83 replies to this topic

[Kubernetes]

Instead of nerfing lasers, restore agility. Laser vomit wouldn't hurt as much if you could twist and evade.

[Khobai]

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Instead of nerfing lasers, restore agility. Laser vomit wouldn't hurt as much if you could twist and evade.

Or both. Nerf lasers and restore agility. That would be even better.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 February 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

They buffed it to where it needed to be to compete with what are arguably the strongest 'Mechs on the other side. To its credit, IS HGauss-vomit still has more weaknesses than Clan Gauss-vomit, but this is why you can't always be buffing things. Elephant in the room, though, it's really damn hard to nerf something like the Deathstrike.

Aboslutely not saying it didn't. The optimal needed to be increased. It was the max that probably didn't need to end up where it did realistically. Hence it is indeed quite strong on IS armour buffed mechs, which go well together due to the HGauss boom-boom.

HGauss isn't really in competition to cGauss though, I mean the buff wasn't aimed at purpose. IS Assaults (and select hvys) have got another option that works if you position properly. One of the better things to come of the tech update.

Yeonne Greene, on 15 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

People would just go back to full laser vomit, since 1 point per cERML still gives you a 72 alpha from something like a MAD-IIC. You have to link Meds and Larges, which is its own can of worms.

You cannot expect one to understand how to fix the elephant if one does not understand what the elephant is in the first place. I mean look at the suggestion increasing HGauss to 570/1080... the stench of zero understanding lingers on.

The then lowering cERML to combat one mech? That's the way PGI nerfs and we've all seen what happens when they do it that way... Stale bread anyone?

And I agree, mobilty nerfing it won't work. It's been proven to be a failure on the NTG/HBKIIC etc. Plus it already, realistically, has a low mobilty.

It's a tricky predicament that PGI have created for themselves, but you heard it from Paul, the MCII is not overperforming (lulz). But then it does take a good player to MAKE it perform. The amount of people I see sub 400dmg in them makes me wonder.

[cougurt]

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 10:40 PM, said:

it would still be able to laser vomit. its just the max laser vomit alpha would be 60 damage instead of 78 damage.

theres no reason any clan mech needed to do a laser vomit alpha that big. when the biggest IS laser vomit alpha is way less than that.

ideally missiles should also be buffed which would also help the supernova. but PGI keeps making up lame excuses not to touch missiles despite how badly they need readjustment.

what reason would there ever be to run it if you're capped at 2 larges and 4 mediums? i can easily do that on a hellbringer or even a hunchback IIC. the only worthwhile build at that point would be mass ER larges.

[Khobai]

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The then lowering cERML to combat one mech? That's the way PGI nerfs and we've all seen what happens when they do it that way... Stale bread anyone?

CERML is overpowered on more than just one mech.

It is the very basis of laser vomit.

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what reason would there ever be to run it if you're capped at 2 larges and 4 mediums? i can easily do that on a hellbringer or even a hunchback IIC. the only worthwhile build at that point would be mass ER larges.

the reason is balance

clan mechs should not be able to do substantially higher laser vomit alphas than IS mechs

the highest laser vomit alpha for an IS mech is what? like 55 damage?. And you think clan mechs should be able to do 78 damage laser vomit alphas? NO.

as to why you would use the supernova? well if mediums and larges are linked for ghost heat so you could only fire 2 larges and 4 mediums... it would also allow for the ghost heat limit on non-heavy clan large lasers to be increased to 3-4

the supernova would have to transition to using larger lasers. but it would be better at that than it is now.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2018 - 10:59 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Kubernetes, on 15 February 2018 - 10:42 PM, said:

Instead of nerfing lasers, restore agility. Laser vomit wouldn't hurt as much if you could twist and evade.

^ This guy, he gets it.

Now we are onto the actual REASON laser vom has become so strong since the maze.

Further nerfing lasers is not the answer. A buff to IS DHS would actually pose an interesting option and has for a while... But that will never appease thetiny sector of "TTK" workshippers that want it higher when right now it's higher than it ever was, just not for skilled players. And increasing it only further buffs, skilled players.

And thus the cycle continues and worshippers will want even more until it's so bad they just quite the game because of what they themselves, created.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

CERML is overpowered on more than just one mech.

It is the very basis of laser vomit.

cERML has been repeatadly nerfed. It is not the issue, added that IS ERML virtually matches cERML when the overall is taken into account with IS LL/ERML boating, the trades are almost even.

The problem here is you do not understand what the issue actually is.

It's bloated hardpoints that are very high mounted. Weapon or mech nerfs - will not fix it. You nerf the cERML dmg by 1, legit, it will change absolutely nothing and only hurt the lighter mechs like the 5cERML Addder for instance which becomes ineffective.

Again it comes back to understanding and you have the biggest tunnel vision all the time.

[PocketYoda]

I like the combo of dual LBX10s and Dual Snub PPCs on my assaults i find it does well.

[Khobai]

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cERML has been repeatadly nerfed

in the wrong ways. it was alpha potential that was the problem. not cooldown.

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cERML has been repeatadly nerfed. It is not the issue, added that IS ERML virtually matches cERML when the overall is taken into account with IS LL/ERML boating, the trades are almost even.

Sure because of IS superquirks which need to be removed from the game. But you cant get rid of superquirks if you dont try to balance the weapons at a more fundamental level.

And yes ISDHS need to be better. Thats a given.

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Further nerfing lasers is not the answer.

Clan laser alphas do 78 damage. IS laser alphas only do 55 damage.

That massive difference has to be reconciled. The damage has to come down on the clan laser vomit alphas.

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It's bloated hardpoints that are very high mounted. Weapon or mech nerfs - will not fix it. You nerf the cERML dmg by 1, legit, it will change absolutely nothing and only hurt the lighter mechs like the 5cERML Addder for instance which becomes ineffective.

The adder is not going to suddenly become ineffective just because you balanced the CERML better with the ISERML.

Lowering CERML damage to 6 and lowering the heat, cooldown, and duration proportionally is quite reasonable.

It not only balances it better with the ISERML at 5 damage. It balances it better with the CMPL at 7 damage. Pulses typically always do 1 more damage than normal lasers of the same size. So having the CMPL at 7 damage and the CERML at 6 damage is consistent.

CLPL is 12, CERLL is 11
ISLPL is 10, ISERLL is 9
ISMPL is 6, ISERML is 5
CMPL is 7, CERML is 7? why?

CERML needs to be 6 damage

The only other place thats different is on the small pulses, which also happen to be screwed up weapons because they dont follow that trend anymore. When small pulses were good before the nerfs its because they did 1 more damage than regular small lasers. for example, if a small laser does 4 damage, then a small pulse should do 5 damage.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2018 - 11:20 PM.

[Kubernetes]

Look at what's crushing big mechs like the Atlas -- it can't twist for s--t, despite having those ginormous shield arms. Give it twist speed and yaw and watch it walk through laser vomit like nothing. Most mechs now feel like crap in terms of agility. It's horrible. I want to run around in a powerful machine, not something that feels like it struggles to lift its arms. The agility nerfs have sapped the fun out of many chassis, and in the case of many assault mechs their playability.

[cougurt]

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

as to why you would use the supernova? well if mediums and larges are linked for ghost heat so you could only fire 2 larges and 4 mediums... it would also allow for the ghost heat limit on non-heavy clan large lasers to be increased to 3-4

the supernova would have to transition to using larger lasers. but it would be better at that than it is now.

in that case you'd still have 72 point laser alphas, and you'd still be able to run it on mechs like the hellbringer.

i wouldn't be opposed to reducing ER mediums to 6.5 or 6 damage and improving their cooldown/heat/duration though.

[Khobai]

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in that case you'd still have 72 point laser alphas, and you'd still be able to run it on mechs like the hellbringer

no because youd be limited to 2 larges and 4 mediums

or 3-4 larges with 0 mediums.

Kubernetes, on 15 February 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

Look at what's crushing big mechs like the Atlas -- it can't twist for s--t, despite having those ginormous shield arms. Give it twist speed and yaw and watch it walk through laser vomit like nothing. Most mechs now feel like crap in terms of agility. It's horrible. I want to run around in a powerful machine, not something that feels like it struggles to lift its arms. The agility nerfs have sapped the fun out of many chassis, and in the case of many assault mechs their playability.

thats more an assault problem in general

it not really why the atlas specifically is bad. the atlas has more problems than lacking agility (crappy torso pitch, inability to spam ballistics, enormous hitboxes, etc...)

even if you gave the atlas better torso twist it would still be worse than the annihilator

and I completely agree agility nerfs need to be reversed.

but its not mutually exclusive with laser nerfs. you can do both: nerf lasers and restore agility.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2018 - 11:29 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

as to why you would use the supernova? well if mediums and larges are linked for ghost heat so you could only fire 2 larges and 4 mediums... it would also allow for the ghost heat limit on non-heavy clan large lasers to be increased to 3-4

The way ghost heat works doesn't let you do this.

If two weapons are linked into the same grouping, then whichever weapon has the smaller cap is the cap that will govern the entire bundle.

So if you want to link larges and mediums and still be able to fire 2 larges and 4 mediums without ghost heat, then you have to give both the large and the medium the ability to fire 6 simultaneously without ghost heat.

[Khobai]

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The way ghost heat works doesn't let you do this.

If two weapons are linked into the same grouping, then whichever weapon has the smaller cap is the cap that will govern the entire bundle.

So if you want to link larges and mediums and still be able to fire 2 larges and 4 mediums without ghost heat, then you have to give both the large and the medium the ability to fire 6 simultaneously without ghost heat.

link mediums and large lasers

set the ghost heat limit of non-heavy large lasers to 3 (heavy larges stay at 2)

then set the ghost heat limit of medium lasers to 6

then any combination of medium/large lasers that includes both 2+ large lasers and more than 6 lasers total will trigger ghost heat

im sure it could be changed to work like that. just requires an additional 'and' statement.

ghost heat would need to be modified because it was never designed to handle combinations of different weapons. just prevent boating of a single type of weapon.

energy draw was really the system meant to handle combinations of different weapons. unfortunately we dont have energy draw.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2018 - 11:58 PM.

[cougurt]

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 11:22 PM, said:

no because youd be limited to 2 larges and 4 mediums

or 3-4 larges with 0 mediums.

yeah my bad, i misread what you said about the large laser ghost heat groups.

regardless, i think adjusting damage values directly is a better solution than ghost heat nonsense further limiting build options.

[Hit the Deck]

No one except Humpday post his/her dual HGauss build lol, so I'll just let you guys comment on these:

• 2HGauss+6ML ANH-1X (MLs -> ERMLs for longer range, bigger heat, and CD)
  
• 2HGauss+6MPL ANH-1X

The MPL-version needs special attention on the skill tree so you can fully utilize the added firepower of MPLs (it already has 2 less DHS) which means hitting those heat nodes. I'm not sure what to sacrifice in order to achieve this: durability, mobility, or sensors (seismic and radar dep). An idea: https://tarogato-mwo...5e-411f9d62f6b3 <- this sacrifices the sensor tree

[Sjorpha]

While I think that objectively speaking the 6mpl build is probably the strongest brawling build if you use double coolshots, I prefer the 5mpl myself because I like being able to skip the need for coolshots and not shave so much armor.

6ermeds if I'm going with 6 lasers for a more tradey playstyle.

Balance wise I thin the Hgauss is in a very good spot now with the new optimal range and should not be changed any more. It's much more fun and unique as it is now than it would be if made more like improved Hgauss, it would just be like a bigger normal gauss, boring as we already have normal gauss, so IMO that's a bad suggestion.

Regarding laser balance I don't really have a problem with clan being the high laser alpha faction, I kind of like the balancing where high alphas have long duration and/or spread and lower alphas have short duration and/or more pinpoint. Buffing IS LPL back to 11dmg, increasing clan erlaser durations, buffing agility on mechs that need it and making SRMs and some other currently underpowered weapons much better should create a nice meta IMO with different roles and counterplays.

They really need to look a little more mech by mech and ask what they specifically need to be good. Brawling mechs like the Atlas need high enough torso twist speed to spread laser alphas for example, while the Annihilator is better off like it is now with low agility and high armor because it can win the DPS race face to face with ballistics.

While a bit complex, that would the the most FUN way to balance mechs IMO, just making each one have that extra special something that it and only it did the best. For that reason I'm also fine with big quirks. The Dragon 5N is a blast to play with the supercharged UAC2s, deadside, freelook aiming under the torso technique and armor quirks. We need more mechs feeling special like that, not less.

Make the atlas a beastly brawler with good agility and with that also push the structure and crit resistance to where it's just competitive at that role. Give grid iron it's gauss repeater back. Let the Thunderbolt 9S be a PPC master, why not? Those mechs were a blast to play to be honest. As long as you find a good postion for the power level quirks are actually a really fun way of balancing.

Edited by Sjorpha, 16 February 2018 - 02:15 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Sjorpha, on 16 February 2018 - 02:05 AM, said:

We need more mechs feeling special....

Pretty much, though this is taking the hard way.

I don't agree with Khobai way of balancing 'mechs, weapons, and sides which makes everything samey.

[Khobai]

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I don't agree with Khobai way of balancing 'mechs, weapons, and sides which makes everything samey.

It needs to be more samey in order to be better balanced.

This game will never be sufficiently balanced with asymmetrical tech bases, lopsided superquirks, and ghost heat that treats clan and IS weapons completely inconsistently.

Im not advocating that we go to the opposite extreme of having shared tech though. Just that we even things out for IS at the fundamental level (like ISXL surviving side torso blowout and buffing ISDHS to true doubles). That way we can get rid of some the ridiculous IS superquirks so quirks can go back to being used properly.

Quirks should only be used for differentiating similar mechs and helping underpowered mechs. They shouldnt be used for Clan vs IS balance. Both Clans and IS should get roughly equal amounts of quirks on their mechs (with worse mechs getting more quirks); and even clan battlemechs should get some quirks. The way to get to that point is to balance both tech bases better at the fundamental level.


As for heavy gauss. The reason I dont like it being a short range PPFLD weapon is because I feel thats the role the AC20 should fill. And I would like to see the AC20 get buffed, but if you buff the AC20, it will become better than the heavy gauss. Which means the role of the heavy gauss needs to be expanded.

I feel theres a place for a strong PPFLD midrange poking weapon on the IS side. And thats a role the heavy gauss could step into if it used the improved heavy gauss profile instead. But it also makes sense because gauss weapons are supposed to be longer range weapons anyway (heavy gauss is the sole exception to that which was later corrected with the improved heavy gauss).

But yeah, its all about making the AC20 great again, without it having an overlapping role with the HGR.

Edited by Khobai, 16 February 2018 - 03:37 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Khobai, on 16 February 2018 - 03:08 AM, said:

It needs to be more samey in order to be better balanced.

This game will never be sufficiently balanced with asymmetrical tech bases, lopsided superquirks, and ghost heat that treats clan and IS weapons completely inconsistently.

...

As for heavy gauss. The reason I dont like it being a short range PPFLD weapon is because I feel thats the role the AC20 should fill. And I would like to see the AC20 get buffed, but if you buff the AC20, it will become better than the heavy gauss. Which means the role of the heavy gauss needs to be expanded.

I feel theres a place for a strong PPFLD midrange poking weapon on the IS side. And thats a role the heavy gauss could step into if it used the improved heavy gauss profile instead. But it also makes sense because gauss weapons are supposed to be longer range weapons.

Its all about making the AC20 great again without it overlapping with the HGR.

There's balance and there's gameplay. I'm not a competitive player so I'm less concerned about perfect parity (balance) and just want the game to be fun and varied while still being reasonably balanced.

As for AC/20 vs HGR, I can't test it out but AC/20 'mechs ideally should win in a brawl against HGR 'mechs by having faster RoF, instantaneous fire, and better mobility (unfortunately engine size doesn't influence agility anymore because AC/20 permits bigger sized engines and can be arm mounted). That dual AC/20 triggers GH and dual HGR 'mechs like the Anni can pack 6 additional medium-class lasers could pose a problem to the idea.

The HGR is in a perfect place right now as I want it to be. HGR 'mechs can deliver unrivaled pinpoint pain but they are short ranged and slow which creates interesting tactical situations in the battlefield.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 16 February 2018 - 03:54 AM.