63 replies to this topic

[Makoto of Glie]

Basic Message: If you're a newer / inexperienced player and can't yet regularly hit 1000 damage in FP, it's highly advisable to stick to QP for a while, gain experience (actual and skill-tree related), and experiment in the mechlab to find builds that suit your style. Hop factions and earn the Rank 2 Mechbay rewards if you'd still like to try it; Rank 6 is too much of a grind without premium / bigger scores.

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I did a little experiment recently.

I'm a longtime FP player. I know the struggles of starting off fresh; I'm 100% F2P, so I've had to earn all my mechbays through FP and events. When I first started playing this mode, I had to make due with whatever mechs I could get. One of my main picks was a LRM orion, no backup weapons. Ouch.

Anyway, I wanted to recreate that experience for a bit. So, I decided to play a few matches with the only mechs available to newbies: Trials.

This is the Clan trial deck I used, intentionally made as bad as possible:

Adder, 5 ERMLs: A substandard light. 35 tons gives you an okay alpha, but low speed, standard burn time and a CT like a bullseye make this easy to take down.
Nova, 6 ERMLs: A decent medium. 50 tons, usually must poptart for a full alpha, but corner peeking works fine. Fragile and pretty hot, though.
Hunchback, 2 UAC10s 2 ERMLs: Best mech in the deck, honestly. Good sustained fire, good alpha. Requires experience w/ fire control to prevent jams. Dropping this in the middle of the match and trading well can easily net you 700-1000 damage.
Dire Wolf, 2 Gauss 2 LPLs 3 ERMLs: Ugh. It's got a big alpha, sure, but huge mobility, heat, and hitbox issues. Only 600 optimal range, too. ERMLs are useless outside alpha. A 100 ton punching bag at best.

Disclaimers: I always dropped solo. Obviously, there are groups in these matches, but I'm not with them or on TS. Also, I always dropped the Hunchback last, usually into a drop zone siege. Frankly, it's too good for this deck, and I only used it to hit weight limit and not gimp myself even more (or rely on EBJS and HBRs).

Results:






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Now, I'm not a good player by any means. I'd consider myself a bit above average: I can aim, I can prioritize targets / components, I generally don't die immediately after dropping. Yet, even with this terrible trial deck and my average skill, I'm averaging 975 damage. And that's with one match in Conquest on Polar, with few engagements. Even with a heavy alpha deck and literally suicide-bombing the enemy, 4+ mechs to 1, I'm sure I could get in 250 damage per mech.

If you're struggling to do this much damage per match, FP is (generally) a bad idea to commit to. QP is much more forgiving in terms of tier ranking, unleveled / fun mech builds, and lack of coordinated groups. Rewards will generally be better for the amount of time spent, too. Learning the game, mech builds, tactics / positioning, optimal ranges, winning trades, heat management, team coordination: all of these are more important than the rewards from FP.

I know many players get frustrated with this mode, because it is, inherently, unbalanced. My advice is to steer clear of it until you're confident you can do at least this amount of damage with a fully customized / leveled deck. Otherwise, you're probably burn out on it easily. Getting slaughtered over and over without even knowing *why* gets old quick.

(Just wanted to verify that 1000 damage standard everyone talks about. Yes, it pretty much is the floor for acceptable performance in FP.)

[justcallme A S H]

Hiding behind and alt account, for what purpose? To Smurf to see if it could be done?.

Anyway without needing to hide behind an alt - quite often the builds people have are worse than the trials. Look at my FP training thread, which actually covers useful information (which this thread doesn't), and you will see how prolific the mistakes are in the mechlab. Far worse than trial builds.

People can bring great builds but if they don't understand positioning, battle awareness they won't get 1000 damage. How do I know? I was that guy in early 2016.


And no the HBK is not the best trial mech out there. It's actually one of the worst due to facetime and UAC useless in pairs on a glass mech that is only really suitable for peaking/poptarting.

[justcallme A S H]

Furthermore I will take someone that does 600 dmg vs 1200 dmg over 4 mechs if the 600dmg person follows calls if the 1200dmg player does not.

Why? Cause the overall aim/plan is easier to achieve with a team working as a team and not farming damage or trying to prove a point.

I mean I've done 1700dmg+ in trial decks regularly. But so what? If I didn't move with the team and we ended up losing it would be for nothing at the end of the day. Sometimes someone will do very low numbers but if it's for the greater good (and not just running in YOLO) then it's totally fine.

While 1000dmg is a good aim, it all depends on the situation at hand and also what you are up against.

[Bishop Six]

Damage isn't a factor if you are good or played well.

Example 1: Leading all 4 pushes in attack siege mode=less damage

Example 2: FP Conquest capping all the time=less damage

Example 3: 12 men Heavy Gauss premade= less damage


Much damage but bad:

Example 1: Poking from behind using teammates as meatshield while they brawl

Example 2: "support-mech" lurming

Example 3: Spamming arties

[Deathlike]

1000 of LRM damage is really unimpressive. You'd have to do at least double that to have meaning in MWO.

Better that damage be dealt with direct fire, particularly if it was accurate and consistent, which is rarely seen by new players.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 February 2018 - 05:26 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Bishop Six, on 09 February 2018 - 02:56 AM, said:

Example 1: Poking from behind using teammates as meatshield while they brawl

I have problems with this one. I find if I go out and try to brawl, I often do decently well, but just as often I get my *** handed to me and do like 200-300 dmg per mech. While this hits the 1000 damage the OP is talking about, 1000 damage really is a floor, not an indicator of a good player.

So what normally happens is the drop caller calls for a push. I usually am first or nearly first in, so I take a lot of hits, then before I get cored out or something I take cover (usually advance into nearest cover, not backing up into advancing teammates) and poke at the enemy while the rest of my team goes out and brawls. I *think* I'm sharing armor, because I am almost never fresh by this point. However, when I hear the drop caller repeatedly yelling "PUSH" and I'm just poking at the enemy because I'm already seriously hit, I kinda wonder if I'm being a potato. I could go out and immediately die, but would that really help if I've already taken a few hits? I'm not going to do much other than take a shot or two before I go down. While if I stay back, I can cover the fresher guys moving up.

*edit - It also probably doesn't help that I generally do not play SRM mechs. I favor ballistics and lasers, though recently I started using MRM's and I really like them. None of my mechs are very "brawl" oriented. The exception is my assault deck for gate pushes where I gotta push PAST the enemy and get right in their face, that one has some brawling Victors in it.

Edited by Eisenhorne, 09 February 2018 - 06:18 AM.

[C H E E K I E Z]

Being the first mech through the gate, or the first mech into the push is honestly the hardest position to play from, and people don't understand the concept of a true push. Just because a push was called, does not mean you just yolo yourself straight into an enemy fire line, and die 1 at a time. When im drop calling or leading a push i will always be first, but i can gaurentee you ill still do 2k+ even as the first mech through the gate, and Pat Kell can verify this as well.

Don't just yolo in and die after shooting twice, Push in the gate, give up your arms/dead side, and shoot once or twice, and find cover, anything, a small hill, a piller, you rotate out. Just because you yolo'ed in first and took a shot and died, does not mean you helped your team. Ok you took a shot from 1 person, and you maybe did 70-100 dmg to someone. But guess what, your dead, your not doing any damage, and its now 11v12, If you filter behind someone else, after you took that big first initial smack, you will be down to 70% ish, let 2-3 other mechs that are 100% infront of you, that way if the enemy fire line called just burn alpha, in the orion, now all of a sudden they cant find you, their drop called has to call a new mech, which means people have to press R multiple times to find that new mech, which is more brawling time for your 11 fresh mechs, then all of a sudden you pop up, now people are splitting their fire, and ontop of that there are 10 more fresh mechs running at them.

TLDR: Dont brainless zombie push in and die, then complain oh i died first i was first in. It's what bad players say to cover up the fact they cant put up those big numbers. If your first in the gate you have the best shots, the entire pick of the litter, you should do the most dmg.

[Bishop Six]

Eisenhorne, on 09 February 2018 - 05:56 AM, said:

I have problems with this one. I find if I go out and try to brawl, I often do decently well, but just as often I get my *** handed to me and do like 200-300 dmg per mech. While this hits the 1000 damage the OP is talking about, 1000 damage really is a floor, not an indicator of a good player.

So what normally happens is the drop caller calls for a push. I usually am first or nearly first in, so I take a lot of hits, then before I get cored out or something I take cover (usually advance into nearest cover, not backing up into advancing teammates) and poke at the enemy while the rest of my team goes out and brawls. I *think* I'm sharing armor, because I am almost never fresh by this point. However, when I hear the drop caller repeatedly yelling "PUSH" and I'm just poking at the enemy because I'm already seriously hit, I kinda wonder if I'm being a potato. I could go out and immediately die, but would that really help if I've already taken a few hits? I'm not going to do much other than take a shot or two before I go down. While if I stay back, I can cover the fresher guys moving up.

*edit - It also probably doesn't help that I generally do not play SRM mechs. I favor ballistics and lasers, though recently I started using MRM's and I really like them. None of my mechs are very "brawl" oriented. The exception is my assault deck for gate pushes where I gotta push PAST the enemy and get right in their face, that one has some brawling Victors in it.

I would do it like you, but depends on the situation. If you got crit after few seconds because of no twisting or similar mistakes, then this is not very useful. If you go into second line or cover after making a good amount of damage, thats totally fine.

But there are players who even not try to group up with the team, doing their sniping thing and let the teammates die 1000 m away, while they still have the 1st mech in the 4th wave. I hope you know what i mean.

C H E E K I E Z, on 09 February 2018 - 06:15 AM, said:

TLDR: Dont brainless zombie push in and die, then complain oh i died first i was first in. It's what bad players say to cover up the fact they cant put up those big numbers. If your first in the gate you have the best shots, the entire pick of the litter, you should do the most dmg.

You are right, sometimes i still do this mistake and fight to the end and thats can be more expensive for the team than going back into 2nd line. Usually i rarely do below 1500 damage and 4-6 KMD minimum, no matter what mode (except conquest) or win or loss. Also i have W/L ratio of 2.25, for me as casual loyalist thats totally fine.

The mech rotation during a push is very smart and we try to practise this. Still i think it is a good example why you can be a good player/drop leader and not doing 1000 damage in a single match. Sure, a good player always have to do a certain amount of damage, but thats only 1 of 10 points for the definition "good" imo.

Edit:
Forgot to say, i recognized that clan pushes have another character than the pushes we are doing with our unit. Perhaps within our own language we have other terms for these things ("make pressure aggressively").

Edited by Bishop Six, 09 February 2018 - 06:55 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Bishop Six, on 09 February 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

But there are players who even not try to group up with the team, doing their sniping thing and let the teammates die 1000 m away, while they still have the 1st mech in the 4th wave. I hope you know what i mean.

I've seen that in quick play, but not in faction play. Probably helps I rarely drop in PUG queue for FP. Yes, I understand that would be extremely annoying.

[UnKnownPlayer]

Eisenhorne, on 09 February 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

I've seen that in quick play, but not in faction play. Probably helps I rarely drop in PUG queue for FP. Yes, I understand that would be extremely annoying.

There are some players that do this regularly, you might not notice it during the fights (because you are in the front and they are in the back) but you WILL notice it when the drop zone is being camped and they have 2 mechs left and everyone else is dead.

Yeah they did 2-3k dmg but you still lost because they didnt share armour, couldnt apply that damage quickly enough in a brawl to drop mechs in time to save their friends etc.

[Xannatharr]

C H E E K I E Z, on 09 February 2018 - 06:15 AM, said:

Being the first mech through the gate, or the first mech into the push is honestly the hardest position to play from, and people don't understand the concept of a true push. Just because a push was called, does not mean you just yolo yourself straight into an enemy fire line, and die 1 at a time. When im drop calling or leading a push i will always be first, but i can gaurentee you ill still do 2k+ even as the first mech through the gate, and Pat Kell can verify this as well.

Don't just yolo in and die after shooting twice, Push in the gate, give up your arms/dead side, and shoot once or twice, and find cover, anything, a small hill, a piller, you rotate out. Just because you yolo'ed in first and took a shot and died, does not mean you helped your team. Ok you took a shot from 1 person, and you maybe did 70-100 dmg to someone. But guess what, your dead, your not doing any damage, and its now 11v12, If you filter behind someone else, after you took that big first initial smack, you will be down to 70% ish, let 2-3 other mechs that are 100% infront of you, that way if the enemy fire line called just burn alpha, in the orion, now all of a sudden they cant find you, their drop called has to call a new mech, which means people have to press R multiple times to find that new mech, which is more brawling time for your 11 fresh mechs, then all of a sudden you pop up, now people are splitting their fire, and ontop of that there are 10 more fresh mechs running at them.

TLDR: Dont brainless zombie push in and die, then complain oh i died first i was first in. It's what bad players say to cover up the fact they cant put up those big numbers. If your first in the gate you have the best shots, the entire pick of the litter, you should do the most dmg.

Cheekiez, do you have an online store where I can buy framed, signed copies of this? I'm thinking $50 each would be about right.

This hits directly on something that I need to work on as a DC and my pilots need to work on individually as well.

Xann

[Makoto of Glie]

justcallme A S H, on 08 February 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

Hiding behind and alt account, for what purpose? To Smurf to see if it could be done?.

Anyway without needing to hide behind an alt - quite often the builds people have are worse than the trials. Look at my FP training thread, which actually covers useful information (which this thread doesn't), and you will see how prolific the mistakes are in the mechlab. Far worse than trial builds.

People can bring great builds but if they don't understand positioning, battle awareness they won't get 1000 damage. How do I know? I was that guy in early 2016.


And no the HBK is not the best trial mech out there. It's actually one of the worst due to facetime and UAC useless in pairs on a glass mech that is only really suitable for peaking/poptarting.

Not really. I'm not posting with my actual name because I never do (zero forum posts), and because it's inevitable that someone will take this thread as a: "Well, I can do it, why can't you?" line of thinking. It's more of a "FP isn't really worth it unless you've learned the basics already." The importance of tactics even without a kitted-out drop deck. I used all trials to try to highlight that.

I guess I'm advocating against FP for complete beginners, too. I'd argue that QP is more dynamic than FP, even considering the 'QP modes', because you'll always have a wide range of mech types to deal with at once, and you'll never get into a drop zone pin situation. Also, even if you die early, you can switch to another game without having 4 mechs locked up. That's pretty important for new players without many mechs to choose from. QP is just a better learning experience, even when it comes to coordination and positioning, as you mentioned.

Also, I meant the HBK was the best trial in this particular deck; I intentionally picked the worst ones I could without gimping myself further on weight. Obviously, the Ebon and Hellbringer are better, but you can still get a decent amount of damage in with this one. The jamming is a deathtrap for someone not familiar with UACs, though, and yeah, the armor is paper thin.

Bishop Six, on 09 February 2018 - 02:56 AM, said:

Much damage but bad: Example 1: Poking from behind using teammates as meatshield while they brawl Example 2: "support-mech" lurming Example 3: Spamming arties

.

Have to disagree with 1 and 3. If you're flanking (not hiding) with mid/long range, and that brawling teammate manages to turn your opponent around, an alpha that cores out a rear CT is worth much more than taking a hit or two for him. Most players worth their salt would focus on killing the damaged enemy (brawler) anyway. And arties are stupidly effective on deathballs / gen blockades, otherwise no one would use them. Yes, airs are better and both are a C-bill wash.

Deathlike, on 09 February 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

1000 of LRM damage is really unimpressive. You'd have to do at least double that to have meaning in MWO.

Better that damage be dealt with direct fire, particularly if it was accurate and consistent, which is rarely seen by new players.

MWO doesn't hand out rewards for clever maneuvering and pinpoint shots that blow out a Heavy Gauss or leg during a gen rush. Yes, these win matches. Yep, they're of the utmost importance if you're playing seriously / competitively. But if you're just starting out, you won't even know that these tactics are important, much less how to execute them effectively in a trial mech that plays like a microwave with boosters and legs.

If that beginner can do double the damage using LRMs than direct fire, I'd actually encourage him to use LRMs. Why? Because he can get the rank 2 mechbay rewards faster, buy more mechs, and start exploring build options that don't rely on indirect fire. Without those additional mechs, his deck will be patched together using whatever's available, and he'll try to learn using suboptimal builds, get smashed by veteran players, and (in more cases than not) get frustrated and not bother to come back.

That's why I highlighted 1000 as an acceptable score. If you can do this damage consistently as a newbie, good, you're contributing and making progress for yourself. If not, though, FP's kind of a waste of time; the rewards aren't worth the grind you'll experience, and you're better off coming back to it a bit later.

[Deathlike]

Makoto of Glie, on 09 February 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

MWO doesn't hand out rewards for clever maneuvering and pinpoint shots that blow out a Heavy Gauss or leg during a gen rush. Yes, these win matches. Yep, they're of the utmost importance if you're playing seriously / competitively. But if you're just starting out, you won't even know that these tactics are important, much less how to execute them effectively in a trial mech that plays like a microwave with boosters and legs.

Basic tactics/concepts like "shooting the same target together" does not require super amounts of skill though. It requires teamwork. Skill takes time. Basic stuff like this is only something people should naturally be doing. Otherwise, you're going to have a bad time, period.

Quote

If that beginner can do double the damage using LRMs than direct fire, I'd actually encourage him to use LRMs. Why? Because he can get the rank 2 mechbay rewards faster, buy more mechs, and start exploring build options that don't rely on indirect fire. Without those additional mechs, his deck will be patched together using whatever's available, and he'll try to learn using suboptimal builds, get smashed by veteran players, and (in more cases than not) get frustrated and not bother to come back.

The problem with LRMs is mainly that those people don't understand how to maximize their LRM damage, but it also brings with bad habits and natural inconsistencies with LRM behavior. It's bad enough seeing people fire LRMs well become "effective range"... and when I mean effective range, it is not anywhere close to 1000m as it is closer to ~400 to 500m range (midrange) to be more productive. That's assuming the firing location isn't going to be blocked by terrain, which I see enough bad LRM users fire into frequently. All in all, training for a bad weapon subsystem will only get them to complain that "every other weapon is OP".... and that's not productive.

Quote

That's why I highlighted 1000 as an acceptable score. If you can do this damage consistently as a newbie, good, you're contributing and making progress for yourself. If not, though, FP's kind of a waste of time; the rewards aren't worth the grind you'll experience, and you're better off coming back to it a bit later.

I qualify the # only because it's how you deal it that matters more. LRMs are not that weapon in the general sense because the quality of the weapon is its downfall.

[LordNothing]

i think i set my bar a little higher at 1200. that seems to be the bare minimum to be competitive, or rather to not be dead weight. 1000 is a good place to start. doing less than that, check your builds and work on your gunnery.

that said, there is no way to train for fp in the game other than to play fp (excluding the handful of units that do train new players). you pretty much have to drop a lot and learn the ropes the hard way and that means a lot of bad games. qp is not a valid fp training arena. the builds and tactics you find there are not representative of the builds and tactics that work in fp.

Edited by LordNothing, 10 February 2018 - 09:58 PM.

[Kubernetes]

It’s difficult to gauge effectiveness purely from damage numbers these days. My MRM100 Cyclops -Q can easily put out 1200-1500 damage in a first wave, whereas my dual HGauss Sleipnir usually gets around 800-1000. Is the MRM platform so much more effective? No, it’s probably less so. The Sleipnir is putting all its damage into CT. On the Clan side I see people racking up big numbers with ATMs—and not really doing much work. You should take into account how players are getting their damage. A PPFLD deck may not pump out the raw numbers, but it’s more effective at actually killing.

[PocketYoda]

I got a 1000 damage in mad cat, its the only time i've ever made 1000 damage and it was an escort mission we won.. That said mad cats are way too over powered (like most clan stuff) and well i don't feel 1000 damage means anything..

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

I take new people all the time to faction warfare.
They gotta learn sometime so why not throw them directly into the fray, and from there discuss their decks and slowly get some movement discipline stamped into them.

[Leone]

Eisenhorne, on 09 February 2018 - 05:56 AM, said:

So what normally happens is the drop caller calls for a push. I usually am first or nearly first in, so I take a lot of hits, then before I get cored out or something I take cover (usually advance into nearest cover, not backing up into advancing teammates) and poke at the enemy while the rest of my team goes out and brawls. I *think* I'm sharing armor, because I am almost never fresh by this point. However, when I hear the drop caller repeatedly yelling "PUSH" and I'm just poking at the enemy because I'm already seriously hit, I kinda wonder if I'm being a potato.

Naw. There're ten other folk on your team aside from you and the Drop Caller. Chances are, if you're in first and already hurting, they're not talking to you anymore. You did your part. Now, if you're still unsure, hit 'q' or whatever you've bound show %s to. If you've more health left than your teammates infront of ya, then it's time to rotate back to the front.

But this, this thing you speak of, where the first mech in peels off to draw fire and then take cover while another mech takes point to eventually do the same thing? This is called teamwork, and it's what we in Kell's Commandos try to do all the time.

Good on ya.

~Leone.

[Willard Phule]

1000 damage is setting the bar kinda high, don't you think? Some of these guys struggle to get 300 with all 4 mechs. That and they're in some sort of competition to see who can run out of mechs first. Some potatoes simply can't be carried.

[justcallme A S H]

1,000 damage is the "accepted" number but I can tell you many games I've dealt less than 1,000dmg if I am at the front of a brawl push and rotate out, losing a torso or something and sometimes getting stuck on a rock (Vitric for example)... Sometimes you just cannot recover missing a pile of weapons along with getting stuck and you're set for a sub 1k game.

That said when you 12-3 first wave the sacrifice was worth it.