30 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 21 February 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

So as far as I can tell, it's any enemy from 90 to 720 yards makes ECM worthless?

And with skills that raises it from 135 to 720 yards?

Seems like a waste of a ton and slots to me, now.

Its mechanics have been explained. At this point its your sarcasm and confirmation bias getting in the way.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Roughneck45, on 21 February 2018 - 07:06 PM, said:

Its mechanics have been explained. At this point its your sarcasm and confirmation bias getting in the way.

Probably because in about half of the matches where it fails me, none of the mechanics apply correctly. No enemy even remotely nearby, no one tagging me, no UAV, and yet here come magical missiles out of the sky even with 100% radar deprivation and full ECM skill bonuses.

[Roughneck45]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 21 February 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

Probably because in about half of the matches where it fails me, none of the mechanics apply correctly. No enemy even remotely nearby, no one tagging me, no UAV, and yet here come magical missiles out of the sky even with 100% radar deprivation and full ECM skill bonuses.

Once again, confirmation bias. You are not an all knowing and seeing guru of the battlefield. If its being countered, its a counter that someone explained previously. From your description it sounds like you are being hit by a NARC beacon, which was explained on the first page.

Edited by Roughneck45, 21 February 2018 - 07:22 PM.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Roughneck45, on 21 February 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

Once again, confirmation bias. You are not an all knowing and seeing guru of the battlefield. If its being countered, its a counter
that someone explained previously. From your description it sounds like you are being hit by a NARC beacon, which was explained on the first page.

Yes, please go on and explain what I saw and what happened. Obviously you were there and saw everything. There's no possible chance there's some sort of bug somewhere that's being exploited by people, which would explain why I want a dev response and not players spouting things that I've already taken into account.

Like earlier today, when a frozen city assault map boiled down to me vs the other mech capping bases, and he was LRMing me from my home base. As in, across the map. No narc, no UAV, no line of sight. 100% radar deprivation. Obviously I missed a sneaky dead light mech on their team tagging me, or a non-existent bright light in the sky that's easy to spot.

[Tesunie]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 21 February 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

Yes, please go on and explain what I saw and what happened. Obviously you were there and saw everything.

Yes. And of course you saw and know all that happened within that match yourself... No chance you could have missed that one mech... or maybe that UAV... or TAG laser.... or...

You do know it's easier to be seen, than it is for you to see others. Right?

[Ruccus]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 21 February 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

Like earlier today, when a frozen city assault map boiled down to me vs the other mech capping bases, and he was LRMing me from my home base. As in, across the map. No narc, no UAV, no line of sight. 100% radar deprivation. Obviously I missed a sneaky dead light mech on their team tagging me, or a non-existent bright light in the sky that's easy to spot.

Did you take into account he could have been deadfiring his missiles? He knows you're capping the base, he knows hitting the capper will delay the cap, he has ammo left, so he deadfires his LRMs into the base in hopes of hitting you with one or more missiles to delay the cap. I can pretty much guarantee you that's what happened.

You don't need a lock to fire LRMs, it just won't track an enemy when being fired without a lock.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Ruccus, on 21 February 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

Did you take into account he could have been deadfiring his missiles? He knows you're capping the base, he knows hitting the capper will delay the cap, he has ammo left, so he deadfires his LRMs into the base in hopes of hitting you with one or more missiles to delay the cap. I can pretty much guarantee you that's what happened.

You don't need a lock to fire LRMs, it just won't track an enemy when being fired without a lock.

Do you get the "incoming missiles" warning when they aren't locked on to you?

Tesunie, on 21 February 2018 - 08:26 PM, said:

Yes. And of course you saw and know all that happened within that match yourself... No chance you could have missed that one mech... or maybe that UAV... or TAG laser.... or...

You do know it's easier to be seen, than it is for you to see others. Right?

Read the post. It was down to 1 v 1. Tag lasers are also super easy to spot, so are UAVs. There was no way this guy could have me targeted.

[JediPanther]

Unless a lrm boat was close enough for los and decided to blind fire you'd have no incoming missile warning. If the missiles were volley they were is lrm, if they were blue in a stream they were clan. The max range for lrm on the is side is 1035m with a rare exception of one or two mechs.

[Horseman]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 21 February 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

So as far as I can tell, it's any enemy from 90 to 720 yards makes ECM worthless?
And with skills that raises it from 135 to 720 yards?
Seems like a waste of a ton and slots to me, now.

Jesus, no. That's completely wrong.
An ECM with no skills can be locked by an enemy within LOS at 560m, a fully skilled one only within 200m provided you are not under effect of any ECM counters.

Now, this range can be increased if the enemy invests - a lot - into sensor buffs:

• 35% range from Sensors tree
  
• 25% from BAP OR C-AP, 15% from a C-LAP
  
• 7.5% from C-TCVIII OR 7.9% from IS-TCVIII OR 6% from Command Console
  
• 150m if he's a Cyclops or close to one.
  
• Some mechs like JVN-11B, Raven and a couple Black Knight variants have sensor buffs of their own that can stack with the buff from a nearby Cyclops. 100m for a Raven or Javelin, but only Raven can (BARELY) fit TCVIII+BAP
  
• Net result, 67.9% sensor buff = 543,2m , up to 150m extra from Cyclops buff and up to 100m if the mech locking you is an EW Raven. Note: I'm making an assumption that the sensor buffs stack additively with each other's value (which is how quirks stack in this game)
  
• A Cyclops can have 693.2m additional sensor range from this, an EW Raven with a nearby Cyclops can have 793.2m additional sensor range.
  
• This range will be reduced by 75% against your ECM - if your ECM is fully skilled. Therefore, a Cyclops with all the listed buffs could lock your ECMed mech from 373.3m away, a Raven could lock your ECMed mech from 398.3m away (if it has the Cyclops buff). Other mechs that can carry the tonnage could lock your ECMed mech from 335.8m away
  
• Practically, nobody sane does that because it takes too much tonnage and pod space.
  
• Unless your ECM has been disabled in some fashion, it will slow down the target lock.

If there's a nearby enemy but he doesn't have an Active Probe or ECM he could switch to Counter, being close enough (you'll see a "low signal" icon on him - I think the range is 90m ) will stop him from getting target locks on you entirely.

DerHuhnTeufel, on 21 February 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

Probably because in about half of the matches where it fails me, none of the mechanics apply correctly. No enemy even remotely nearby, no one tagging me, no UAV, and yet here come magical missiles out of the sky even with 100% radar deprivation and full ECM skill bonuses.

If your ECM is destroyed, you will lose its' bonuses entirely.
If you switched ECM to Counter at any point, you won't receive the stealth effect until you switch it back to Disrupt.

DerHuhnTeufel, on 21 February 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

There's no possible chance there's some sort of bug somewhere that's being exploited by people, which would explain why I want a dev response

You aren't getting a dev response, by this point it should be bleeding obvious.
If you contact support, you will be told the exact same information you received here.

Quote

Like earlier today, when a frozen city assault map boiled down to me vs the other mech capping bases, and he was LRMing me from my home base. As in, across the map. No narc, no UAV, no line of sight. 100% radar deprivation. Obviously I missed a sneaky dead light mech on their team tagging me, or a non-existent bright light in the sky that's easy to spot.

Next time when it happens, start taking screenshots. If you want anyone to believe your claim, you need to bring proof.

[Tesunie]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 21 February 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

Read the post. It was down to 1 v 1. Tag lasers are also super easy to spot, so are UAVs. There was no way this guy could have me targeted.

Oh. I've read your post. The story seems to constantly shift to counter someone's explanation of what may or may not have happened.

Like, for instance, if it was really 1v1, who shot those LRMs? Obviously it wasn't strictly a 1v1 situation then.

I'd also mention that you can't see TAG (or anything else) that could be hitting you from behind. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that someone decided to bring TAG on some kind of really fast mech, and then got behind you and used it there. Or, in same said situation, instead of a TAG they more likely brought a UAV and popped it behind you instead of in front of you.

Just like arty and air strikes, if you don't see the smoke because it was placed behind or even underneath you, that doesn't mean that the strike that just hit you was completely unannounced with no smoke. It just meant you didn't see it was all.

As I've also said, it is easier for others to see you than it is for you to see them. For example, stick your hand around a corner. People on the other side of that corner can see your hand, even though you can't see them. A very similar situation could have happened here, and from your changing descriptions, very likely probably did.

Most likely, despite your (probably) best efforts, you suffered from tunnel vision and didn't notice some detail that got you locked with enemy LRMs. Or someone you didn't see got you locked as another possibility.


I've been LRMing for a long time in this game. I can tell you that I can be rather sneaky with how I use them, surprising people with locks they didn't think I had, or shooting them so close they didn't really get any reaction time to speak of.


I've already mentioned how ECM works, as well as several other people. So I'm not going to rehash how it works all over again. Suffice it to say that somehow you got hit with LRMs, despite ECM. How exactly we can not say for certain. We can only speculate and guess as to how it could have happened.

[nehebkau]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 21 February 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

Probably because in about half of the matches where it fails me, none of the mechanics apply correctly. No enemy even remotely nearby, no one tagging me, no UAV, and yet here come magical missiles out of the sky even with 100% radar deprivation and full ECM skill bonuses.

First, Radar Dep does NOTHING to stop an enemy locking on you, detecting you, or enhancing your ECM. Radar Dep only causes your enemy to loose a lock on you faster when you move out of Line of sight.
Second, With all the enhancements in the game it is possible for your ECM mech to be spotted from a helluva long distance away. A mech with all the sensor enhancements maxed will pretty much negate your ECM at all but extreme ranges and rain missiles on you at will if you stay in the open.

Having said that if you had ECM and you were getting shot it is not ECM is broken or "someone is cheating". What it is is that you didn't see who was targeting you and, more often than not, it is a pesky light mech with a tag and ECM standing behind you and you wouldn't have noticed that it was there. But the way that PGI has balanced it is, if you max ECM and your enemy maxes all their sensors and equipment then you are on the similar ground that you would have been had neither of you taken any ecm or sensor enhancements. So if you stand in the open ground and a dedicated LRM mech is on the field you will find that your ECM is barely worth the weight to equip it.

Basically DON'T rely on the magic Jesus box to protect you from LRMs etc, that is not what it is good for any more. ECM is more a positioning and/or a tool to give you the initiative. If you are having problems getting shot by LRMs you need to work more at staying in cover no amount of ECM will help you.

Lastly, you can get a delayed LRM incoming message or launch when you are playing people with really bad (or you have a really bad) ping. Network latency will show your mech in a different position than you think it is and you can be targeted that way.

Edited by nehebkau, 22 February 2018 - 10:50 AM.