478 replies to this topic

[Kaeb Odellas]

Battlemech tonnage would make far more sense if it was a measure of the total mass the chassis can carry, not including the mass of the underlying structure. So a 100 ton Atlas actually weighs in at 120 or 150 tons when fully loaded.

[Nightbird]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 12 March 2018 - 12:56 AM, said:

im can carry in a Catapult per Ton 24 MLRM missles .who the Place for it by 10 t ? thats 240 Missles with loadingmechanism? the complete Slotsystem and Mechlab is nonsense and works with Fantasy Objects thats have not Size...1 T of Missles the same size as a Heatsink??? with loading Mechanism ??

the models have nothing to do with the Construction rules ...we could take spheres or cubes instead of the models and they would at least be uniform in shape ... while the 'Mechsmodels' shape does not follow any rules and does not follow any rule

Battletech missiles are very small right? No more the size of a grenade as the core. The reason is to avoid big easy to intercept by AMS missiles. I can imagine 25 of them fitting in 1 ft cube crate.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Nightbird, on 12 March 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

Battletech missiles are very small right? No more the size of a grenade as the core. The reason is to avoid big easy to intercept by AMS missiles. I can imagine 25 of them fitting in 1 ft cube crate.

why we have than Big Launcher with big Holes like Catapult and timberwolf ..

and thats no small Missles



And we can Build Catapults and Timbers with 1000!!!! Missles onboard

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 12 March 2018 - 08:13 AM.

[Nightbird]

Yeah, missiles much larger than AC10 rounds doing only 1pt of damage... I'll mark it as artistic interpretation. LRMs do the same damage as infantry handheld rockets, might be longer and heavier due to propellent for range but no more than 35 lbs each...

[MW Waldorf Statler]

yes models and Constuction total different boots ...in this its total nonsense to bring rules from the construction or Density and volume by the models for Sizing and Scaling...

[Nightbird]

For artistic renditions, it's good to take them with a grain of salt. Perfection is the enemy of the good, throwing away something because of any slight flaw results in nothing ever being accomplished. Better to start with something good, like MWO today, iteratively improve upon it, like with volumetrc scaling, and eventually maybe we'll figure out the ammo thing.

[Nightbird]

25 ton nightstar, no size issues to see here!

[Shadowomega1]

Nightbird, on 12 March 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

Yeah, missiles much larger than AC10 rounds doing only 1pt of damage... I'll mark it as artistic interpretation. LRMs do the same damage as infantry handheld rockets, might be longer and heavier due to propellent for range but no more than 35 lbs each...

Yea LRMs seem to be more inline with 70mm Hydra rockets then AGM-114 Hellfire or AGM-65 Maverick missiles.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Shadowomega1, on 12 March 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

Yea LRMs seem to be more inline with 70mm Hydra rockets then AGM-114 Hellfire or AGM-65 Maverick missiles.

and now become 1000 from it in a Mech from the big Missles above we become not 50 in a Mech

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 12 March 2018 - 09:02 PM.

[Nightbird]

Would be funny if materials are all stored raw, and ammo is 3D printed as it is needed

[Fox the Apprentice]

Nightbird, on 13 March 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

Would be funny if materials are all stored raw, and ammo is 3D printed as it is needed

"I ran out of ammo"
"I still have some armor on my legs"
*presses override button to convert armor to missiles*

[Grus]

Nightbird, on 10 March 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

Unless you meant the Atlas is stuffed with feathers and that's why it's so large, in which case... touché!

sorry was out of town for a bit. But kinda, a 100 ton (whatever) could be huge or small depending on construction. Thier are 100ton tanks in battletech from my understanding that are smaller than a battlemech. So adjusting the mech's in this game like the OP said wouldn't work. Parts of the internals are very heavy in compassion to parts on the mech itself. (Or can be) thus scalding off the shear weight class wouldn't be effective.

[Seranov]

Nightbird, on 12 March 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

25 ton nightstar, no size issues to see here!

Oh god it's so cute.

[Nightbird]

Grus, on 13 March 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

sorry was out of town for a bit. But kinda, a 100 ton (whatever) could be huge or small depending on construction. Thier are 100ton tanks in battletech from my understanding that are smaller than a battlemech. So adjusting the mech's in this game like the OP said wouldn't work. Parts of the internals are very heavy in compassion to parts on the mech itself. (Or can be) thus scalding off the shear weight class wouldn't be effective.

Welcome back! You only missed a lot of... cough... free bumps!


My thoughts on non-uniform density is below, I welcome your thoughts!

Nightbird, on 05 March 2018 - 08:07 PM, said:

So I got a question. I've been thinking though the density question, and here's what I got.

Say we start with a standard structure and standard armor Commando and Atlas.

(1) 10% of the weight goes to structure, and 20% (approx) goes to armor. The structure and armor should be the same density, given how it's all swappable (in case of structure as scrap). At this point, we've used up 30% of the total weight and at the same density for both mechs.

(2) The remaining 70% of the tonnage goes into the 53 free slots. We know the slots are the same size, since if they scaled with tonnage a 3 slot DHS on a Commando would take up less than 1 slot on an Atlas, which is not the case. It doesn't matter which slots you fill and which slots you leave empty, you have 17.5 tons versus 70 tons going into the same sized 53 slots.

We don't know what % of the total volume the structure and armor take up, but we do know that for 30% of the total tonnage, the density is the same, and for the other 70%, the Atlas is much more dense (4x more). Right? Or can there be other 'empty space' in a mech that is not part of the slot system?

If I didn't miss anything really obvious, and heavier mechs are more dense than lighter mechs, then the scales I drew would err on the side of the mechs could be closer together in volume... in other words PGI would be even more wrong as they make heavier mechs much less density than lighter mechs.

[Grus]

Nightbird, on 13 March 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

Welcome back! You only missed a lot of... cough... free bumps!


My thoughts on non-uniform density is below, I welcome your thoughts!




If I didn't miss anything really obvious, and heavier mechs are more dense than lighter mechs, then the scales I drew would err on the side of the mechs could be closer together in volume... in other words PGI would be even more wrong as they make heavier mechs much less density than lighter mechs.

ok so on the STR/Armor bit; for reference;

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Endo_Steel
http://www.sarna.net...o-Fibrous_Armor
http://www.sarna.net...Combat_Vehicles)&_Vehicles=
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chassis



1) STR: Now with standard vs Endo for example. The std version takes up less space but is heavier and the Endo is lighter but bulkier.. So to expand the STD structure uses a more compact construction but has more weight. (1kg of steel (see vid)) vs the Endo using similar materials but in a different manufacturing technique to make it lighter. (1kg of feathers(see vid)) So with that the size dosnt necessarily make it "heavier" just means it takes up more space. A 10cm cube of DU will be heavier than a 10cm cube of aluminum even though they take up the same volume.

2) so for the STD armor vs the FF. its really down to the bulk. From what ive read and how i understand it there is a "cap" to the armor value you can put on a mech. so if youve got the tonnage to max out said value the only thing FF will do is give you that same max rating for less tonnage but more space. so again we have a lighter item that provides the same armor "value" per ton but is less heavy (dense) than its counter part.

So bringing this together. if you are going to change the size of a mech then that's fine, but you cant dictate how much or why just off the weight of the mech, let alone its "bulk".

You have to think of a Battlemech... like a bottle. (Bear with me) take a water bottle, if its empty did you change the volume of the bottle? No, you did change its mass. but if you fill it up again you didnt change its volume but you did make it gain mass.

Edited by Grus, 13 March 2018 - 04:04 PM.

[Nightbird]

Let's just start with STD structure and STD armor for different tonnage mechs, is the argument sound?

[Grus]

Nightbird, on 13 March 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

Let's just start with STD structure and STD armor for different tonnage mechs, is the argument sound?

Not really, just like for example; A) one body builder could wear more "armor" than say you're average MWO player lol.

it really depends on what the "bones" of a mech can take weight wise. better example would be say a Heavy and a heavy. same tonnage. one built for speed and one for armor. the one built for armor would be more dense while the one for speed would be less dense.

So lets go back to the Bottle example. lets take a 2Liter for example. if i fill it with water its still going to take out the same space (volume) but if i fill it with lead it will weigh a lot more (mass) see what im getting at?

[Grus]

goes back to a saying we had in the Army, 150lbs of light weight tech is still 150lbs..

[Nightbird]

Is a ton of STD armor the same volume on a light as on an assault?
Is a ton of STD structure the same volume on a light as on an assault?
Is 53 slots the same size on a light as on an assault?

[Grus]

Nightbird, on 13 March 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

Is a ton of STD armor the same volume on a light as on an assault?
Is a ton of STD structure the same volume on a light as on an assault?
Is 53 slots the same size on a light as on an assault?

ahh ok now i get what you're saying. so yes a ton of STD armor is the same no matter what its on. But keep in mind that armor is spread over the smaller mech more than the heavier one due to size.

Same for the structure, think of smaller (younger) skeleton vs a larger (adult) skeleton.

crit slots are crit slots, dosnt matter how much the item weighs.

in other words take a cXL for example. no matter what it still takes up the same slots. but they can range in weight.