Would say battlefield...but people are dumb enough to take on tanks in apcs as opposed to getting support first.
Arma 1-3 comes to mind. MW:LL does as well. When faced with an overwhelming enemy even a single one, you get out of there and teenage with allies rather than face it alone...if you personally face it at all. (But on the other end, not every light is a scout. Raven 4X, a certain Jenner (think its the K, whichever one stocks with the most armor and only 4 ML), Panther...these are fighting mechs. This is like in comparison to a Locust, a Flea (those with more than just a single ton of armor) is built to fight. Locusts not so much.
Problem is this game is woefully incomplete when compared with where the things come from.
None of which a Locust could do at that size with so little armor.
All of those games you mentioned also feature combat as a secondary role for "scouts."
MWO was always pitched to us, from the very beginning, as making all the weight classes equally effective in combat. It was supposed to avoid the sins of past Mechwarrior titles where bigger is better. It didn't quite succeed, but that ought to be the direction it strives towards.
Making Light mechs bigger runs directly counter to that goal.
Y E O N N E, on 25 February 2019 - 11:01 PM, said:
My god, BT lore is such garbage and citing it is even worse. Can we just...eject it into the sun and rebuild it?
Well the issue is, BT rebuild would not be really funny to play.
For several reasons:
all maps would be similar to polar highlands
your aiming skills are useless- auto aim all the time (because you are shooting at targets some kilometers away
you pilot skills would be useless -because of auto dodge - when your system reacts to a threat you Mech will try to evade damage
it would be similar to a modern aircraft simulator - shoot at rectangles, fire chaff and configure your ECM and hope that you survive when moving from cover to cover
Anhow Konving nailed it - the Panther is a MBM main battle mech - but its obvious that this Mech is not supposed to fight a Marauder or Warhammer - and in 90% of his life the Panther MechWarrior will not fight those beasts because they are seldom.
For making all classes equal, this idiom was only necessary because there was no real role concept that was interlocked with a good game concept. Because MWO was and is primary pure TDM your light need to be better than its supposed to be (this include invulnerability by standing on an enemys toes)
and its obvious that light mechs are not equal to heavys or assaults. A light at medium range is dead, it need either to go into very close combat (that would have been suicidie with knockdown) or keep at extreme range - although it looses when locked in a ER Large vs ER Large Laser
Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 February 2019 - 11:56 PM.
Trying to make sense of density in BT is futile. A 400 STD engine takes less crit space than a 100 XL, yet weighs 59 tons more. A Flea has the same crit space as an Atlas. Stop with volumetric scaling and the notion that all mechs are of equal density, and scale for playability. Our hangars are filled with mechs that are literally unplayable because they're so freakin massive.
Trying to make sense of density in BT is futile. A 400 STD engine takes less crit space than a 100 XL, yet weighs 59 tons more. A Flea has the same crit space as an Atlas. Stop with volumetric scaling and the notion that all mechs are of equal density, and scale for playability. Our hangars are filled with mechs that are literally unplayable because they're so freakin massive.
So.... you're saying you don't want volumetric scaling which would make assaults half the size they are today because you prefer PGI's not volumetric scaling... yet you don't like what you have today?
Karl Streiger, on 25 February 2019 - 11:51 PM, said:
Well the issue is, BT rebuild would not be really funny to play.
For several reasons:
all maps would be similar to polar highlands
your aiming skills are useless- auto aim all the time (because you are shooting at targets some kilometers away
you pilot skills would be useless -because of auto dodge - when your system reacts to a threat you Mech will try to evade damage
it would be similar to a modern aircraft simulator - shoot at rectangles, fire chaff and configure your ECM and hope that you survive when moving from cover to cover
None of this would be necessary for a rebuild of Battletech. Just because you eject the garbage of the past doesn't mean you need to update it to be a perfect recreation sim of modern warfare. If anything, you'd want to specifically avoid it because that would make it less fun, like you said. But you can do just fine by completely rejecting the notion that a light needs to be inferior to a heavy because that's dumb, or that anyone would ever run an underarmored light mech because doing so would be stupid, or by rejecting the vast majority of ALL established tonnage/crit/etc data for weapons and equipment because it's all badly balanced.
You start over from scratch with the experience you've gained and create a better game. I don't see anything wrong with removing XL engines entirely, for example, and rebalancing standard engine tonnages so they make sense. LFEs only exist because apparently it's physically disallowed to re-release BT material with everything rebalanced intelligently, so we have to create some kind of stopgap measure that lets the IS achieve a slightly better parity with the Clans. Which is silly, but so is the existence of the Clans.
LFEs only exist because apparently it's physically disallowed to re-release BT material with everything rebalanced intelligently, so we have to create some kind of stopgap measure that lets the IS achieve a slightly better parity with the Clans. Which is silly, but so is the existence of the Clans.
I'm pretty sure LFE's exist purely for fluff and variety. Battletech's combat system means it's very possible, in fact probable, that an XL mech will die from non-ST destruction than anything else. I don't think I've ever had a discussion where someone told me LFE offered a better trade off than XL in Battletech. Weight savings is king when triple crit kills are a thing.
I'm pretty sure LFE's exist purely for fluff and variety. Battletech's combat system means it's very possible, in fact probable, that an XL mech will die from non-ST destruction than anything else. I don't think I've ever had a discussion where someone told me LFE offered a better trade off than XL in Battletech. Weight savings is king when triple crit kills are a thing.
Per BT rules if you get 3 eng crits on any part of said eng (lt/rt/ct) it's a kill.
I'm aware. That's why the isXL and cXL difference in BT isn't as bad as it is in MWO.
No... the reason is there's no pinpoint accuracy in BT. Both BT and MWO use the 3crit rule and in MWO engines only receive crit damage when the component is destroyed.
Trying to make sense of density in BT is futile. A 400 STD engine takes less crit space than a 100 XL, yet weighs 59 tons more. A Flea has the same crit space as an Atlas. Stop with volumetric scaling and the notion that all mechs are of equal density, and scale for playability. Our hangars are filled with mechs that are literally unplayable because they're so freakin massive.
While I have to agree with you there Kube ….
Lemme ask this : Why are you still holding up with that game instead of curbing your losses and getting on to greener pastures ?
No... the reason is there's no pinpoint accuracy in BT. Both BT and MWO use the 3crit rule and in MWO engines only receive crit damage when the component is destroyed.
MWO's 3-crit rule is barely in the spirit of what it means in Battletech. It's the nature of BTs accuracy and the 3-crit rule combined that close the gap.
If Battletech operated under MWO crit rules... well, actually, doesn't roguetech work like that?
MWO's 3-crit rule is barely in the spirit of what it means in Battletech. It's the nature of BTs accuracy and the 3-crit rule combined that close the gap.
If Battletech operated under MWO crit rules... well, actually, doesn't roguetech work like that?
Yeah, it does. And yes, it happens very often that a mech will die from three engine crits rather than ST loss. Even LFEs are vulnerable to that in Roguetech because critting the slot the engine is occupying doesn't remove that slot from being crit all over again. It does still happen, though, that you get ST loss instead of crits, mostly from getting pegged with big upfront single shots instead of multiple impacts on the same location.
Yeah, it does. And yes, it happens very often that a mech will die from three engine crits rather than ST loss. Even LFEs are vulnerable to that in Roguetech because critting the slot the engine is occupying doesn't remove that slot from being crit all over again. It does still happen, though, that you get ST loss instead of crits, mostly from getting pegged with big upfront single shots instead of multiple impacts on the same location.
So Roguetech operates under BT:TT crit rules, not MWOs rules? I don't know, Battletech refuses to run well for me even after getting rid of all the saves and I've given up on the game entirely at this point.
one thing that just about noone seems to ever take into account is how the mechs are build. mechs are more then just an egine an weapons an external frame we have the internal structures of the mech like the frame "the bones of the mech an they can be A. standard or B. endo that is bulky an takes up more room an yet some how when we put this bulky endo into the mech the mech does not scale up because there is some open space with in the external frame for us, then we come to the myomers an this is kinda of an important part because the number of myomers with in the chsssis of a mech determine how much weight can be loaded into the mech despite how big the external frame of the mech looks, then you have gyroscopes too that takes up room an then finally the engine an the engines's with all there added heat shielding.
there so much more then oh meh mech looks to big for a 20 ton mech you have to take into account an lot more then the external frame of that mech because there an lot more going on with the internal structures of the mech.
So Roguetech operates under BT:TT crit rules, not MWOs rules? I don't know, Battletech refuses to run well for me even after getting rid of all the saves and I've given up on the game entirely at this point.
Yes, it operates under TT crit rules, including things like through-armor crits. Technically MWO and TT operate under the same rules as far as engine crits go, given that when you destroy a ST everything in that location is critted out and destroyed, and since IS XLs occupy three slots it's an automatic three crits. It's just in MWO, you automatically roll a failure on any attempt to crit an engine slot unless you blow off the entire torso.
Technically MWO and TT operate under the same rules as far as engine crits go, given that when you destroy a ST everything in that location is critted out and destroyed, and since IS XLs occupy three slots it's an automatic three crits. It's just in MWO, you automatically roll a failure on any attempt to crit an engine slot unless you blow off the entire torso.
This is such a huge difference that I fail to see how anyone could say they were the same system.
None of which a Locust could do at that size with so little armor.
All of those games you mentioned also feature combat as a secondary role for "scouts."
This is true. EVERY scout has combat as a Secondary role. Even Battletech. (Sorry last edit)
I agree with you on that. But the other guy was trying to explain that combat wasn't the mainstay of some mechs (the primary role). And you said no one would play a game like that, so I was sharing some where combat isn't the primary choice, just a choice usually in the secondary or tertiary level.
Its not the smartest choice, but I have taken on an Atlas with two Locusts. Lost 2 arms, a side torso (along with it one of those arms), and broke a foot actuator delivering the final blow as a stomp on the Atlas's chest. All while going at cruising speeds only for better accuracy. Both were Locust 1Vs and the Atlas was an AS8-D (not 7D, 8D, with the light PPCs and such). It isn't impossible for a scout to fight and take on a better enemy, but it shouldn't be the norm either.
In Battletech/Megamek this was completely doable even with miniscule amounts of armor.
In MWO where the damage is upfront and done time and time and time again in the same period without threat of overheat when the same machines with double heatsinks (the Atlas) was under constant threat of overheating, there's something really wrong. And as such, its impossible in MWO. It ignores a lot of the reasons that the rules exist.
Going into them and common misconceptions.
Spoiler
Mechs don't fire once every ten seconds. They fire a lot. But each weapon is queued once (in tabletop, in lore they fire when you pull the trigger if they are ready). ACs fire dozens of shots, MGs spam hundreds of bullets. Lasers, when the power output is described, aren't even enough to melt steel in a single shot for their 0.1 second burn, but are described as firing several times and when you put them in a laser drill calculator, if you assume it fires several times in the span of say 4 to 5 seconds, these lasers can easily burn through the amount of armor on an M1A2 Abrams' front side. And this is just that 0.1 second shot spaced out once a second. Done as the alternative for lasers as described, 1 to 2 second burn times, the 2 second burn time at a weaker output would still effectively do the same thing.
Some lasers are written like the Halo Spartan laser, you pull the trigger there's a delay (like in the HBS BT where you hear it charging) and then zap for something powerful. Some like Star Wars "blasters" where you pull the trigger and you get a short laser burst of 0.1 to 0.2 seconds and fire several of them to get the result you want. And some like Star Trek phasers where the beam lasts 1 to 2 seconds if you hold the trigger before it overheats, but could actually be released and fired again, released and fired again and as long as you don't overheat it the laserr would be able to keep going (these are noted as the least effective face-time wise, but have other advantages such as being available when you need it and leaving its overheat to your control, while other lasers either fire many times until overheating and stop working until cooled or fire a time or two and is done for a while.)
This leaves only missiles (where the 1 to 2 damage for an explosive weapon makes sense, if your ML's average damage for a half second burst is 1.67 and your 120mm AC/5's 3 shell trigger pull does 1.67), Gauss Rifles (where 15 damage for a powerful cannon makes a lot more sense when the AC/20 spams lots of shots with a 2,000 meter maximum range, and 270 meter effective range [where you can keep the recoil and accuracy in check enough to land it on one body part], and PPCs as the powerful siege cannons that tear holes through the very gates we can't even scratch in MWO...as the only upfront weapons.
Even in Solaris 7 where you can fire them more than once for upfront damage, you tend to miss more often than not and get a lot of grazing hits. Why is this? Well in Solaris 7 you can manually opt for evading/blocking.
In Battletech, this is simply assumed by the dice rolls. Unless the enemy pilot is unconscious or the enemy mech is powered off or immobile, you can't call your shot. This is because mechs dodge automatically and failing that, they try to block. This is why hits gravitate to arms despite it being nonsensical -- if you don't imagine the mech BLOCKING your shots, it really is nonsense. But that's what is going on. The Techmanual goes into detail, and 2018's Battletech Battlemech Manual follows up with explaining why you're not considered immobile (which would result in you being able to call the shot) when you are unable to leave the hex as "The mech still has plenty of room to thrash about in the 30 meters, despite not being able to leave that space." Meaning the target iisn't necessarily stationary and may still be avoiding your shots.
(There are also anti-laser aerosols as another defense mechs use, though for some reason this isn't mentioned again after 2005.)
It is because of the fact that mechs can evade and block that the Rifle, which fired 120mm, 150mm, and 190mm shells, was rendered obsolete. A mere twist of the body or block of the arm and the damage is greatly reduced by 3 points or completely missed entirely. A single projectile not going as fast as a PPC or Gauss Rifle is easily evaded or blocked by the Mech. Even by Industrial mechs. This is why despite the Heavy Rifle having blatantly superior stats to the AC/5, its considered obsolete. One shell is easily done away with no matter how powerful, while 3 to dozens of smaller ones can't be so easily dismissed.
Anyway, weapons are rated in classes for (loosely) expected damage output, heat, weight, cost, and unit of time to deliver that damage. An AC/20 shoots 4 times as fast as an equivalent AC/5. If we assume that the time index for each rating is 3 seconds, 5 seconds, whatever the case, that's the time limit the weapon has to make its rating whether its one shot, dozens, or even thousands. And since lasers and autocannons are not one shot to get the full rating of damage (the exception being the Blue Rassal ML; which has 4 negative quirks assigned to it... FOUR... that's more than most mechs ever get, even the crappiest mechs rarely have more than 3!! and this one laser has 4 negative quirks...)... welp, we wouldn't need to have upfront damage fire so often, and we could have a much better game experience.
(TL;DR)
It'd be possible and doable, if PGI understood the reason why weapons are the way they are.
But as it is, we have to super buff lights and have them break the sound barrier (an exaggeration) just to be able have them be feasibly useful and still have to worry about being insta-killed, when in BT the insta-kill nature is far less even with stock armor and inferior amounts of it. (And actual reasons that could be put into real time and translated into a game as opposed to simply "its random.")
Yes for comparison in real life a bullet can instantly kill a person, but most often it doesn't and takes several bullets to do the job. This isn't the case in MWO, where a Light even with max armor could be killed in a single shot, and as such needs to be buffed to insane degrees, given absolutely insane speeds. (But please do read what is spoilered.)
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Angel of Annihilation, on 25 February 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:
