18 replies to this topic

[0Jiggs0]

In the current design, the only determining factor regarding Ghost Heat generation is the number of weapons fired within a specific group. Using the IS Gauss/PPC group as an example:

No Penalty
3x Light PPC = 15 damage (this the only 3 PPC/Gauss combo without a penalty)
2x PPC = 20 damage
1x Heavy PPC, 1x PPC = 25 damage
2x Heavy PPC = 30 damage
2x Gauss = 30 damage
1x Heavy PPC, 1x Gauss = 30 damage
2x Heavy Gauss = 50 damage

Ghost Heat
1x Light Gauss, 2x Light PPC = 18 damage
1x PPC, 2x Light PPC = 20 damage
1x Heavy PPC, 2x Light PPC = 25 damage
1x Heavy PPC, 1x PPC, 1x Light PPC = 30 damage
1x Gauss, 1x PPC, 1x Light PPC = 30 damage
3x PPC = 30 damage
1x Heavy Gauss, 1x Heavy PPC, 1x PPC = 50 damage


The efficacy (or lack thereof) of the combinations shown notwithstanding, why should the same amount of damage from the same weapon group be acceptable in one instance, but not in another? If the purpose of the Ghost Heat system is to mitigate high-alpha builds, its restrictions should be focused on the damage output from each weapon group. Why is this not the case?

[Y E O N N E]

Because the quality of the damage is different and because the inherent limitations to each weapon system changes how much damage it needs to do to be worthwhile.

[Kiiyor]

0Jiggs0, on 05 March 2018 - 01:10 AM, said:

In the current design, the only determining factor regarding Ghost Heat generation is the number of weapons fired within a specific group. Using the IS Gauss/PPC group as an example:

No Penalty
3x Light PPC = 15 damage (this the only 3 PPC/Gauss combo without a penalty)
2x PPC = 20 damage
1x Heavy PPC, 1x PPC = 25 damage
2x Heavy PPC = 30 damage
2x Gauss = 30 damage
1x Heavy PPC, 1x Gauss = 30 damage
2x Heavy Gauss = 50 damage

Ghost Heat
1x Light Gauss, 2x Light PPC = 18 damage
1x PPC, 2x Light PPC = 20 damage
1x Heavy PPC, 2x Light PPC = 25 damage
1x Heavy PPC, 1x PPC, 1x Light PPC = 30 damage
1x Gauss, 1x PPC, 1x Light PPC = 30 damage
3x PPC = 30 damage
1x Heavy Gauss, 1x Heavy PPC, 1x PPC = 50 damage


The efficacy (or lack thereof) of the combinations shown notwithstanding, why should the same amount of damage from the same weapon group be acceptable in one instance, but not in another? If the purpose of the Ghost Heat system is to mitigate high-alpha builds, its restrictions should be focused on the damage output from each weapon group. Why is this not the case?

There's other factors other than damage - cooldown, duration, range, velocity ... it's designed to help discourage extreme boating of identical weapon systems, or weapon systems that complement each other well. A lot of the GH systems you mentioned above have similar projectile speeds, making it easier to dump a lot of damage into one spot in a short amount of time.

It's not a perfect system, (probably not even a good system, but it's better than nothing) but it does (sort of) help kerb the ridiculousness of power creep with mechs with a crapload of hardpoints, or hardpoints that allow lots of complementary weapon systems to be fielded.

[Peter2k]

I would say PGI was trying to balance ghost heat around a value of 30 without penalty
it worked well when firing 2 AC 20 gave you terrible heat on your Jaeger
that was way before we had all this new tech, hell even clans


and frankly I think they gave up on doing anything with it after the last balance attempt failed
a second bar that filled up with damage dealt and applied heat to your heat bar, because "the reactor gets taxed more"

i.e.
Power Draw
https://mwomercs.com...w-it-will-work/


as well as PGI doesn't seem to know where to go with balance
at least that's what I gathered from the feedback to the community driven balance attempt


personally I "loved" the "don't tell us numbers" answer

me thinks we would say lasers need a bit less damage, someone divides the damage by 10, people complain and PGI would say they tried and it didn't work out (that's just an example btw)

Kiiyor, on 05 March 2018 - 01:25 AM, said:

but it's better than nothing

sadly agree

I also think it could be more elegant, but I think the chance for making it worse is higher then something good coming out of changing the whole thing

Edited by Peter2k, 05 March 2018 - 01:31 AM.

[0Jiggs0]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 March 2018 - 01:25 AM, said:

Because the quality of the damage is different and because the inherent limitations to each weapon system changes how much damage it needs to do to be worthwhile.

Of course. Pinpoint, duration, and spread weapons should all be valuated by their respective faults and merits. I was more curious about weapons that appear very similar in performance, but trigger Ghost Heat in different circumstances. I should have been more specific in naming the topic.

Kiiyor, on 05 March 2018 - 01:25 AM, said:

There's other factors other than damage - cooldown, duration, range, velocity ... it's designed to help discourage extreme boating of identical weapon systems, or weapon systems that complement each other well. A lot of the GH systems you mentioned above have similar projectile speeds, making it easier to dump a lot of damage into one spot in a short amount of time.

I was going to say boating would be made irrelevant by locking Ghost Heat to a maximum damage value for each weapon group, but then I thought about what the game might look like in that hypothetical state. If, in this fictional version of the game, the PPC/Gauss group were locked to 30 damage from any combo, the advantage would go to the mechs able to mount the max damage of a weapon group at the lowest possible weight...which would encourage boating smaller weapons for the tonnage savings. Weapons may technically be better balanced that way, but mechs would not. Those with fewer hardpoints would need to take larger, heavier weapons to deal the same damage at the same ranges, leaving them unable to mount or have space for other equipment.

Looking at the setups in my original post, those with a higher tonnage tend to get a pass on the Ghost Heat penalty. The 3xPPC combo bucks that trend though, being heavier than 2xHPPC. So the determination may be made by DPS per ton (the 3xPPC being 1.08 versus .6 for 2xHPPC), but that is something to investigate later.

I feel like I have a broader perspective of this mechanic now. Thanks for the replies everyone.

[Scyther]

Not saying that I think Ghost Heat is set up properly, but another issue is that weapons combinations are 'chunky'. You can't use fractions/multipliers on a weapon (in Ghost Heat), it either fires or it doesn't. So along with all the factors mentioned above, you then have to say 'do we want to allow this combo, even if it strays from our target number'?

[Khobai]

Quote

Of course. Pinpoint, duration, and spread weapons should all be valuated by their respective faults and merits. I was more curious about weapons that appear very similar in performance, but trigger Ghost Heat in different circumstances. I should have been more specific in naming the topic.

Yes there are a lot of failures in that regard.

Like CERMLs and ISERMLs having the same ghost heat limit. it makes no sense.

or x3 PPC being ghost heated but x2 HPPC being fine. again it makes no sense.

or SRM4s/SRM6s being ghost heated at x4 but MRM30 x2 is fine...

or microlasers being ghost heated at 8... why?

if were going to keep ghost heat, and not switch to energy draw, then ghost heat needs a massive consistency update.

Edited by Khobai, 06 March 2018 - 05:09 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Damage isn't the only factor that matters. How the damage spreads, the velocity and range of the weapons, and the heat generated to fire that damage are all factors.

[RaptorRage]

Everything that ghost heat does could be done instead by just changing damage, heat and cooldown times of the base weapon stats. If the point of GH is to reduce or slow down alpha damage when boating weapons the damage could be lowered, the heat could be raised and the cooldown can be increased. At least it would be straightforward to understand instead of having to account for arbitrary weapon combinations having different heat effects for the same damage.

[MechaBattler]

@RaptorRage If they changed individual weapon stats to compensate for boating and especially the boating of pin point weapons. Then the weapons would be nerfed to near worthlessness unless boated. GH is a simple fix and effective enough.

[Andi Nagasia]

their was a system called Energy Draw that was tested,
it got good initial reviews, but had problems later on,
(Energy Draw PTS Archive)

[MechaBattler]

Energy Draw was roundly bashed by a lot of the community. And only tentatively said to have potential if there was more work put into it. But the popular opinion of it being trash drowned out any good will it may have had. And PGI didn't put much further work into the system. Instead testing out weapon changes and heat dissipaton/cap changes. But by that point the only way to test it was to organize private matches with friends.

I think people just didn't like that it centered around punishing anything about 30 damage with extra heat. Though when I tested it the gain was negligible until you broke past 40 damage. It also didn't take into account pinpoint damage, range, or duration. I believe scatter weapon damage was valued as less. So something like MRMs would be able to go past 30 without incurring the penalty, to a point.

It was a good concept. But it needed fine tuning to replace the simpler and entirely adequate Ghost Heat mechanic.

[Nightbird]

PGI MAFFs

[Moonlight Grimoire]

The simple answer is that these weapons were given the PPC tag, the Gauss tag, and so forth so they ghost heat with other weapons in the same manner without any attention paid to their damage values. Quick fix for a few things but mostly damaging to a lot of things.

And also proving why ghost heat is a horrible flawed system and why PGI should have just done a clean (and still should do) power draw system instead of mucking around with allowing loopholes through n-1 ghost heat group + n-1 ghost heat group 2 to get super damage and continue the power creep.

[Yosharian]

My Cougar has an alpha of 53 at 450m with 19 double heat sinks

But yeah, PPCs are clearly the problem =D

[ThreeStooges]

KGC still can't fire both its stock guns at the same time without 75% heat. But that clan assault can hll x3 alpha you just fine.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 March 2018 - 01:25 AM, said:

Because the quality of the damage is different and because the inherent limitations to each weapon system changes how much damage it needs to do to be worthwhile.

Now you went and did it.

Why bring logic here? WHY????

[Appogee]

0Jiggs0, on 05 March 2018 - 01:10 AM, said:

HOST HEAT IS UNRELATED TO DAMAGE OUTPUT. WHY IS THAT?

Because Paul wanted it that way. That is the simple, truthful answer.

Energy Draw was conceptually a good replacement for Ghost Heat. However, instead of replacing Ghost Heat, Paul made it an overlay in addition to Ghost Heat... further complicating an already unintuitive balancing mechanic.

It boggles the mind, really.

Edited by Appogee, 06 March 2018 - 11:21 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

You forgot to take tonnage and bulk into account.

The "no GH" combos should ask for more sacrifice in general, though it's not always true.