347 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

iLLcapitan, on 12 February 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

Also, I'm not aboard the 'replace LpLs with LLs' on IS side. LpL still rule in their range bracket,

I used to think that. But the extra 6 heat sinks provided by the LLs make a huge difference in being able to sustain your rate of fire.

iLLcapitan, on 12 February 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

if its skirmish on Grim Plexus you're better off with ERLs anyhow so...

Agreed.

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

Most competent units I faced against emphasize big alpha in trades, rather than sustain.

True. Sadly, this also makes matches against them boring, as they dig in and focus alphas on anything that peeks.

It's a legit strategy... in fact, the best strategy. Just happens to also make the game dull, unfortunately.

[Dajegas]

pheeere, on 12 February 2018 - 03:39 AM, said:

So your argument is that just because you suck at heat management, the build is too hot and not playable. Not that I did not expect this answer, I just wanted to see it stated from your side. These days I play 90% of my playtime FP/CW, on many evenings against EVIL/BCMC multiple times in a row. They use these hot builds all the time, some of them multiple times per deck. You tell those guys over in their threads that their builds suck because they are too hot, please do it. I'll be grabbing my popcorn in the meantime

The build is too hot for pure brawling, of course. You poptart, re-position, make use of your ECM, stay guarded by your teammates. If your aiming is worth anything, you will wreck face with the build. If not, well... It is too hot for you, then.

Look, I'll make it simple for you.
Cooldown time of HLL is approx 5 seconds so in 15 seconds you can shoot 3 alpha. Now can you really? No, because you have to cool down first. In the meantime IS side either pushes you or can alpha strike 5 times having a 3 sec. cooldown time. Either way, the IS player has done more damage than you in those 15 seconds. If all the damage is directed at you or split between you and some of your teammates does not change the fact that IS mechs have more DPS.

However, as you have already decided that what I say is worth nothing because I'm no good player, be my guest. I find strange, however, that you did not apply the same criteria with the OP stats. Maybe cherrypicking statistics suits you better that playing the game.

[Athom83]

Dajegas, on 12 February 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

Look, I'll make it simple for you.
Cooldown time of HLL is approx 5 seconds so in 15 seconds you can shoot 3 alpha. Now can you really? No, because you have to cool down first. In the meantime IS side either pushes you or can alpha strike 5 times having a 3 sec. cooldown time. Either way, the IS player has done more damage than you in those 15 seconds. If all the damage is directed at you or split between you and some of your teammates does not change the fact that IS mechs have more DPS.

Lol. I think you are forgetting mechs cool down between shots. With the DHS you can stuff in clan mechs you can mostly nullify the heat per tick added by HLLs, and cool off everything gained before the weapon finishes recycling. Just because you can't build a Clan mech doesn't mean others can't.

[El Bandito]

Dajegas, on 12 February 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

Look, I'll make it simple for you.
Cooldown time of HLL is approx 5 seconds so in 15 seconds you can shoot 3 alpha. Now can you really? No, because you have to cool down first. In the meantime IS side either pushes you or can alpha strike 5 times having a 3 sec. cooldown time. Either way, the IS player has done more damage than you in those 15 seconds. If all the damage is directed at you or split between you and some of your teammates does not change the fact that IS mechs have more DPS.

Why should I worry about heat when I am behind cover, once I shot my load? Trading is what Clans excel at, and all good units practice it. IS simply cannot win the mid-range trade.

Soon enough Mercstar will switch back to Clan side. I expect "Clans OP" threads to follow after.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 February 2018 - 04:50 AM.

[Luminis]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 04:35 AM, said:

Soon enough Mercstar will switch back to Clan side. I expect "Clans OP" threads to follow after.

"Balance is fine, it's the big units!" was the Clan motto throughout the entirety of Clan dominance, wasn't it?

Funny how that's not the case anymore

[pheeere]

Dajegas, on 12 February 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

Look, I'll make it simple for you.
Cooldown time of HLL is approx 5 seconds so in 15 seconds you can shoot 3 alpha. Now can you really? No, because you have to cool down first. In the meantime IS side either pushes you or can alpha strike 5 times having a 3 sec. cooldown time. Either way, the IS player has done more damage than you in those 15 seconds. If all the damage is directed at you or split between you and some of your teammates does not change the fact that IS mechs have more DPS.

However, as you have already decided that what I say is worth nothing because I'm no good player, be my guest. I find strange, however, that you did not apply the same criteria with the OP stats. Maybe cherrypicking statistics suits you better that playing the game.

Funny thing, you accuse me of the exact thing you are doing in this thread. Your entire chain of argumentation is founded on the assumption that said Hellbringer (or other Clan mech) faces the IS opponent on a flat surface without any cover and outside of the Clan mechs optimal range. You ignore every single relevant factor for the scenarios you describe.

Talk about cherry-picking... Funny how that works, eh?

And for the last part, you seem to rarely ever drop in FP (based on your description of match situations) and I cannot remember seeing you there, ever. I think there's a lot of things that suit you better than playing this game Having a consistent chain of reasonable arguments is not one of them, though.

Edited by pheeere, 12 February 2018 - 05:36 AM.

[El Bandito]

Luminis, on 12 February 2018 - 05:16 AM, said:

"Balance is fine, it's the big units!" was the Clan motto throughout the entirety of Clan dominance, wasn't it?

Funny how that's not the case anymore

Yes, Clan side have been dominating with their superior tech for so long, so once PGI starts to nerf them for balance, they start to cry.

Balance is not fine. Otherwise IS side wouldn't need the 25 extra tons. Or bunch of quirks.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 February 2018 - 05:52 AM.

[Luminis]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 05:44 AM, said:

Balance is NOT fine. Otherwise IS side wouldn't need the 25 extra tons. Or bunch of quirks.

Not saying it is or was.

I just find it funny that this very credo has been dropped completely as soon as Clean superiority took a hit.

[Yondu Udonta]

Dajegas, on 12 February 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

Look, I'll make it simple for you.
In the meantime IS side either pushes you or can alpha strike 5 times having a 3 sec. cooldown time. Either way, the IS player has done more damage than you in those 15 seconds. If all the damage is directed at you or split between you and some of your teammates does not change the fact that IS mechs have more DPS.

I can most definitely alpha 5 times in 15s with my IS laser vomit mechs.

[TKSax]

If you take the ECM Toroso off the HBR you can run 2 HLL 5 ERML for a 71 Point alpha and fire a lot more because there is a torso omni pod with 10% cooldown. Of course in Faction Play with the amount of LRM's its probably not worth it, however in the regular que it is really good.

[Aiden Skye]

Clans have become very boring. Less mechs, less weapons, way less customization options, less fun.
More heat, more spread, more duration, more nerfs. I'm sick of having to build my clan mechs around the same tired weapons over and over. All the nerfs have made single weapons feel pretty useless. Everything has to be boated. Normal Acs have been stuck in their place holder form since clans launched and are still pretty much pointless next to ultras, which also for the most part are ether meh or are boated. When is this every going to get looked at?

According to some here, we should nerf even more....further driving the mid range high alpha meta....which to me has gotten incredibly boring. Even most of the previous posts in this thread are talking about the same boring laser vomit and not much else.

I find IS mechs way more fun to build and customize as there are just more options that feel good in the hands of the player, even without boating. And they aren't nearly has helpless as the forums will have you believe.

Edited by W A R K H A N, 12 February 2018 - 07:01 AM.

[Horseman]

Samial, on 12 February 2018 - 12:38 AM, said:

Again only mech i've ever got over 1000 damage on just this last week, me 1000+ and not op, i've never even seen 700 damage on any single IS mech ever.. in three years... and my second game ever in it i got 1000 plus.. you people..

You got lucky, outlier matches happen sometimes - I seem to remember a match where I scored over 1000 with a trial King Crab. Thing is... that was an outlier, not an indicator of your consistent performance with the mech in question.
If you can't ever get 700+ when actually trying, then either you're running terrible builds or you're just playing badly - quite possibly both.

Samial, on 11 February 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

Op is nuts.. Clans are are super ******* overpowered as they ever were, those nerfs did jack and **** to balance the game, IS get **** on every match..

Hardly. Are you trying to solo pug into FW or something? That only flies in Scouting, for Invasion you want to find an organized group.

[sycocys]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 04:35 AM, said:

Soon enough Mercstar will switch back to Clan side. I expect "Clans OP" threads to follow after.

So I wasn't far off when I suggested that most of the bias was because the larger units moved to the IS and they were facing the pug and small unit population.

I guess the solution is for the op's unit to stay IS when MercStar goes back and match up against some competition instead of just trying to farm pugs and small units all the time.

[sycocys]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

So is the complaint about ECM in general or just Hellbringer specifically?

The problem I have with it is the combination of ECM + the Hellbringer. I'm sure its a lore thing, but its never been a good fit balance-wise given the way they implemented, or even currently implement, ECM.
Even at its now nerfed down setting and little to no skill nodes that box still makes the HBR a significantly better choice for a coordinated drop deck than most any of the other clan heavies.

[Yondu Udonta]

sycocys, on 12 February 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

The problem I have with it is the combination of ECM + the Hellbringer. I'm sure its a lore thing, but its never been a good fit balance-wise given the way they implemented, or even currently implement, ECM.
Even at its now nerfed down setting and little to no skill nodes that box still makes the HBR a significantly better choice for a coordinated drop deck than most any of the other clan heavies.

Meta is poking rn, with the profile HBRs have it is really capable of doing so unlike it's closest laser vomit counterpart the EBJ. I don't think ECM really matters unless against lurm potatoes since any decent pilot would be able to see you without actually detecting you on their sensors.

[Lances107]

Ermms the IS forum people will never admit to there advantages over clans. Once I had a bunch of them trying to tell me that heat was not an issue with the clans... Right...

Anyways I am not for extreme nerfing or buffing. I would like some flavor in the clan builds again. The ghost heat for two clan ultra ac 20 needs to go. The ghost heat for using more two of any large laser/pulse laser needs to go, id settle for three. The ghost heat for more then two clan ultra ac 10s needs to go. Its not like the base heat would not be difficult to deal with. Just a loosen the grip some thats all. Increasing the clan drop deck on invasions would be nice too.

I think the advantage of the IS is going to shine with the Fafnir comes out and IS starts running crazy gauss vomits with their heavy gauss. They got heavy gauss cool. Why not increase the clan gauss optimal range back to where it used to be before it got nerfed. To level the playing field some.

[El Bandito]

sycocys, on 12 February 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

So I wasn't far off when I suggested that most of the bias was because the larger units moved to the IS and they were facing the pug and small unit population.

I guess the solution is for the op's unit to stay IS when MercStar goes back and match up against some competition instead of just trying to farm pugs and small units all the time.

Hey, we faced 420, EVIL, BCMC, and until recently KCom. There are/were a lot of strong units in Clans. They are just not as big as us. Even if they defeat one of our group, two more will be kicking pug teams' arses.

Lances107, on 12 February 2018 - 07:33 AM, said:

Ermms the IS forum people will never admit to there advantages over clans. Once I had a bunch of them trying to tell me that heat was not an issue with the clans... Right...

Anyways I am not for extreme nerfing or buffing. I would like some flavor in the clan builds again. The ghost heat for two clan ultra ac 20 needs to go. The ghost heat for using more two of any large laser/pulse laser needs to go, id settle for three. The ghost heat for more then two clan ultra ac 10s needs to go. Its not like the base heat would not be difficult to deal with. Just a loosen the grip some thats all. Increasing the clan drop deck on invasions would be nice too.

I think the advantage of the IS is going to shine with the Fafnir comes out and IS starts running crazy gauss vomits with their heavy gauss. They got heavy gauss cool. Why not increase the clan gauss optimal range back to where it used to be before it got nerfed. To level the playing field some.

Fatnir is not gonna add to what the Sleipnir and the Mauler-2P are already doing, BTW. You are overestimating the difference that fatty with bad hitboxes potentially can make. And IS Heavy Gauss vomit only amounts to 65-70 alpha at 250 meters. 250 meters. On mechs that stroll around mere 50-55 kph due to forced Std engine.

Methinks Clanners should get better at shooting side torsi.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 February 2018 - 07:39 AM.

[sycocys]

Yondu the Ravager, on 12 February 2018 - 07:27 AM, said:

Meta is poking rn, with the profile HBRs have it is really capable of doing so unlike it's closest laser vomit counterpart the EBJ. I don't think ECM really matters unless against lurm potatoes since any decent pilot would be able to see you without actually detecting you on their sensors.

LRMs aren't why they use ECM.

[sycocys]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 07:33 AM, said:

Hey, we faced 420, EVIL, BCMC, and until recently KCom. There are/were a lot of strong units in Clans. They are just not as big as us. Even if they defeat one of our group, two more will be kicking pug teams' arses.

I've never had a problem with MS, you guys have always seemed to at least attempt to find other groups to face. The units that follow you back and forth though so they can deliberately attempt to avoid coordinated units by letting you drop against them is another story though.

[Peiper]

The solution is and always has been BATTLE VALUE.

Tonnage does not show the value of a mech. PGI's attempt to make all mechs of equal tonnage equal is ********.

I'm not a mathhammer guy so I'm going to make up a comparison, and you car junkies can go ape s--t telling me I'm wrong later.

Clan Camero weighs 1.5 tons. It has a 400hp engine, top speed of 150mph (or 252345 kph, whatever you Canadians use), manual 6 speed transmission, turbocharged 424 V-8.
Battle value, er cost: $40K

IS Taurus is 1.5 tons. It has a 160hp engine, top speed of 90mph downhill, automatic 3 speed transmission, fuel efficient 4 cylinder engine.
Battle Value, er cost: $18K

PGI's solution.
Clan Camero weighs 1.5 tons. It has a 160hp engine, top speed of 90mph downhill, automatic 3 speed transmission, fuel efficient 4 cylinder engine.
It costs: $40k.

IS Taurus is 1.5 tons. It has a 160hp engine, top speed of 90mph downhill, automatic 3 speed transmission, fuel efficient 4 cylinder engine.
It costs: $18K

My solution, use battle value instead of tonnage in matchmaker. Quit pretending all mechs are equal and rate them as they should be. Don't be scared that this is what they do when creating forces in Battletech, and any other tabletop game where armys have 'point' values. It's how the gaming world has balanced imbalanced forces for decades.

Or, you can do what the majority of people seem to be fixated on and tweek values over and over and over until we all die of cookie cutter boredom.