24 replies to this topic

[Nesutizale]

With the announcement of Solaris 7 I started to play 1v1 matches with a friend and it made me thinking and I got some questions where I would like to know what you think.

1) Will S7 develop its own meta gameplay?
To me its a clear yes. Fights so far have mostly become a brawl in a short time. Beeing shorter, in range and time invested and much more unforgiving.

2) How should PGI handle the balance of mechs in leagues?
The general idea of a balance by "meta" is a good idea to keep mechs of comparable capabilitys in one group BUT the system has to be flexible enough to move mechs from one group to another each season. That way the groups should balance as fast as possible while still give people a chance to adapt to the new group their mech may end up in, in the next season.

3) Should PGI take the S7 performance of a mech into concideration when balanceing mechs?
I think not. Balance/quirk mechs so that they performe well in QP/FW but in S7 you balance them by moveing them into different groups.
There are two reasons for this. First of I found mechs that performe quite bad in QP to work surprisingly well in 1v1 matches.
The other reason is that with the different gameplay in 1v1 compared to QP/FW you will end up with a mess that is unbalanceable.

4) Should there be a stock league?
I think that could be fun but might end up with to much trouble as we have to few players, most likely, to fill up even more wait queues.

5) Hardpoints still importend?
I think hardpoints are a bit less importend then in QP/FW. As sayed before, from my experiance most matches end in a brawl where high hardpoints where even a problem as I couldn't aim at the legs of my enemy or target a side torso as easly as with arm weapons.

6) Will we see more mechs that are not in the current meta?
I hope so. I have mechs that underperforme in QP but had lots of fun with in 1v1 and I think PGI would do good to even enforce that. Breathing back life into some mechs that are just collecting dust would be good for the game.


So what do you think about these points?

[Xetelian]

Yes it will have its own meta.

PGI said they would be putting mechs in a tiers that represent how powerful they are and that match making would take this into account.

S7 performance should be a much smaller consideration than QP when considering balance, some mechs are just going to be very broken at 1v1 but don't deserve a huge nerf in QP.


Maybe a stock event but no there shouldn't be a stock league. As much as people want it, there are plenty that don't and the queues are already being divided up into 4 pieces already.


Not sure what you mean exactly, I think hardpoints will always be important but with a different meta surrounding them. You wont be hill peeking as much I imagine so high torso mounts may not be as desirable as they are in QP.


I don't 1v1 much so I am not sure what mechs perform better in 1v1 than they do in QP or FW. Maybe something like the AS7 S, which isn't doing well at all in QP would do better in 1v1 if things become a brawl more often. High alphas that rely on cool shots and time to hide might not do well in Solaris if the enemy is fast enough to keep up and can twist the damage around and they wont have the cool shots.

[JohnnyWayne]

I wonder if you can level up mech-tiers so that everyone will end up in the same mech tier and you will never leave these potatofaced Lurm slinging window lickers behind, just like in QP.

[Asym]

Solaris is just a new extension of MWO. The people who seriously play video games will quickly figure out a new meta, new hacks, new places to hide, new exploits and new play styles pretty darn quick.

Then, the farming will start all over again. Answers to your questions:
Yes

MM fails now and I doubt PGI will find anything new to create balance at a league level and probably, will create more unique issues once the limited population starts to impact choices

Individual balance is unique per mech build since our existing stock is individually customized... How PGI gets around that is a great unknown and if I were a betting person, not going to work very well... We'll see......

Stock leagues would make sense..........therefore, won't happen.

Not an area I have a lot of experience in.

Oh yes..... Fast meta evolution.

Good luck with Solaris.......

Edited by Asym, 26 February 2018 - 10:08 AM.

[Elizander]

1v1 hits a player's pride harder compared to a team game simply because there are no teammates to blame. This goes for any 1v1 game/mode in general.

As for mechs in tiers, I do agree that some adjustments at the end of each season should be done, but the main balance for quirks and such should always be based on the team play modes. Balance for 12v12 (or whatever team sizes are at the time) and just shift mechs up and down tiers in Solaris. Mechs shouldn't be buffed or nerfed purely on Solaris performance.

I don't think I'd bother with a stock/no-quirk league if it was available, but I won't scream blood murder if they add it.

Hardpoints and placements will always be important. Deadside is much more valuable in 1v1 since there is no one to shoot you in the back. As long as you know where your enemy is you can shield effectively. The arenas will also determine what hardpoint locations will be good

[C E Dwyer]

As long as this new addition has zero impact, on the standard game, other than the few weeks it takes for people to work out its a suckers party, and come back to Q.P .


I don't really care, it's the inclusion of some of this modes aspects that ..could..have an impact on the standrad game that's kept me from spending and playing more than a few games a month.

[ramp4ge]

I have a feeling the meta is going to be machine gun boating lights.

[Nesutizale]

JohnnyWayne, on 26 February 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

I wonder if you can level up mech-tiers so that everyone will end up in the same mech tier and you will never leave these potatofaced Lurm slinging window lickers behind, just like in QP.

All ending up in the same Tier? Bad idea. Also thats what QP basicly feels like allready
Its a bad idea as you would put together mechs of very different calibers that hardly work together in terms of balance.

I doubt that we will see much LRMs in S7. You can get to the enemy very quickly even in an assault, so they are of no use.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Cathy, on 26 February 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

As long as this new addition has zero impact, on the standard game, other than the few weeks it takes for people to work out its a suckers party, and come back to Q.P .


I don't really care, it's the inclusion of some of this modes aspects that ..could..have an impact on the standrad game that's kept me from spending and playing more than a few games a month.

Yeah I am a bit concerned myself. I mean ever since they tightened up the Match Making tiers and made it so Tier 1 only sees Tier 1 and 2 players, the que time for a Tier 1 match is a bit on the long side as is. Considering how many competitive players Tier 1 and 2 has in comparison to other Tiers, I am really concerned that the ques are going to get insanely long. I mean having to sit in a Que 5 minutes to play one 10 minute match isn't going to cut it.

[ForceUser]

There's some confusion how the Divisions will work.

First off there won't be any tiers. Every player will have their own elo. Actual proper elo, like in LoL. This is possible because the game modes are 1v1 and 2v2.

Secondly every player will have a separate elo for every one of the 7 Divisions AND for 1v1 and 2v2 for a total of 14 elos.

Not sure if the elo gets reset ever season but every season is 3 months.

Now Divisions is how mechs themselves are organised depending on thier strongest, most meta build possible on each variant. So you might have different Kodiak variants in division 1, 3, 4 and 6 for example and this is not per player, but globally.

Every 3 months they may move mechs from one division to another, as a way to balance the mechs in Solaris without having to change their stats and effect normal modes. So they can continue to balance mechs based on quick play/faction play and not worry that it'll cause problems in Solaris and vice versa. Players will not move mechs form one level to another although I'm sure the performance of a mech might influence it moving or not.

Also currently matchmaking needs to find 24 people of roughly similar skill levels and also try and take weights into account. Solaris will only ever need to match 2 or 4 people of roughly similar elo to start a match. Even then if it can't, because the way elo works if the person you're playing against has a much higher elo than you and wins, your elo won't change much and neither will his. He won't be able to farm low skill players for ranking (and it SOUNDS like that will effect payouts) Yea there might be the equivalent of 14 buckets, kind of, but matches will start fast and finish fast, in theory.

There's a lot that is still unknown since it's actually going to be very different to normal play form the looks of it. I don't think anyone can make particularly accurate predictions atm on how it's going to affect the game as a whole although I do think things like playing 1v1 now will give a good idea on metas and behaviours, at least for the top divisions.

But, I mean imagine if the strongest mech you could pick up in division 7 is like, a locust or one of the terribad victors. How's that going to effect the meta for that division? You can now actually play your favourite bottom tier mech and only ever face other bottom tier mechs. That is not a thing, it's never been a thing in MWO. It's something very, very different and kind of has me excited you know.

[Nesutizale]

Thanks for clearing up some of the stuff. Totaly forgot about the ELO stuff.

As for the meta and your example with the Victor. My friend wanted to tease me and choose a Kodiak VS my Victor and activated stock loadouts. I managed to beat him, sure he overheated one time but the Victor is a surprisingly good Solaris mech. The extra JJ came in quite handy I must say.

To me that experiance also raised the question, what meta will the mechs be balanced around? If they go with the current meta for 12v12 it might become quite unbalanced.

I found ATMs and LRMs to be practical useless in 1v1 while small lasers and AC20s became much more interesting then they are now for me in QP.
Well they have to start somewhere and I hope they are flexible enough to shift mechs each season so we will have somewhat balanced leagues after a year...thats only 4 seasons.

I just hope we will hear more about S7 soon.

[JohnnyWayne]

Nesutizale, on 26 February 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:

All ending up in the same Tier? Bad idea. Also thats what QP basicly feels like allready
Its a bad idea as you would put together mechs of very different calibers that hardly work together in terms of balance.

I doubt that we will see much LRMs in S7. You can get to the enemy very quickly even in an assault, so they are of no use.

We need a sarcasm sign for this forum. So that everyone will get my ****** edgy posts right away.

[N0ni]

1) Yes, some things that work well in group won't necessary be great in 1v1/2v2. It's more than likely going to be a PPFLD/MG meta, those leading the charge being those that can aim well enough to hit the same component repeatedly.

2) PGI is taking mechs AND loadouts into account when placing them into their Tier system, i can't wait to die laughing to see how bad it is.

3) sort of ties in with 2).

4) No. That's why we have private matches with a stock option.

5) You can get away with more-- with less than stellar hardpoints, but there will always be better hardpoints.

6) Yes and no. Not really a definitive answer since you'll see both current meta and new meta at the top.

[ramp4ge]

I can't wait until the first week breaks down into Direstars and Gigadrills, and then the 2nd week everyone realizes the only thing viable is Piranhas.

[Athom83]

1) Definitely. Have already talked about this in other threads discussing the mechs themselves. https://mwomercs.com...uild-look-like/ (My post is at the top of the second page)

2) I'd say a weight range that is between the current "classes", like 20-25t, 30-45t, 50-65t, 70-85t, 90-100t.

3) They should be balancing things to fit in all modes.

4) Maybe... probably not.

5) Depends. They'll matter less in the long run, but will still be an strong factor into the "viability" in the initial engagement.

6) Definitely. A lot of the "non-meta" mechs are very strong in 1v1 and 2v2 situations but are basically useless in 12v12 or 48v48 situations.

[PoohPuss]

A question about pre-purchasing the Solaris Hero-Pack.

Are there any pre-purchase bonuses for the pack, or would I get the same items by purchasing it after the 17th of April?

[Athom83]

PoohPuss, on 27 February 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

A question about pre-purchasing the Solaris Hero-Pack.

Are there any pre-purchase bonuses for the pack, or would I get the same items by purchasing it after the 17th of April?

There are no preorder bonuses for this pack, so you can literally purchase it the day of and get the exact same thing everyone who already bought it get.

[Tordin]

My fear is that PGI might listen to whine and murdernerf the heck out of niche weapons PERFECTLY suited to 1 vs 1, duels withouth any interruption from 22 other players.
Namely Rockets, Machine Guns and Flamers.
Im upset, kinda and find it creepy to imagine those getting stomped or even banned from use in S7...
Getting flame locked? Your fault, really. When you are going up against a singular foe, its WISE to assume he/ her might have a flamer or two, machine guns and rockets.

Assume it and avoid turning into salt while PGI listens to the terrible whine and whack those weapons because of your bliss imaginging you wont come up against such duel weapons of doom.

/ semi-rant

[VitriolicViolet]

yeah my biggest concern is they will start balancing around solaris. no changes should be made based off of that mode, it will ruin QP very quickly

[Xetelian]

ramp4ge, on 26 February 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

I have a feeling the meta is going to be machine gun boating lights.

I think you grossly over estimate the effectiveness of machine guns against armor.