63 replies to this topic

[Nema Nabojiv]

Bombast, on 24 February 2018 - 06:31 PM, said:

(Even after PGI told everyone that was absolutely not happening)

Did they say why? Was it because of speed?

[Bud Crue]

Yosharian, on 24 February 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

The issue with this game has always been boating. Always.

This is an inherent problem with the game because you're taking a tabletop gaming system and turning it into a pinpoint aim FPS game.

Machineguns aren't the problem, boating is.

But if boating is the problem, then why does PGI now almost always address "OP' concerns by across the board weapons nerfs lke they did last December? No, the problem isn't boating, the problem is PGI's refusal to deal with it in a focused and specified variant by variant manner, and instead choosing broad brush weapon nerfs that leave the boater only a tiny bit weaker, while utterly ruining the use of a given weapon on every mech that can't boat it effectively. Its just so stupid.

[Bombast]

Nema Nabojiv, on 25 February 2018 - 03:22 AM, said:

Did they say why? Was it because of speed?

Pretty much. Supposedly the game can't handle it.

[N0ni]

CryEngine was the first mistake, frankencoding just overlapped the problem. Remember as a kid when you would tie your shoes in a knot twice for some weird reason and had to use a pencil or something thin and strong enough just to dig in and get it lose? That's what we have, but maybe knotted 5-10 times.

I wouldn't expect it to handle faster mech speed.

[Asym]

Oh gosh guys, the 4 of you above are correct.... Cryengine is way beyond its capabilities and the coding errors are compounding internally and we are seeing less and less precision and that makes gameplay sketchy and odd.... I can only imagine the cost of simple changes...... Broad changes cost a lot less and, strategically, since Solaris it the vision..................well, they have to make TTK longer to keep the "Rock-and-Sock'm-Robots" theme prominate.......a 22 second match isn't going to appease the "stompy robot killers" that make up a majority of the player base, nor pay trhe mech pack sales requirements (the team, roles, and tactics pilots all left !!!! Many, because they saw where PGI was going and is almost there........)

Sadly, it's where we are; and, the meta, boating and gameplay hacks will only get worse to appease the stomp robot killers and improve sales as people buy to chase a better way to blow crap up. Especially now, that they don't have to worry about team mates, objectives, tactics or just about anything else....

[InspectorG]

Bud Crue, on 25 February 2018 - 03:36 AM, said:

But if boating is the problem, then why does PGI now almost always address "OP' concerns by across the board weapons nerfs lke they did last December? No, the problem isn't boating, the problem is PGI's refusal to deal with it in a focused and specified variant by variant manner, and instead choosing broad brush weapon nerfs that leave the boater only a tiny bit weaker, while utterly ruining the use of a given weapon on every mech that can't boat it effectively. Its just so stupid.

Simple fix to boating is already here: limit what can be grouped, put a hard 1 second between the firing of groups.

Cant 3+ Gauss anymore. Problem addressed.

If only it could fit on a spreadsheet........

[Gristle Missile]

MGs can't be good against armor AND structure.
I would like to see damage reduced against armor and/or increase to equipment health across the board.

But the easiest fix is probably a diminishing return on crit chances the more MGs you have.

I don't think anyone wants to see a jam or ghost heat mechanic

Edited by Gristle Missile, 26 February 2018 - 10:00 AM.

[ANOM O MECH]

I'd like to see crit chances removed if you have more than six of them or so.

No ghost heat or anything frustrating like that.

Just make them level for mechs that can't take tons of them, but still have use.

12 of them on a Piranha does enough damage to not need the added bonus of crits.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Gristle Missile, on 25 February 2018 - 09:30 AM, said:

MGs can't be good against armor AND structure.
I would like to see damage reduced by half against armor OR increase to component health across the board.

Nerfing MGs across the board because just a couple mechs can boat a stupid number of them is the type of mistake PGI needs to stop making.

[Gristle Missile]

LT. HARDCASE, on 25 February 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

Nerfing MGs across the board because just a couple mechs can boat a stupid number of them is the type of mistake PGI needs to stop making.

Well, lets be honest...4 or less MGs do piddly damage to armor anyways (unless HMG)
The tonnage to DPS is insanely high for MGs anyways. MG boats can strip armor easily while face tanking...what could possibly fix that?

Ghost heat or Jams? Those are worse.
Crit reduction? Doesn't matter against armor.
Diminishing returns? Too confusing

I suppose they could put a hard limit on the number of weapons of one type you can boat...but I don't like build limitations either.

I don't like the idea of nerfing them all either, but there has to be some changes to give them a better defined role - That way they can be buffed in other ways.
The MG tooltip says its supposed to be bad against armor but good on exposed structure soooo *shrug*

Edited by Gristle Missile, 25 February 2018 - 01:33 PM.

[Havyek]

Increase the heat MGs cause or a mechanic similar to flamers

I'm not a fan of ghost heat, but looking at it logically, machine guns cause heat when fired. They fire incredibly quickly and should need some type of cool down to prevent jamming up.
It needs to be a number where 4 of them aren't affected, 6 maybe a bit, and 12 incredibly so.

[Y E O N N E]

So many terrible ideas in here that might fix the PIR but would murder the utility of every other MG-toting 'Mech.

I mean, think about it for a second; are Blackjack Arrows and Shadow Cats with MGs really killing it right now? No. They aren't. They are even running pretty toasty, especially the Arrow. You want to global nerf MGs, then you are hitting 'Mechs which depend on them and are already underperforming with them, just so you can get at the one, maybe two 'Mechs that are doing absolutely stupid things with them.

And for the record, I don't think the MLX is over-performing. It runs at 122 kph after speed tweak and can't back-line like the PIR and ACH can because it can't retreat fast enough; it's got most of its weapons in really squishy arms, unlike the PIR, making it easy to disarm. It's capable, but it takes considerably more work to get into the damage range of the PIR.

IMHO, the issue is crits. It's not fun having your guns evaporate and being so quickly stripped makes it kinda pointless to still be alive. Slap down the crit rolls, and you also slap down the doubled up damage to structure, so now your PIR won't be doing 12 DPS to armor and 24 DPS to structure. Now you survive more than 4 seconds in a Dire Wolf getting shot in the arse. Otherwise? The damage output on MGs is fine. Actually under-performing for the IS versions, only 'Mechs worth running MGs on at all for IS are the Ember (25% RoF quirk with HMGs) and Arrow (minimum quantity and 10% RoF quirk), and even then they don't compare to the Clan boats.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Replace piranhas with Fire Moth any other 20 tonner! World of Tanks does this all the time.

TBH I dont think piranha is that much of a problem to begin with. You shoot it, it dies. Not like some other inferior, nerfed-to the-ground, plzbuff, IS lights.

[Yosharian]

Der Geisterbaer, on 25 February 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

That's the kind of argument you get when people actually haven't done their homework. Boating of specific weaponry in the TT creates pretty much the same picture despite the random damage distribution instead of "pin point accuracy" (which doesn't actually exist for machine guns in MWO due to spread mechanics): As long as you're not trying to declare a wide open terrain as the default map in TT 3ML generally perform better than 1LL ... and in small fast mechs 6SL will overall show better performance than 3ML. And just for the record: A single 12 mg Piranha is just as annoying and dangerous to big targets in TT as it is here should its player keep winning initiative. And since TT games are commonly played with BV a single heavy or assault mech can easily be pitched against 2 or 3 of them.

No, you're wrong.

It's not that boating is weak in TT, it's that not boating is weak in MWO.

In MWO, boating allows you to aim in exactly the same way with all your weapon systems.

If you have several diverse weapon systems, you have to alter your trajectory calculations, hold your target for missiles, etc etc, basically alter your play in a way that TT mechs simply do not have to do.

A tabletop mech can utilize several different weapon systems as efficiently as it can utilize one boated weapon system (not talking about range, obviously so don't start attacking that strawman). An MWO player cannot do this.

That's why people boat in MWO: because it's easier.

[yodookie]

Sooo, why not reduce the damage that MGs do to armor and cap the amount of crits you can get within a certain amount of time with MGs? That way you don't unfavorably nerf other mechs that are performing on par with MGs and still get the results that are needed with the MG boats.

[Y E O N N E]

yodookie, on 25 February 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

Sooo, why not reduce the damage that MGs do to armor and cap the amount of crits you can get within a certain amount of time with MGs? That way you don't unfavorably nerf other mechs that are performing on par with MGs and still get the results that are needed with the MG boats.

Because the damage against armor is exactly what those on-par-or-worse 'Mechs are relying on.

There is a very good reason I do not put LMGs on my Arrow.

[Chortles]

If I recall correctly, PGI buffed machine guns a few months back and then proceeded to release the Arctic Cheetah and Mist Lynx with plenty of ballistic hardpoints. The buff changed the machine guns from spread to pinpoint. Now, the Pirahna gets the benefit of the previous buff that was suited for mechs that did not have as much hardpoints. Perhaps they can revert the base machine guns back to the old version and give machine gun spread quirks to the less fortunate mechs.

[Y E O N N E]

They've already nerfed the spread on the Clan MGs since the release of the MLX-G and ACH-E. They've even nerfed the crit rolls, just not enough.

[Chortles]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 February 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

They've already nerfed the spread on the Clan MGs since the release of the MLX-G and ACH-E. They've even nerfed the crit rolls, just not enough.

Have they? I never realized.

[Bohxim]

Chortles, iirc the spread was nerfed by 0.5m for clan mgs.
But hitscan is still pretty nice to have on the mgs.

Think the piranha is fine where it is. It loses something when someone sneezes on it and it only carries like 4.5 tonnes of mg ammo with 12 lmg/mg. That's barely 3 minutes of fighting. 1 of the reasons I kept a medium laser on. At least I can nibble when my ammo runs dry