347 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

Bud Crue, on 19 February 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

May be a troll build, but its a damn effective one at killing lights is all I am saying.

It was a viable option on caustic first drop MRBC. I guess still is since it's still the same really and smpls NVAs got nerfed so the go to double NVA decks aren't as strong as they once were leaving some argument for using it still.

[Ghogiel]

Jman5, on 19 February 2018 - 09:08 AM, said:

Also, worth keeping in mind that both the wolf hound and commando do not get jumpjets while the Arctic Cheetah and Myst Linx get both Jump Jets and an ECM omnipod that they can slot into whatever variant they want to play. Wolf hound has 1 ECM varient locked behind a paywall. The Spider 5D is the one IS light with JJ/ECM but it only gets 3 energy hardpoints.

On the flip side, Clan Lights also generally get more hardpoints to work with on top of ECM/JJ combo option on 40% of their lights, which opens up tons of options.

And when it comes to quirks, I think the Jenner IIC is the only clan light without them.

Now, I'm of the opinion that balance is close enough that you can make IS compete, but I think it's silly to act like Clan lights aren't sitting on an embarrassment of riches.

ECM increasing a mechs power in todays MWO? Eh..not really. People don't even run it on their lights anymore.

[Jman5]

Ghogiel, on 19 February 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

ECM increasing a mechs power in todays MWO? Eh..not really. People don't even run it on their lights anymore.

Perhaps not as much in competitive where lock on missiles are often either banned or reliably not used. However in faction play I think it gets a lot of utility. Especially since you know the map/mode ahead of time. Being able to block lrms and cancel narc for your team on Polar highlands can be a game changer. I see enough LRMs in faction play obliterating people that I think this alone makes it worth it. Not popping up on everyone's radar in Conquest can allow you to cap more safely which is what Faction Play Conquest almost always comes down to. Sneaking to the enemy base without radar showing your location for Incursion.

Personally, I think the soft power of just being less noticeable means you wind up taking considerably less damage on average.

Edited by Jman5, 19 February 2018 - 09:42 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Jman5, on 19 February 2018 - 09:41 AM, said:

Perhaps not as much in competitive where lock on missiles are often either banned or reliably not used. However in faction play I think it gets a lot of utility. Especially since you know the map/mode ahead of time. Being able to block lrms and cancel narc for your team on Polar highlands can be a game changer. I see enough LRMs in faction play obliterating people that I think this alone makes it worth it. Not popping up on everyone's radar in Conquest can allow you to cap more safely which is what Faction Play Conquest almost always comes down to. Sneaking to the enemy base without radar showing your location for Incursion.

Personally, I think the soft power of just being less noticeable means you wind up taking considerably less damage on average.

Yeah its still good to farm potatoes. It's not worth discussing things down that route or we fall into balance by potato.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 February 2018 - 08:13 AM, said:

FP is a horrible judge of balance. And doesn't the IS still have a tonnage advantage?

Correct. IS will be screwed if it loses the tonnage advantage, which basically sums up the current faction balance.

[Bud Crue]

Jman5, on 19 February 2018 - 09:41 AM, said:

Perhaps not as much in competitive where lock on missiles are often either banned or reliably not used. However in faction play I think it gets a lot of utility. Especially since you know the map/mode ahead of time. Being able to block lrms and cancel narc for your team on Polar highlands can be a game changer. I see enough LRMs in faction play obliterating people that I think this alone makes it worth it. Not popping up on everyone's radar in Conquest can allow you to cap more safely which is what Faction Play Conquest almost always comes down to. Sneaking to the enemy base without radar showing your location for Incursion.

Personally, I think the soft power of just being less noticeable means you wind up taking considerably less damage on average.

I’d say in group queue ECM is a waste 75% of the time. Can’t speak to other modes as I rarely play them. But for most games I am playing in any ECM mech (with appropriate maxed skill tree), the ECM is simply irrelevant. People shoot by sight, and its anti-LRM, etc. affects don’t come into play unless we or the enemy is running an LRM theme. No point in taking it at all.

But that other 25% of the time that still makes me not give up on it entirely. It’s a night and day difference. I have games where I have taken a MAD-IIC-D and literally stood int the middle of a brawl shooting at all the enemy mechs that walk by and ignore me as if I were invisible. Other times I can stand on a hill sky lighted against the horizon and snipe at mechs for a good 2-3 minutes before someone thinks to shoot back. Add stealth to that in a mech like the Enforcer or my new favorite troll a single LGR Phoenix Hawk and you can pop folks all day with nary a response...even wolf packs of lights will occasionally walk right by you.

But yeah, that other 75% of the time makes for a good argument that ECM is really a waste of tonnage and nodes.

[Jman5]

Ghogiel, on 19 February 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

Yeah its still good to farm potatoes. It's not worth discussing things down that route or we fall into balance by potato.

I try to avoid talking too much about competitive league meta because I've been out of it for so long. I just think that every game type (competitive, group queue, solo queue, Invasion, Scouting) exist in their own slightly different meta bubble as you have special rules, play styles, and expectations about what sort of builds/players you're fighting with and against.

I mean it's easy to say ECM isn't worth bringing for MRBC when they ban streaks on the one round that they would be most effective.

While I agree that a top-down balance is an important consideration, I also think that what's best in a league match is in part dictated by the special rules they have to follow. Just like faction play. The guy who made this thread was talking about Faction play and that's an area I know a bit about because I play it a lot, so I try to focus on that.

With that all in mind having more options to choose either ECM or more guns is a luxury that Inner Sphere light pilots don't really get.

[LordNothing]

clan ballistics only suck when you compare them to what kind of laser vomit builds are possible. ton for ton slot for slot clan ballistics are superior to anything the is has to offer. i hate running clan because all the viable builds are laser vomit. where as on the is side i can run mixed builds and fun weapons and get good results. it would be better to bring their lasers down some more and give the mechs a little bit more durability.

[HGAK47]

LordNothing, on 19 February 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

clan ballistics only suck when you compare them to what kind of laser vomit builds are possible. ton for ton slot for slot clan ballistics are superior to anything the is has to offer. i hate running clan because all the viable builds are laser vomit. where as on the is side i can run mixed builds and fun weapons and get good results. it would be better to bring their lasers down some more and give the mechs a little bit more durability.

Bro, all I know is that I wish Clan UAC 20`s were as nice to use as IS UAC20`s. In fact I prefer IS ballistics outright, aside from the tighter groupings with less shells, Clan dakka seems to have more drop than IS. (Is that just me? The weapon ranges state that Clan dakka has a lot more range than IS dakka yet IS dakka feels more accurate)

[LordNothing]

HGAK47, on 19 February 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

Bro, all I know is that I wish Clan UAC 20`s were as nice to use as IS UAC20`s. In fact I prefer IS ballistics outright, aside from the tighter groupings with less shells, Clan dakka seems to have more drop than IS. (Is that just me? The weapon ranges state that Clan dakka has a lot more range than IS dakka yet IS dakka feels more accurate)

the gun itself is better (it weighs less, and takes up less space, and i really don't consider longer burst fire a detriment) but i think the problem comes from the fact that clan mechs are too flimsy to brawl with. you got an is mech with durability quirks up the wazoo and a uac20, and a clan mech without those quirks using a uac20, clan looses not because the gun is bad but because the mech its bolted to dies first. this is not a weapon problem.

thats why i say bring clan laser vomit down in favor of durability quirks. that way clan ballistics start looking much much better, and your mech will live long enough to brawl with them.

[Jman5]

HGAK47, on 19 February 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

Bro, all I know is that I wish Clan UAC 20`s were as nice to use as IS UAC20`s. In fact I prefer IS ballistics outright, aside from the tighter groupings with less shells, Clan dakka seems to have more drop than IS. (Is that just me? The weapon ranges state that Clan dakka has a lot more range than IS dakka yet IS dakka feels more accurate)

I would happily trade you +1 projectile and +2% jam rate if I could save 20% on tonnage/slot space and 33% range advantage. I haven't tested drop speed, but they both are set to drop at 9.8m/s and they have the same projectile speed. Maybe you were playing an IS mech with good velocity quirks/skills.

[MischiefSC]

Ghogiel, on 19 February 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

Yeah its still good to farm potatoes. It's not worth discussing things down that route or we fall into balance by potato.

Except this thread is, specifically, discussing IS v Clan balance where FW is concerned.

Also if comp play was done with 12 v 12, drop decks and with FW criteria then it would start to become relevant, there's more to ECM than just avoiding LRMs just not much that's relevant in 8 v 8 Conquest that's often finished inside 7 minutes.

Even beyond that while FW shouldn't be the basis for balance it does mirror overall balance reasonably well; forcing people to stick to IS or Clan in their entirety means that you can't bring GHRs or BLRs or WLFs with your HBK IICs and SNVs and SMNs - you've got to try and fill your deck and drop 100% with one sides tech. Overall while there's a handful of strong IS mechs (WLF in a niche, Bushie in a niche, WHR in a niche, GHR in a niche, BLR in a niche, ANH in a niche) overall Clans are still stronger across all scenarios from brawl push to range poke and Skirmish, Invasion, Conquest and Siege. Hot or cold maps.

However the very fact that this thread exists is a reminder that you absolutely can't balance off potato because there's still a lot of potatoes who firmly hold very spud ideas.

[Mcgral18]

Kubernetes, on 19 February 2018 - 08:33 AM, said:

I disagree with this one. The HBK-IIC only excels in the role of a pocket heavy. In other medium roles (like fighting lights and other mediums), it's very mediocre.

Deathlike, on 19 February 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

You are truly underestimating the HBK-IIC (although the most popular variant is the A). High mounts are valued significantly. It tends to carry more than its weight compared to most other mediums within its class.

Different roles

Bushi does short range, while the H2C suffers for that, because of legs and agility
I'm not sure the Sphere has anything that can compare to the H2C at range. Size of the alpha, or Dam/tick
Poptart, Sparky, maybe. BJ

Brawling, the Bushie can do
But so can the Huntsman and Nova
There, it's close enough, but brawling as a whole is the weakest part of the game ATM
Only in low tonnage situations, like Scouting or drop 1 MRBC

[Johnny Z]

I was in a bad mood, then I seen this topic.

[Sergent Aj]

i agree with Alex

[Rebel581]

The real problem of IS people is... the IS people! Too much people crying like childs with mom to let her nerf the clans, than we have trolls who do the same and finally fanboy (someone maybe inside the PGI...) that increases this behavior and the end of this is the waste of a game that can be really amazing!
I guess now someone writes this is not true, someone will not agree, but i can proff it! How? Take look at the population, Take a look at the turnig wheel trying to find a match....
Wait...
Wait....
Wait.......
Wait.........
All people turned to IS because clan is OVERNERFED and only some "loyalist" can stay there...
Is this false?
Than hit the button, launch a faction play and wait again.........

And that's not all. Someone gone away for an unbalanced game still full of bugs, glitches and poor of new maps.
I hope you all consider what i wrote not thinking and answering as an IS fanboy or the game is over, even for fanboys and trolls....

[Dogstar]

Sergent Aj, on 26 February 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

i agree with Alex

Did you have to necro this silly thread just to say that?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Rebel581, on 27 February 2018 - 04:37 AM, said:

The real problem of IS people is... the IS people! Too much people crying like childs with mom to let her nerf the clans, than we have trolls who do the same and finally fanboy (someone maybe inside the PGI...) that increases this behavior and the end of this is the waste of a game that can be really amazing!
I guess now someone writes this is not true, someone will not agree, but i can proff it! How? Take look at the population, Take a look at the turnig wheel trying to find a match....
Wait...
Wait....
Wait.......
Wait.........
All people turned to IS because clan is OVERNERFED and only some "loyalist" can stay there...
Is this false?
Than hit the button, launch a faction play and wait again.........

And that's not all. Someone gone away for an unbalanced game still full of bugs, glitches and poor of new maps.
I hope you all consider what i wrote not thinking and answering as an IS fanboy or the game is over, even for fanboys and trolls....

So... everyone went IS instead of Clan in FP, so Clan queue times are really fast because of all the opponents?

Or Clan queue times are really long, because everyone went Clan because they aren't overnerfed at all?

Or do you think that everyone went IS instead of Clan, but Clan queue times are too long because... aliens?

A little clarification would be splendid.

[LordNothing]

still maintain that clans need nerfs in some areas (vomit) and buffs in others (durability), just to make good builds that are more compatible with other play styles. i maintain an is and clan drop deck and they are night and day. to make the clan mechs viable they are all high alpha laser vomit builds. meanwhile on the is side i have mixed builds mrm brawlers and autocannons everywhere. the is deck is most certainly more fun to use.

clans have more energy hardpoints in better locations, and better lasers by far, and even with all the multitudes of nerfs they still do. you can nerf the mechs to the point where the power of vomit is countered, but that kills all the other play styles. this is the wrong way to go. the mechs need more durability, other lesser used weapons need buffs. but the lasers need to continue receiving nerfs (except perhaps small pulse and micros that are so bad i cant run knife fighter gargles builds anymore). its also the reason why when the is does decide to push they just butcher the clanners by overheating the laser vomit poke mechs, because none of the other play styles are viable with clan hardware. if they had a few viable brawlers they could easily absorb such a push.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 February 2018 - 12:16 PM.

[Rebel581]

Jay Leon Hart, on 27 February 2018 - 12:00 PM, said:

So... everyone went IS instead of Clan in FP, so Clan queue times are really fast because of all the opponents?

Or Clan queue times are really long, because everyone went Clan because they aren't overnerfed at all?

Or do you think that everyone went IS instead of Clan, but Clan queue times are too long because... aliens?

A little clarification would be splendid.

Maybe someone go back to overnefed clan as we did, because we are bored to see the infinite searching...
maybe we are the aliens you was talking about...
The problem is not to nerf the vomit, if some piloto is not capable to play better he try harder, wining to nerf the opposite faction is not the option dude...
Take out the range from all IS quirk and restore DHS normal cool efficency
IS must have a strong armor, long mech durability and short beam durability.
Clan must have the range at price of long beam durability, weaker armor than IS, but fastest engines with more burst depending on how greater is the engine.
IS has more tons to drop and clan less, as now it is.
than set in this game the reactive armore and the reflective one.
So noobs and winers can survive much longer..
That's all