19 replies to this topic

[AdrenaHawk]

With gauss and peeps having linked ghost heat, and LFEs making fast tough brawlers available to both sides, I think the days of the overpowered jump sniper are dead. Can we please get some more oomph out of our JJs? Anyone else agree, or am I just missing the obvious exploit?

[nehebkau]

Isn't that what the skill tree jump-jet nodes are for?

[AdrenaHawk]

Tried it, they barely make a difference, especially for assaults. IMO, we need a straight JJ thrust increase, mainly for the bigger ones.

[Nema Nabojiv]

nehebkau, on 02 March 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

Isn't that what the skill tree jump-jet nodes are for?

the ones no one ever uses?

Also, assault JJs need to have more lift, yes. Heavy JJs seem to be kinda ok starting from two.

Edited by Nema Nabojiv, 02 March 2018 - 07:20 AM.

[adamts01]

The only way that they'll ever be the jump jets we want is if accuracy is limited the entire time a mech is airborne. Poptarting is lame anyway, I'd rather see mechs have mobility.

[Bud Crue]

nehebkau, on 02 March 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

Isn't that what the skill tree jump-jet nodes are for?

Gets me to thinking...anyone done the testing on this? I tried a left side maxed tree on a max jet jumping Cicada when the tree first dropped and didn’t really notice the difference (I think I got another 15 meters of height or something like that) and haven’t bothered with the JJ branch since (I think I still have some nodes on a BJ-3 but I’m pretty sure that’s it out of 197 mechs). I wonder what the affect would be on a mech like a Dire or Highlander assuming you were willing to invest tonnage into full jets. Pretty negligible (percentage based)? Or has anyone shown the tree to be remotely useful here? Legit curious.

[Variant1]

Jumpjets should give alot of thrust and to balanced out the poptarting make so you fall much slower. Id gladly sacrifice realistic falling to make jumpjets balanced and curb poptarting. Like in mw4 when you u use jump jets your in the air for a long time and vulnerable to enemy fire thats how jump jets should be imo

[Lucian Nostra]

nehebkau, on 02 March 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

Isn't that what the skill tree jump-jet nodes are for?

Yeah no.. JJs are already a tonnage investment causing a drop in firepower or cooling on a mech. To further sacrifice on firepower/cooling/armor to sink points into JJ skill points is to much. Not to mention no they don't really help at all anyway.

MWO asks for way to many JJs to be mounted to a mech for decent thrust levels. We really need to get good returns at the 3-4 level especially on assaults since that's all they can mount

[El Bandito]

Retain half the shake all the way down and you can buff JJs. Not before.

[process]

I think there should be opportunity for jump-sniping, but it needs to be somewhat difficult to achieve, and I don't know if that solution is reticle shake.

One concept would be to improve thrust and burn, but increase the portion of that that is horizontal thrust. Better for long distance leaps than pogo-shooting.

[AdrenaHawk]

Bud Crue, on 02 March 2018 - 07:21 AM, said:

I wonder what the affect would be on a mech like a Dire or Highlander assuming you were willing to invest tonnage into full jets. Pretty negligible (percentage based)? Or has anyone shown the tree to be remotely useful here? Legit curious.

They are, in fact, percent based, requiring you to spend 15 skill nodes to get +15% thrust (along with 125% forward thrust). I don't have the DWF-S, but it can only mount 3 JJs like the Highlander, which grant 220 thrust each. When skilled into, class 1 JJs give 253 each. With 3 fully skill noded JJs, mechlab says it gets 19 meters of height which in my little testing gets its feet on par with an Anni's head. Considering a Highlander is 10 tons lighter than the DWF, I think the Whale can barely get over a rock.

So 3 class 1 JJs on a 90 ton Highlander give 759 skilled thrust and 19 meters of height, and 6 class 5 JJs on a 25 ton Mist Lynx give 660 unskilled thrust and 62.4 meters of height. The MLX feels great to jump in (to me), while the HGN feels like it's farting in place.

Edited by AdrenaHawk, 02 March 2018 - 08:02 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Lucian Nostra, on 02 March 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

Yeah no.. JJs are already a tonnage investment causing a drop in firepower or cooling on a mech. To further sacrifice on firepower/cooling/armor to sink points into JJ skill points is to much. Not to mention no they don't really help at all anyway.

MWO asks for way to many JJs to be mounted to a mech for decent thrust levels. We really need to get good returns at the 3-4 level especially on assaults since that's all they can mount

The original issue was that mech only needed ONE JJ for near max acceleration/thrust to be effective (Blame PGI) while additional JJ provided, iirc more burn time and likely some other items. There were some jump sniping even before Highlanders then Victors were introduced but once there was the jumping assaults there was the 35 PPD with heavy metal and Atlas drives with their brawling setup could not find cover even when there was a mountain next to them.

Anyhow, many pilots did only utilize only one JJ, and again that was PGI fault on the initial setup that did not change for over a year or more. And before even making any changes to the JJ, PGI changed many other things first (OMG). Ballistic/PPC speeds, added Gauss Rifle charge up (that did need a change but I would have preferred a double pull aka double click instead of a click then release) 3x ballistic range except GR reduced to 2x...JJ reticle shaking... then they cut the nuts off of the JJs themselves. I usually ran my HL with 3-4 JJ as it allowed me to jump over my opponents and land facing their rear armor, spreading damage from my torso section to my legs... I miss my Heavy Metal...

JJ should be improved, especially heavy/assaults but not near to what they were originally for the tonnage being used.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 02 March 2018 - 07:54 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

We already have MRM/ATM poptarting, it works great, and largely unaffected by shake due to MRM spread. So, there is nothing to fear.

[PurplePuke]

I use the JJ skill nodes sometimes. It really helps with one ATM build I use; I can stay in the air long enough to get two salvos off per jump, as long as I'm not being targeted.

They have their value in some builds, so I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand.

[Mystere]

nehebkau, on 02 March 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

Isn't that what the skill tree jump-jet nodes are for?

What? Those puny "upgrades"?

[AdrenaHawk]

Of course, PGI could use the skill nodes to fix this, by doing what they did with armor nodes and giving different sized mechs different bonuses, for example: give larger mechs bigger bonuses for taking JJ nodes.

Right now, all mechs get +3% per node with 5 possible nodes requiring 15 skill points to get them all (1/6 of your 91 max). How about light mechs get +5% per jump node, medium mechs get +10%, heavy get +20% and assault get +40%. That way, baseline JJs are useful to smaller mechs but skilled JJs become useful to all mechs. The numbers could be different, but considering the investment, they really should make them worth taking.

Personally, I would prefer a straight increase to the JJs themselves, but using the skill tree could work too.

Edited by AdrenaHawk, 02 March 2018 - 08:44 AM.

[Mystere]

Variant1, on 02 March 2018 - 07:27 AM, said:

Jumpjets should give alot of thrust and to balanced out the poptarting make so you fall much slower. Id gladly sacrifice realistic falling to make jumpjets balanced and curb poptarting. Like in mw4 when you u use jump jets your in the air for a long time and vulnerable to enemy fire thats how jump jets should be imo

I'd rather they have a strong forward bias coupled with higher thrust.

[Troa Barton]

The title of this thread warrants a meme.

[Variant1]

Mystere, on 02 March 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

I'd rather they have a strong forward bias coupled with higher thrust.

sorry, i worded my post wrong. i meant to say give them high elevation jump, more jumpjets= more time in the air. But make it so mechs using jj stay in the air long and fall down slow, that way jj will be useful on all classes and they will be vulnerable in the air since they stay and fall slow.
edit:basicaly like mw4 jump jets if ya know what im sayin

Edited by Variant1, 02 March 2018 - 10:11 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Chris Lowrey, on 02 March 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

Want to stress that this change is a change that we are currently in the process of investigating.



At this time, there is no ETA, as we need to assure that any change we do push live does not result in the breaking of animations or hitboxes. So while we are happy to declare our current intention to improve this aspect of Assault Jump Jets in the future, we need to stress that this is going to be an improvement that will have to come some time after the March patch after we investigate and can ensure that any change does not cause any unforeseen issues.