Cents on the topic, as someone who has mostly ever played Solo QP.

I am strictly AGAINST the return of Gauss/PPC.

My reasoning:
The most subjective one first: When Gauss/PPC was running rampant, the game was the least fun it has ever been for me. It is simply not fun the be pinpoint picked apart from right outside your nominal fighting distance, with the shooter already being back to cover before the hitsparks have even settled.

Now the (probably) more objective part:
Gauss/PPC, especially when paired with jumpjets, requires extremely short exposure to the enemy. The (lovingly called) poptart will start the jump, pre-load his gauss('), release all fire shortly after the apex of the jump and drop back into cover by the time the target is hit and can react. When well executed, there is next to no counterplay to a Gauss/PPC jumpmech. And gameplay without counterplay is simply not fun. The only way to properly react to that would be to do the exact same thing. Somewhat forcing everyone to play the same few mechs with the always same build also doesn't sound very fun in a game, that offers tons of variety.

Yes, the sheer alpha power auf Gauss/Laservomit may be higher, but:
Lasers have duration. That's really the big thing, because the build suddenly has obvious "downsides" and actual opportunities for counterplay.
Lasers having duration means that you can fire your Gauss safely from cover, but will need sustained visual contact to make use of your lasers. Not only will you need to expose before firing all your weapons, making yourself seen and a target to the enemy. You will also need to keep your fairly long-burning C-Lasers on target for their entire duration. The target and the entire enemy team will likely see you doing that and will be able to easily retaliate, something that really doesn't happen with Gauss/PPC (again, if executed well).
Lasers having duration also means that you don't have your entire alpha strike as pinpoint damage. The target will twist and turn mid-volley, spreading the damage of the lasers around and therefore make at least some use of it's undamaged armor. Again, not really possible when you can't see the shooter, nor the shots coming your way.

Apart from that, only really Caln mechs can do the whole Gauss/PPC meta anyway. At least I can't recall having ever seen something comparable coming from an IS mech. Enforcing a meta which (kind of) excludes half of your games actual content sounds like a bad idea to me.

Also, aren't people always complaining about people being too timid and only sticking to cover? Don't think that will really change if we bring back a meta that encourages hiding and poptarting.


So, there's that.
I just hope Gauss/PPC stays away.
that's all.

[Metus regem]

Mech The Dane, on 13 February 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

*Wades through the Brown Sea and Reddit trying to WILL the community to not tear itself apart and work together*

=)

Good luck....

I may not always agree with more twitch skill / comp players as I seem to be one of the few Lore guys left it seems... I'd just like PGI to be playing the same version of MWO the rest of us are...

I mean I've given up on them doing the LB/s right (either as Flak rounds or dual ammo modes) or even sharing where they pull their magic data from....

That said, it was interesting to see that a lot of the data you had put together (with the assistance of others) looks a lot like my own notes that I've been keeping since 2014/15... Ahh well here's hoping to the next era jump / equipment upgrade and seeing how the Frankincode holds up.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 13 February 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

Honestly I don't really feel like we're missing out on much by not attracting those people. If anything it's a net gain, just look at the extreme toxicity in games like Overwatch.

well there are people here that wanna turn this game into call of duty with mechs. they want to keep ttk low, they want higher skill ceiling, and they want 360 poptart skillshots to be a thing.

like ive always said, MWO should not just be another FPS. it should be a combination FPS/mechsim. And because of the sim aspect it means that the overall pacing of the game needs to be slower than your typical FPS.

Quote

I'd just like PGI to be playing the same version of MWO the rest of us are...

theyre not.

Players: We want improvements for quickplay/factionplay. more maps and fixed gamemodes. and better balance for the game.

PGI: would you like to play solaris?

Edited by Khobai, 13 February 2018 - 01:47 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 13 February 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

well there are people here that wanna turn this game into call of duty with mechs.

You should exaggerate more. You aren't exaggerating enough!

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 February 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

You should exaggerate more. You aren't exaggerating enough!

In his defense, there have actually been some people on the forum who want to the TTK to be lower (faster kills) rather than just preserving the current TTK as it is now, and that's a pretty important distinction to make. Someone in particular suggested to cut it in half across the board.

[Mystere]

FunkyT, on 13 February 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

My reasoning:
The most subjective one first: When Gauss/PPC was running rampant, the game was the least fun it has ever been for me. It is simply not fun the be pinpoint picked apart from right outside your nominal fighting distance, with the shooter already being back to cover before the hitsparks have even settled.

But shooting clay pigeons -- or dying while trying -- was fun during that time as well.