52 replies to this topic

[LowSubmarino]

Before the skill tree the shadowhawk was a very agile, fast moving (torso movement, general agility), awesome little hunter. Very mobile.

I ran the shadowhawk a number of times since then.

Not cause its still as good though. More for nostalgic reasons.

Honestly.

My summoner even when i dont use any mobility kills at all (zero) is 5 times as agile (a heavy mech) as the shadowhawk with every last point poured into the mobility tree. Its super slow and sluggish. Damn.

The shadowhawks torso moves as fast as a slug that has died already and isnt moving at all anymore.

Its just not moving.

Its a garbage mech now.

Its soooo slow.

I used to love that mech.

You killed it.

ps - you gave it cooldown. Seriously. it doesnt need cooldown. It needs agility more than anything. Agilty, guys. Just give it agility.

Edited by oneda, 28 January 2018 - 01:04 AM.

[xe N on]

That is not just the Shadowhawk but all 50 / 55 ton medium mechs.

[FireStoat]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 28 January 2018 - 04:22 AM.
unconstructive

[LowSubmarino]

[Redacted]

@ Xenon

The uziel, shadowcat (omg the shadowcat) and many others are by comparions a thousand times as mobile.

The shadowhawk is just as slow as a slug. Way too slow. compared to how agile other mechs are its just not competitive anymore. The way it moves back to cover or turns its torso....damn. It feels soooo slow. Its just way too slow. Not even a bit. Not medarately too slow. Its way too slow. Make it at the very least twice as agile.

Then i might consider using it again. As of now, I wont touch it anymore.

Edited by draiocht, 28 January 2018 - 04:20 AM.
insult, unconstructive, replies removed

[An Innocent Urbie]

it is working as intended

[YueFei]

I just started playing a Shadowhawk-2D this month. My previous ride was almost exclusively the Hunchback-4SP, and that's my reference point for comparison.

The Shadowhawk seems to get cored out CT much more easily than the HBK-4SP. And that's the case even though the HBK-4SP I run uses Medium Lasers + SRMs, so the Lasers have a duration where I'm facing the enemy. The HBK-4SP tends to lose the side torsos first before dying.

In contrast, the Shadowhawk is equipped with AC20 + SRMs, so it's instantaneously fired, no duration. There's less facetime with the enemy using this loadout. Yet it gets CT cored quite a bit more compared to the HBK-4SP.

I've found that in order to compensate, I have to leg turn simultaneously with the torso twisting to help speed up the twisting, and I can't hesitate at all to do it. If in doubt, I'm better off just turning aside immediately (maybe without even shooting back) and presenting my shoulders, because if I delay for a split second, the Shadowhawk tends to collect the hits to the CT. Unlike mechs with protruding torsos, wiggling back and forth in a Shadowhawk does not displace the CT hitbox, so you have to be twisted near 90 degrees to occlude the CT in order to protect it. Damage does not tend to get distributed to the side torsos.

I imagine that any Shadowhawk build which runs lasers, or burst-firing ACs, or any loadout requiring significant facetime, would struggle a great deal with defending itself.

Are the hitboxes outlined here still accurate for the Shadowhawk:
http://mwomercs.com/...x-localization/
??

[Battlemaster56]

YueFei, on 28 January 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

I just started playing a Shadowhawk-2D this month. My previous ride was almost exclusively the Hunchback-4SP, and that's my reference point for comparison.

The Shadowhawk seems to get cored out CT much more easily than the HBK-4SP. And that's the case even though the HBK-4SP I run uses Medium Lasers + SRMs, so the Lasers have a duration where I'm facing the enemy. The HBK-4SP tends to lose the side torsos first before dying.

In contrast, the Shadowhawk is equipped with AC20 + SRMs, so it's instantaneously fired, no duration. There's less facetime with the enemy using this loadout. Yet it gets CT cored quite a bit more compared to the HBK-4SP.

I've found that in order to compensate, I have to leg turn simultaneously with the torso twisting to help speed up the twisting, and I can't hesitate at all to do it. If in doubt, I'm better off just turning aside immediately (maybe without even shooting back) and presenting my shoulders, because if I delay for a split second, the Shadowhawk tends to collect the hits to the CT. Unlike mechs with protruding torsos, wiggling back and forth in a Shadowhawk does not displace the CT hitbox, so you have to be twisted near 90 degrees to occlude the CT in order to protect it. Damage does not tend to get distributed to the side torsos.

I imagine that any Shadowhawk build which runs lasers, or burst-firing ACs, or any loadout requiring significant facetime, would struggle a great deal with defending itself.

Are the hitboxes outlined here still accurate for the Shadowhawk:
http://mwomercs.com/...x-localization/
??

The Shadhawk CT is rather large compare to it's ST's but I don't know it's agility personally for it to torso twist range and speed, but from fighting them they seem to twist enough to get the damage to their arms, I need to go check it out later whenever I have the chance.

[xe N on]

oneda, on 28 January 2018 - 01:31 AM, said:

The uziel, shadowcat (omg the shadowcat) and many others are by comparions a thousand times as mobile.

The shadowhawk is just as slow as a slug. Way too slow. compared to how agile other mechs are its just not competitive anymore. The way it moves back to cover or turns its torso....damn. It feels soooo slow. Its just way too slow. Not even a bit. Not medarately too slow. Its way too slow. Make it at the very least twice as agile.

Then i might consider using it again. As of now, I wont touch it anymore.

I would guess the SHD is as mobile as other 55 tons as GRF, KTO and WVR. Their mobility should be "normalized" [(c) 2017 by PGI], based on the former mobility with a 275 engine rating. But I'm not sure here and too lazy to log in to verify.

IMHO all medium mechs suffer from a mobility and speed problem. A 35 ton Jenner goes 139 kph with XL300. A 100 ton Atlas goes around 49 kph. A 55 ton mech schould go around 110 kph then. Instead it goes 88 kpH. I guess a similar situation when it comes to acceleration, turn and twist rates.

Edited by xe N on, 28 January 2018 - 04:50 AM.

[Mystere]

"Normalization" ---> "Generic Stompy Robot Arena Shooter"

It's the plan.

[xe N on]

Mystere, on 28 January 2018 - 05:18 AM, said:

"Normalization" ---> "Generic Stompy Robot Arena Shooter"

It's the plan.

The basic idea of normalization is not a bad thing, but the way carried out was a typical PGI failure.

Edited by xe N on, 28 January 2018 - 05:30 AM.

[Jonathan8883]

It's a bit outdated, but you want to see this post for agility comparisons:

https://mwomercs.com...eference-sheet/

[FupDup]

The Shadow Hawk could really use a larger twist radius as well as a general nudging of its baseline agility stats. It feels like wearing a straight jacket.


^The Shadow Hawk experience in a nutshell

There are literally some assaults that feel more responsive to pilot.

Edited by FupDup, 28 January 2018 - 06:28 AM.

[Mystere]

xe N on, on 28 January 2018 - 05:30 AM, said:

The basic idea of normalization is not a bad thing, but the way carried out was a typical PGI failure.

You say "failure". I say "intentional".

I offer the Timber Wolf as proof.

[JC Daxion]

have you tried adding some torso yaw/pitch and twist speed nodes? I've actually been playing this mech for the last couple months and using it in scouting and have had a pretty good time of it. No its not OP, but i don't see it as a poor performer in the least.

Add a couple JJ's and its fairly nimble.. for the record, i've only used it post skill tree so no Per-ST OP shadow hawk play to compare it to.. back in its glory days i was still romping them in my HBK

[Nameless King]

Sorry I would have to disagree, it is one of the best 55 ton mechs out there, I can consistantly pull in 500-1k+ scores and I also use it in scouting and win all the time.

Just got to know how to build and play them.

[Y E O N N E]

Yeah, all of the Shadowhawks seem incredibly stiff for their weight class.

I have all but two variants, and out of them I have only mastered the Grey Death (edit: and the 2K), which I just bought two days ago. It was a pretty awful grind, I ended up cheating and blowing some GXP into Operations just so I could start putting what I was earning into Mobility. If you aren't at least doing the minimum to maximize Speed Tweak and get the Anchor Turn and Torso Twist nodes along the way, it handles about as well as a Marauder. Which is fine for a Marauder, but not a Shadowhawk. And that's not an exaggeration; the turn rate on a Marauder is 50.42 degrees/sec, while the Shadowhawk is 52.71. The torso yaw range on a Marauder is 90 degrees, the Shadowhawk is 94.5 degrees. Dumping into mobility leaves you more fragile than the Mediums that come blessed with better mobility out of the box and can instead dump into Survival.

Even Storm Crows, which bring more firepower to the table and aren't considered an especially agile chassis these days, have a higher base turn rate than Shadow Hawks at 57.86 degrees/sec, with a torso yaw rate of 103.5 degrees/sec and a stupendous yaw angle of 130 degrees. Like, woah. They even have better accel/decel: 31.55/35 kph/s on the SCR vs.26.94/32.27 on the SHD. Small, but still more salt in the wound.

As has ever been the case, why is it that the SCR gets considerably better mobility than 'Mechs that are neither as durable nor as offensively potent as it? Shadowhawks, Blackjacks, Trebuchets? Even the Stormcrow is a bit too stiff in the legs for its own good, but at least it can turn its upper body in a reasonable manner.

And while we're at it, the arms get blown away so easily. Every match, I am spending half of it with only the right arm and the single Ultra Autocannon 20 (which jams every third attempt to double tap). While most Shadowhawks don't really use their arms, the Grey Death does. It needs them.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 28 January 2018 - 09:47 AM.

[Jonathan8883]

The Shadow Hawk likely has poor maneuverability because it has a high cockpit, high hardpoints, and jumpjets. In comparison, Stormcrow has to expose 2/3 of its surface area to see the enemy and shoot at them because it has such a low cockpit.

[Y E O N N E]

Jonathan8883, on 28 January 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

The Shadow Hawk likely has poor maneuverability because it has a high cockpit, high hardpoints, and jumpjets. In comparison, Stormcrow has to expose 2/3 of its surface area to see the enemy and shoot at them because it has such a low cockpit.

It's a little bit besides the point: the Storm Crow is and has been the better 'Mech regardless of any of those attributes.

And that doesn't explain why the Trebuchets have similarly terrible agility. Or even the Blackjacks, the least agile which have no jump jets at all.

[C E Dwyer]

xe N on, on 28 January 2018 - 05:30 AM, said:

The basic idea of normalization is not a bad thing, but the way carried out was a typical PGI failure.

Normalisation, is a very bad thing, it's why cars look basically the same, it's why aircraft look the same, it kills creativity, and makes life very grey and dull.

When used to balance a game it makes the game very dull and boring.

If making M.W.O a boring game that people, even the whales give up on, is what is being aimed for, then P.G.I are getting close to perfection.

Edited by Cathy, 28 January 2018 - 10:10 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

All normalization means is you have a standard you are comparing to. It doesn't mean you can't have wildly varying values, it just means that to get those there's going to be, ahem, some give and take elsewhere.

Normalization is good and necessary to make a fair game.