63 replies to this topic

[Neutron IX]

Just remembered the Timber Wolf champion mech just got rotated into the choices for Trial mechs.

It uses a build exactly along the lines of what is being described and could be a great way to test it a bit before you commit to it.

I'd take it into the testing grounds and experiment with weapons groups and heat management a bit, to see if you like how it feels, then try it out for a few drops.

Then if it clicks, you can mimic it a bit on your EBJ.

[Dragonporn]

If you like mixing up ballistics with lasers, I could suggest something like this:
ESPRIT DE CORPS

AC is rather tricky to use and has significant "bullet drop". LBX is sorta long range shotgun, but if you invest in skills, it lays shots pretty tight and super easy to use, never jams, cold as ice and hits like a truck, especially two of them.
I don't think it was good idea to get TCII, it certainly an overkill and designed for very specific builds. Pick it only if you really have spare tonnage (which you don't with Jag) and usually not more than TCI, which already provides decent bonuses.
Also check armor distribution, I don't know why people max head armor, i don't remember being killed by the headshot ever yet. And with that particular distribution, you can shield and sacrifice left arm, while having LPL as support weapon to peel at enemies in between LBX shots, also it makes poking easier when you stand in cover.

Brawler is all about positioning and momentum, you should never dive headlong where you suspect there could be 3+ enemy mechs and you're wide open. If push, try to shuffle with your teammates and generally pick targets that aren't facing you. With that build you can safely poke in the first phase of combat, and be a great cleanup later. Only try not to shoot LBX willy-nilly, make each shot count. I don't say that's the best build, but it definitely won't be boring, pretty beginner friendly and fun.

[Leone]

Cataphractos, on 22 February 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

EDIT: I use two weapon groups, left-mouse for whatever I consider the "primary weapons", and right-mouse for the "secondary weapons". I refuse to mount UACs, simply because of the jamming issue. Finally getting a target in your crosshairs, only to find you can't actually shoot it because you're still going through your un-jamming cycle, is immensely frustrating. My ultimate goal is to reduce frustration, not to increase it.

Okay, let's talk build considerations, using your build as an example. Everyone's already brought up the back armour, so I'll skip that. Weapon placement. Both lasers in the arms are nice for releasing armlock an goin' after fast lights or uavs n' such. Do you do that? If not, I'd suggest moving the left arm laser to the right torso so you can strip the armour offa that for a spare heatsink or ammo. Also gives you preference for shielding with the Ac torso, which is ammo based, and thus less of a loss later inna match.

Weaponry choice. I can completely understand your reasoning behind the AC rather'n the uac. My question is, does the ac finish firing fast enough for twisting? An Lbx paired with pulse lasers can get the damage out an twist pretty fast. If the ac keeps up with the pulse lasers, than it's fine. That build isn't the most damaging alpha wise, which means it's meant for more sustained engagements, or lotsa midrange flanking.

Food for thought.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 22 February 2018 - 03:01 PM.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Leone, on 22 February 2018 - 02:59 PM, said:

Okay, let's talk build considerations, using your build as an example. Everyone's already brought up the back armour, so I'll skip that. Weapon placement. Both lasers in the arms are nice for releasing armlock an goin' after fast lights or uavs n' such. Do you do that? If not, I'd suggest moving the left arm laser to the right torso so you can strip the armour offa that for a spare heatsink or ammo. Also gives you preference for shielding with the Ac torso, which is ammo based, and thus less of a loss later inna match.

Weaponry choice. I can completely understand your reasoning behind the AC rather'n the uac. My question is, does the ac finish firing fast enough for twisting? An Lbx paired with pulse lasers can get the damage out an twist pretty fast. If the ac keeps up with the pulse lasers, than it's fine. That build isn't the most damaging alpha wise, which means it's meant for more sustained engagements, or lotsa midrange flanking.

Food for thought.

~Leone.

AC-5s have the advantage as they are lighter than the UAC-5. The UAC-5 can supposedly pump out a little more damage. If given a choice I would take twin AC-5s and LLs. If enough space or tonnage was available a pair of MRM-10s or 20s would be great.

[Horseman]

Spare Parts Bin, on 23 February 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

AC-5s have the advantage as they are lighter than the UAC-5.

Nope, they do not. They serve different purposes: ACs are for sustained DPS, UACs are for high burst damage.
Arguably neither holds a true advantage, practically though UACs allow you to double-tap and focus on repositioning / torso twisting while ACs have you staring at the enemy for twice as long to deal the same damage.

Quote

The UAC-5 can supposedly pump out a little more damage.

That's an understatement - they can pump out 100% more damage in a salvo. AFAIK due to jams this averages out to something between 30% and 50% more - not bad for 1 ton extra.

[Peter2k]

personally, if you want to use ballistic, I would just use one of those 2 builds and have a go how it actually plays out

note the micro lasers are there to push the medium lasers into the upper pods
of course you can use them if you can handle 4 weapon groups effectively, or if that doesn't matter to you, you could strip them and the light BAP and use a TC1

Spoiler

I`d prefer twin U-AC10`s, even with no jam chance reduction skills they do a pretty solid job, unless you want to face your enemy down for a very long time
but that isn't a very good tactic anyway

being a brawler means your doing a lot of hit n run as well, you can't face tank an enemy in the open, you would get focused by too many enemies
you could do that at the end of a match when many enemies are already damaged

I even recorded the difference in the training grounds



note:
I do not even have U-AC jam chance reduction skilled in the tree

Spoiler

Spare Parts Bin, on 23 February 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

AC-5s have the advantage as they are lighter than the UAC-5. The UAC-5 can supposedly pump out a little more damage. If given a choice I would take twin AC-5s and LLs. If enough space or tonnage was available a pair of MRM-10s or 20s would be great.

there is very little reason to ever take an AC over an U-AC
- quirks is one, which is more a IS thing, but then there are also IS mechs with jam chance reduction as well (+skill tree)
- you really need the tonnage
- you cant boat 6 U-AC5`s, so you boat 6 AC-5`s

there is a case to be made about using clan AC2 in a Direwolf
boating 7 of them gives very good DPS, relative low heat (though ghost heat is a trouble there), very good projectile speed, and a lot of range
note over 1000m range and the heat gauge, but then your comitting to a slow mech in this case

Horseman, on 23 February 2018 - 11:42 PM, said:

due to jams this averages out to something between 30% and 50% more - not bad for 1 ton extra.

jams are not a reliable thing really, but in my experience, even without the skills, the jam isn't worth having a headache about
its not like you can actually know that on the third double tap they jam
usually the damage output is far greater than some players think

to top that off
many times when all your U-AC`s are jammed you need to cool off anyway, ie, its a good time to go behind a building or such

Dragonporn, on 22 February 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

I don't know why people max head armor

super easy
its not about precise hits, its more about random chance and glancing blows (think lasers with long burn time all going more or less center torso; some mechs have the cockpit where many players would try to aim by instinct, ie center-ish) +critical hits
some cockpits hitboxes are easier to hit on average than others, better players know to aim for the left Atlas eye given the chance for instance

Spoiler

and by stripping the armor on it you gain next to no tonnage, 1 ton might be useful, but you need to strip a good amount of armor points to gain 1 ton (especially if you happen to have ferro/light ferro)
players usually strip the legs by some amount and only strip a few points off the cockpit to round the free tonnage up to the full 1t

Edited by Peter2k, 24 February 2018 - 05:35 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

There's no such thing as a UAC jam chance reduction skill. Only quirks. The skills from the skilltree reduce jam time. Nothing more.

[Horseman]

Peter2k, on 24 February 2018 - 04:53 AM, said:

jams are not a reliable thing really, but in my experience, even without the skills, the jam isn't worth having a headache about
its not like you can actually know that on the third double tap they jam

My point exactly. High burst damage > low-volume sustained damage, even if both average to the same average DPS.

[Spare Parts Bin]

I plan on trying CUAC-2s on my Direwolf-UV for five games. Then seeing how I did. I already like Clan and IS UAC-5s.

[Peter2k]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 24 February 2018 - 06:06 AM, said:

There's no such thing as a UAC jam chance reduction skill. Only quirks. The skills from the skilltree reduce jam time. Nothing more.

mmm

sorry I forgot
there was
originally the node had jam chance reduction, but it basically did nothing
so PGI changed it with the new tech months ago

I stand corrected

old thread about it
https://mwomercs.com...o-jam-duration/

Edited by Peter2k, 25 February 2018 - 10:39 AM.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Peter2K happens to the best of us, seems like this game is changing quickly.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

I see, Peter2K, that was before my time, so i never knew it was different from what it is now.

Gute Jagd!

[Cataphractos]

Okay. I've finally remembered that anybody can hit with Streak SRMs, and that I need some kind of short-range weapon regardless of what role I'm trying to play. So based on that and some of the suggestions here, the new build looks like this.

https://mwo.smurfy-n...093145ef3f55564

I've kept the TC and added a BAP ("CAP"?), just because it won't let me add any more armor and I'm afraid to add a third Large Pulse Laser. Notice that I've got rid of the torso weapons entirely: my AC-10 worked fine, but it seemed to attract a lot of fire to that location. Also, I think my relatively high speed is tempting me into running forward with the scouts, when I should probably be standing around the LZ like the other Heavies and Assaults, just...waiting for the fight to start, I guess?

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Your streaks don't benefit from the TC3, am I right? 50 rounds per launcher seems a bit excessive to me, especially on such a slow weapon. Also, you have .51 ton free, why not add a light tag? It greatly improves your lock on time.
Also yes, you should stay with your bigger buddies. The Ebon Jag has not enough staying power on its own.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 26 February 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

Your streaks don't benefit from the TC3, am I right? 50 rounds per launcher seems a bit excessive to me, especially on such a slow weapon. Also, you have .51 ton free, why not add a light tag? It greatly improves your lock on time.
Also yes, you should stay with your bigger buddies. The Ebon Jag has not enough staying power on its own.

Ebon Jags are pretty tough but they are no Orions. No Mech or Omnimech lasts too long without support of others. I took on a damaged Direwolf a couple of days ago. I took out its right torso but it trashed me.

[Dragonporn]

Cataphractos, on 26 February 2018 - 07:35 PM, said:

Okay. I've finally remembered that anybody can hit with Streak SRMs, and that I need some kind of short-range weapon regardless of what role I'm trying to play. So based on that and some of the suggestions here, the new build looks like this.

https://mwo.smurfy-n...093145ef3f55564

I've kept the TC and added a BAP ("CAP"?), just because it won't let me add any more armor and I'm afraid to add a third Large Pulse Laser. Notice that I've got rid of the torso weapons entirely: my AC-10 worked fine, but it seemed to attract a lot of fire to that location. Also, I think my relatively high speed is tempting me into running forward with the scouts, when I should probably be standing around the LZ like the other Heavies and Assaults, just...waiting for the fight to start, I guess?

As folks above said, TC3 is useless for your build and picking this one is brutal overkill. I barely can think of a build which has enough spare tonnage and so specialized that can benefit from something more than TC1. Also, having 0.5 tonnage free is an absolute crime. This is a rule of thumb: plan your build for tonnage to be maxed in any case scenario, it is too invaluable to waste even 0.1 of it.

Now on streak-SRMs, BAP would be nice, I'd also shove at least light-TAG as guys above suggested, but with ~400 range, you would need to literally hug your opponent for damage. Two s-SRM4s would be literally toothpicks for anyone in terms of dps. You deal 8 damage for 3 heat, while both AC and LBX does 10 for 2 heat with MUCH superior range, and range is a king in this game. If you really want s-SRMs, you need as many of them as you can shove inside your mech, Artemis would be VERY helpful as well, and lots of ammo, BAP, light TAG (which I'm not sure you'll have tonnage for all of it) and play extremely aggressive brawler style which will be brutally punished every time you make smallest mistake with engagement timing or bad positioning, not to mention guys skilled in ECM will be delaying your locks which might leave you pants down.

Trying out different builds and see what works for you and what doesn't is important part of this game and generally - fun. But I'm just not sure this particular build will cut it for you, I'd go for something more manageable if I were you, but then again, in T5 much crazier builds worked for me sometimes.

[Cataphractos]

So we're all agreed that TCs are a "trap option", then?

Also, I've been assuming that Settings>Controller refers to joysticks...which I don't use, and have therefore ignored. Is this correct?

[Cataphractos]

Build as of this morning --

https://mwo.smurfy-n...0d8f2c5fdbf7303

I've added more heat sinks, and traded the two Large Pulse Lasers for one Large Pulse plus two Medium Pulse. This keeps the heat manageable on hot maps. I also threw out the TC, which leaves me with 3.5 tons (!) free. I honestly don't know what to do with that space, because mounting a weapon in the left torso apparently turns it into a fire-magnet, which is bad news for my mandatory XL engine.

[Horseman]

Cataphractos, on 28 February 2018 - 06:46 AM, said:

So we're all agreed that TCs are a "trap option", then?

Not exactly, but their usefulness depends on the build. If you've gone heavily into AC/UAC/lasers on your mech, then a TC can be helpful (+beam range, +bullet velocity).

[Leone]

Looks like you've room for three more double heat sinks. Four if you drop a tonne of ammo into a half tonne. Should make you nice an cool.

~Leone.